Are Things Getting Better?

[RG]

I was a hunting guide/packer in Wyoming, Montana, and a little bit in Idaho in the 1980's and early 90's, pre-wolf.  I know how things were then and I've watched with interest the past years as all the wolf introduction and aftermath has occurred.  I have friends who hunt every year in Idaho and have joined them recently as well.  I also look with interest at all the posts on this forum from the states listed above.

Am I wrong or has the hunting gotten better the past few years?  My friends do well there and I certainly see a lot of nice animals on here.   I'm not a biologist but it seems like maybe, a) the game has learned to adapt better to the presence of wolves, b) the wolf hunting seasons and efforts by the states to reduce the populations has had a positive impact, c) both have happened, or d) I'm totally wrong and am reading everything wrong.

Does anybody else have an opinion or observation on this?  It just seems like maybe all is not lost as we originally believed. 

[jackelope]

I can't even believe you actual just posted that. Better hunting since wolves??

[3nails]

 Someone will be along shortly to say, "See, I told you! blah blah blah, they aren't the big bad wolf, blah blah blah, the hunting is still great blah blah blah....." Wait for it..........

[jasnt]

Seems like trolling to me. This topic has been covered to death. We argue till the page count gets up there and then everyone leaves the thread feeling exactly as they did before it started.  You'll get 1000 answers to this subject.  And you could bet money on the guys that will say yes and who will say no.

[KFhunter]

I can't even believe you actual just posted that. Better hunting since wolves??

The way I read is he's asking if it's gotten better in the last several years,  I do believe it has gotten better.

I was a hunting guide/packer in Wyoming, Montana, and a little bit in Idaho in the 1980's and early 90's, pre-wolf.  I know how things were then and I've watched with interest the past years as all the wolf introduction and aftermath has occurred.  I have friends who hunt every year in Idaho and have joined them recently as well.  I also look with interest at all the posts on this forum from the states listed above.

Am I wrong or has the hunting gotten better the past few years?  My friends do well there and I certainly see a lot of nice animals on here.   I'm not a biologist but it seems like maybe, a) the game has learned to adapt better to the presence of wolves, b) the wolf hunting seasons and efforts by the states to reduce the populations has had a positive impact, c) both have happened, or d) I'm totally wrong and am reading everything wrong.

Does anybody else have an opinion or observation on this?  It just seems like maybe all is not lost as we originally believed. 

a) the game has learned to adapt better to the presence of wolves, 

Yes, the coyotes have shown us in YNP that they've adapted very well and are actually back to pre-wolf numbers.  All the argument that wolves will reduce the coyote population was true for a time, now it's not true.  The Elk have also adapted, they've learn to stay near the black top and people.     Even hanging near people doesn't always work though.  This was very near to people and right next to a bridge over the Yellowstone river.  The only thing helping elk is killing wolves by the hundreds.
Wolf vs Elk

b) the wolf hunting seasons and efforts by the states to reduce the populations has had a positive impact, 

Absolutely!  Idaho's aggressive wolf management from all sources has helped greatly.  They allow pro-wolf hunters to go to Idaho and espouse how the wolves aren't having as big an effect on wolves as everyone cries about...well duh    The wolves are being hunted and killed giving the Elk some breathing room.   Unchecked the hunting would be far worse than it is.  Idaho is a success story in the making and it's taken aggressive management by government officials, poachers and pretty much everyone in the state shooting wolves on sight to allow this.   

 

Washington is screwed. WDFW hasn't taken into account when looking at Idaho models how Idahoan's would take matters into their own hands to help cull back the wolf population with broad government support.  We won't see that in Washington.  Our wolves will run rampant and largely unchecked.

[jackelope]

Mine was a lame attempt at sarcastic humor. I agree. I think the hunting has gotten better here in general. Maybe the same can't be said for specific areas or GMU's of the state but overall I think the quality of animals taken has improved.

[Miles]

The area I hunt has wolves in it.  I would say that in general the # of deer/bucks seen has been gradually decreasing each year.  The "trophy quality" is still there, but certainly not the number of deer that I would expect there to be.

[RG]

Geez, take a breath, I'm not pro wolf, I hate the fact that wolves came back. I guided in the Gardiner Montana area in the peak if that herd. My last season as a guide my clients took 12 bulls so I know the difference.  I'm asking an honest question here because I know people still bring home game from these states and it seems to me like the past few years have been better than the ones before that. I'm looking at a picture on this forum if 6 muley bucks, another that is titled something about an Idaho state record, another one day Montana elk hunt with a great bull, my buddies filled out on elk last year and I haven't heard the result from this year.

Before you knee jerk people start bashing me let me tell you what I hope happens. I hope the hunting improves enough that people keep hunting with outfitters like Bearpaw and a bunch of other guys who were just about devastated by the wolf reintro. It seems like the world isn't completely destroyed and maybe its still worth buying a tag and hunting in these wolf states. Obviously it's not the same as it was but it's still worth going there.

We have a wolf problem in Washington for sure but it's really a wolf management problem now because wolves are here and aren't being managed.

[jasnt]

Geez, take a breath, I'm not pro wolf, I hate the fact that wolves came back. I guided in the Gardiner Montana area in the peak if that herd. My last season as a guide my clients took 12 bulls so I know the difference.  I'm asking an honest question here because I know people still bring home game from these states and it seems to me like the past few years have been better than the ones before that. I'm looking at a picture on this forum if 6 muley bucks, another that is titled something about an Idaho state record, another one day Montana elk hunt with a great bull, my buddies filled out on elk last year and I haven't heard the result from this year.

Before you knee jerk people start bashing me let me tell you what I hope happens. I hope the hunting improves enough that people keep hunting with outfitters like Bearpaw and a bunch of other guys who were just about devastated by the wolf reintro. It seems like the world isn't completely destroyed and maybe its still worth buying a tag and hunting in these wolf states. Obviously it's not the same as it was but it's still worth going there.

We have a wolf problem in Washington for sure but it's really a wolf management problem now because wolves are here and aren't being managed.

I think I miss understood your first post.  I do see what your saying and agree with your 2nd post. I don't think we should ever give up. I've never hunted any other states but faaaar south eastern Montana when I was a kid.  I hope the hunting improves in mo,wy,id.  And I hope I get to hunt those states as well some day

[chukar58]

Would WDFW really have a special permit or a general season to hunt wolves in this state to manage a rampant wolf population?  Most likely not ever!

[KFhunter]

Geez, take a breath, I'm not pro wolf, I hate the fact that wolves came back. I guided in the Gardiner Montana area in the peak if that herd. My last season as a guide my clients took 12 bulls so I know the difference.  I'm asking an honest question here because I know people still bring home game from these states and it seems to me like the past few years have been better than the ones before that. I'm looking at a picture on this forum if 6 muley bucks, another that is titled something about an Idaho state record, another one day Montana elk hunt with a great bull, my buddies filled out on elk last year and I haven't heard the result from this year.

Before you knee jerk people start bashing me let me tell you what I hope happens. I hope the hunting improves enough that people keep hunting with outfitters like Bearpaw and a bunch of other guys who were just about devastated by the wolf reintro. It seems like the world isn't completely destroyed and maybe its still worth buying a tag and hunting in these wolf states. Obviously it's not the same as it was but it's still worth going there.

We have a wolf problem in Washington for sure but it's really a wolf management problem now because wolves are here and aren't being managed.

I wasn't bashing you or having a knee jerk that I know of, perhaps you misunderstand me 
I already know you aren't pro-wolf and I certainly wasn't bashing you.  Sorry for the confusion if you're referring to me.

[Special T]

ID units hardest hit by wolves are the most remote.... the exact opposite of what the greatest hunting used to be.

Since wolves are generally hard to hunt i believe that animals are safer closer to people. People protect the deer/elk and in turn make it easier to shoot deer/elk. "hunting" may be better because deer and elk are not as remote and come closer to humans for protection, not because they are trying to avoid the elements.  I think its more perception than "better" hunting....

[RG]

KF Hunter. I'm fine with what you posted. I never intended for this question to turn into an argument but when somebody says I can't believe you just posted that and another throws out the word "trolling" I figured there might be some big angry emotional outcry again which wasn't even relevant to where I was trying to go.  I suspect I'm seeing a pattern and know that a number of people on here hunt those states and live there too.  I was trying to compare observations if you will.  I wasn't trying to get yelled at so to speak. It seems like things have calmed down now so that's good.

[Todd_ID]

Things are most decidedly not getting better from what I see.  The perception that it may be better is changing for three reasons: internet, state marketing, and hunter adaptation.

The internet allows us to see how others around the world have done the minute they've done it.  This is unprecedented in hunting's history.  What's in front of us seems to be the "new" reality, so it seems that you're seeing more success.  You're correct, you're "seeing" more success, but success rates are not better.

The states are losing money from the lack of non-resident sales at such a rapid clip that they've been inventing new ways to sugar-coat the truth.  Need an area to be attractive?  Just lower the herd targets and tell the biologists to tell anyone who calls that Unit XYZ is so far ABOVE our target that it has the potential to be the best hunting ever: tag sold, state won, but the hunting experience for that individual was likely 10% what it would have been 10 years ago, so he won't be back unless he bought the 3 year license that was a gimmick to try to trap non-residents into longer time commitments.

The third reason for the perception of the hunting getting better is that hunters have had to adapt to the new "normal" of hunting.  There are simply no elk left in the backcountry, so they're down lower and closer to access points.  This has congregated the hunters into certain areas with access.  A concentration of hunters makes it seem like success rates MUST be better because of all the people hunting there.  And an elk hanging in every third camp MUST be better, when, in fact, "better" would mean 3 elk hanging in every camp.

There's plenty of other reasons for the perception that hunting is getting better, but the biggest is the fact that we now get to see what success has happened here on hunt-wa. 

Your friends' consistent success means they would have killed elk back when the hunting was actually good, too.  The rule hasn't changed: 10% of the people will always kill 90% of the elk.

[RG]

OK, and I'm comparing to 4 or 5 years ago, not 10+.