Are Things Getting Better?

[6x6in6]

As it pertains to Wyoming....
Some areas are basically void of wolves and the animals seem to be going thru the typical fluctuations in their head count.
Many to most have declined in numbers that I see when I'm there.  That does not necessarily mean there are less animals but it would make some sense too.
The moose have really taken a beating and tag numbers are gradually reducing every year.
The biggest thing I've noticed in WY over the past 20 years, in particular the last 6-8, is the level of high alert the elk are on in areas known to have wolves.  They spend less time out munching in the daylight hours in the open.  Stalking has really become a serious challenge - fun - but frustrating too.  A snap of a branch sends them off on a rampage to escape. 
The elk also seem to bail out earlier in lesser snow depths.  I suspect that may have something to do with how quickly they can escape.

[huntnnw]

I read from IDFG that this last count on the elk in the lolo herd was a first time they have seen a increase in elk since pre wolf.

[idahohuntr]

RG: I would say without hesitation things have improved from 4 or 5 years ago and so you are not alone in your observation. 

A lot of this is a matter of what your benchmark is though.  If you were hunting Lolo in 1984...relative to today...you would cry.  But for most units relative to 2009 or 2010...yea, things are better...much better.  I saw more bucks and bulls in Idaho hunting and scouting this year than I have in a long time.  Many factors at play, but very certainly recovery from the back to back hard winters in 08 and 09 is what I believe is driving the relatively large number of decent bucks I've been seeing.

While Todd mentioned that internet/marketing etc. may improve the perception of hunting/success I would also argue the same thing for the exaggeration of the impacts of wolves.  Bottom line, I don't believe the perceptions of improvements in big game numbers/quality in Idaho relative to recent times are smoke and mirrors.  If you hunt hard you will have opportunities in Idaho...probably more opportunities than a given level of effort would have afforded you 5 years ago.

[KFhunter]

easy winters have made the Elk hunting better in the last few years 
Easy winters certainty didn't hurt, but it's the wholesale slaughter of wolves that's making the biggest difference.


but I have to concede one bad winter can reverse all of that,  belly deep snow's down low that let the wolves run on top while the elk struggle to move would erase all the gains of the last few years.  I hope IDFG is ready for some feeding programs and protection from wolves near those stations.

I've watched moose struggle to move in snow that had them high centered, snowmobiling.   Talk about easy prey, that poor old girl was just high centered and couldn't move, heck I could have killed her with a spear. 

[ribka]

would have to agree with Todd. I know 1/2 doz back country outfitters who went out of business the past 5 years in ID and MT because of wolves and dwindling elk and deer numbers. These were all experienced and seasoned guides. I know spending time in n ID and NW MT there are a lot fewer animals in the back country.

Plus as mentioned easier winters the past decade or so. Be interesting to see what happens with a few back to back hard winters plus the increasing wolf population. My guess would be not very good for elk moose and deer

Things are most decidedly not getting better from what I see.  The perception that it may be better is changing for three reasons: internet, state marketing, and hunter adaptation.

The internet allows us to see how others around the world have done the minute they've done it.  This is unprecedented in hunting's history.  What's in front of us seems to be the "new" reality, so it seems that you're seeing more success.  You're correct, you're "seeing" more success, but success rates are not better.

The states are losing money from the lack of non-resident sales at such a rapid clip that they've been inventing new ways to sugar-coat the truth.  Need an area to be attractive?  Just lower the herd targets and tell the biologists to tell anyone who calls that Unit XYZ is so far ABOVE our target that it has the potential to be the best hunting ever: tag sold, state won, but the hunting experience for that individual was likely 10% what it would have been 10 years ago, so he won't be back unless he bought the 3 year license that was a gimmick to try to trap non-residents into longer time commitments.

The third reason for the perception of the hunting getting better is that hunters have had to adapt to the new "normal" of hunting.  There are simply no elk left in the backcountry, so they're down lower and closer to access points.  This has congregated the hunters into certain areas with access.  A concentration of hunters makes it seem like success rates MUST be better because of all the people hunting there.  And an elk hanging in every third camp MUST be better, when, in fact, "better" would mean 3 elk hanging in every camp.

There's plenty of other reasons for the perception that hunting is getting better, but the biggest is the fact that we now get to see what success has happened here on hunt-wa. 

Your friends' consistent success means they would have killed elk back when the hunting was actually good, too.  The rule hasn't changed: 10% of the people will always kill 90% of the elk.

[kukusya]

Good wolf its a DEAD wolf 

[idahohuntr]

would have to agree with Todd. I know 1/2 doz back country outfitters who went out of business the past 5 years in ID and MT because of wolves and dwindling elk and deer numbers. These were all experienced and seasoned guides. I know spending time in n ID and NW MT there are a lot fewer animals in the back country.

Is it possible the greatest recession the United States has endured since the great depression also played a role in outfitters going out of business in the last 5 years? 

Plus as mentioned easier winters the past decade or so. Be interesting to see what happens with a few back to back hard winters plus the increasing wolf population. My guess would be not very good for elk moose and deer

In Idaho, the two years with the highest number of estimated wolves was 2008 and 2009...which coincides exactly with 2 pretty tough winters.

[RG]

would have to agree with Todd. I know 1/2 doz back country outfitters who went out of business the past 5 years in ID and MT because of wolves and dwindling elk and deer numbers. These were all experienced and seasoned guides. I know spending time in n ID and NW MT there are a lot fewer animals in the back country.

Ribka, I think your statement above is true..

And.. One of the ways wolves have contributed to outfitters going out of business is that paying clients have been led to believe there are no game animals left in wolf states so they take their money to Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, etc instead. I believe the outfitter/guide associations or state tourism boards need to work harder and collectively to inform the out of state guys with money to spend that there are still trophies to be taken in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.  It's not like it was in the past but its still there. The doom and gloom naysayers have convinced clients that the game is extinct. That's not true based on the photos I'm seeing here and elsewhere.  That's not a pro wolf statement it's an observation.

Obviously wolves aren't going away, the fight to aggressively manage them must continue.   But there can be "life after wolves" too.  That education and message should go out from my perspective. It's a business decision, sales promotion.

[Magnum_Willys]

Yea things are getting better in Idaho in areas we hunt compared to 4-5 years ago I think due to:

1) Wolves clean out an area and then move on - that area rebounds then they return.  I'm seeing the rebound in area we hunt
2) Wolves are getting lots of hunting pressure from locals year-round from snowmobiles, trapping, calling, baiting etc. 
3) Animals are adapting better to the wolves
4) global warming easier winters

[idahohuntr]

The doom and gloom naysayers have convinced clients that the game is extinct. That's not true based on the photos I'm seeing here and elsewhere.  That's not a pro wolf statement it's an observation.

Obviously wolves aren't going away, the fight to aggressively manage them must continue.   But there can be "life after wolves" too. 

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!  Amen.

[kentrek]

I also agree things have gotten alil better, it was a fantastic year for elk in our area....infact I don't know anybody who didn't tag out....i wish we'd have no wolves but at least now they seem to be running scared

If you plan on hunting Idaho for elk you might want to buy your tags early for 2015

[timberfaller]

 :chuckle:4) global warming easier winters

Well if you believe ole wise tales,  the Whitetail my son in law got Saturday, had the most FAT in his body I've ever seen going to be tasty tasty

Easy winter or hard winter coming???

[Special T]

And.. One of the ways wolves have contributed to outfitters going out of business is that paying clients have been led to believe there are no game animals left in wolf states so they take their money to Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, etc instead. I believe the outfitter/guide associations or state tourism boards need to work harder and collectively to inform the out of state guys with money to spend that there are still trophies to be taken in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.  . The doom and gloom naysayers have convinced clients that the game is extinct. That's not true It's not like it was in the past but its still therebased on the photos I'm seeing here and elsewhere.  That's not a pro wolf statement it's an observation.

The one guide i used in MT is no longer in business.

If you realize that the cost of going on a guided hunt in any rockymountiain state is going to cost similar, I would pick Colorado or AZ before ID or MT. Does the economy have something to do with outfitters going out of business? you bet! I would bet tho it makes spending that hard earned  $ more planned out than in the past. Spending pool shrinks  and guess what people KNOW that AZ and Colorado have not had the problems with  wolves yet so the likelyhood of seeing more animals is much higher.

[Stein]

The one guide i used in MT is no longer in business.

If you realize that the cost of going on a guided hunt in any rockymountiain state is going to cost similar, I would pick Colorado or AZ before ID or MT. Does the economy have something to do with outfitters going out of business? you bet! I would bet tho it makes spending that hard earned  $ more planned out than in the past. Spending pool shrinks  and guess what people KNOW that AZ and Colorado have not had the problems with  wolves yet so the likelyhood of seeing more animals is much higher.

Plus, a MT nonresident elk tag is now $821 compared with $601 for a CO otc tag.  The difference will be even more as time goes on, MT seems to be awful proud of their tags lately.  To the state, $220 isn't anything, but for many of us it isn't chump change.

I believe at some point those states with wolves and tags that start to approach $1,000 are going to find a quick drop-off in the number of people that hunt every year - or even on a semi-regular basis.

[Special T]

I can travel 1375 miles in fuel for that $220 differnce AND there are no wolves. I dont think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that one out.