Reloading questions / help

[jrebel]

So, pretty frustrated with my reloading lately.  I working up a few loads for a .270 and a .243.  In the past it was relatively easy (other rifles) and didn't take near as much trial and error.  So here goes the problems and questions. 

.270:  It is a savage model 114 with accutrigger.  Loading 150 grain nosler partitions with H4350.  I found a load that will shoot sub 1" at 100 yards with 4 shot groups.   Now...here is my frustration.  I loaded 20 of that load and was going to sight in and shoot 200 yards.  Well...it wont hold a group at 200 yards.  My optics are Vortex Viper HS 4-14 so seeing the target at 200 yards is not the problem.  I am shooting off of sand bags so I am as steady as can be.  I think maybe I did something wrong so I go back to 100 yards and stick 4 shots touching each other.      Any suggestions??

.243:  4 different trial loads with 80 and 85 grain bullets.  Trying to load it down as it is going to be my daughters first gun.  100 yards and the best group I could get was 4".  Shoot factory 100 grain bullets and it groups tight but with noticeably more recoil.  So, this is not as frustrating, but any advise on light loads that have worked out of your .243's would be great. 

Thanks

jrebel

[bearpaw]

You could load a lighter weight bullet at normal speed to get less recoil!

[Curly]

On the .270, is there a parallax adjustment on that Vortex?  Just throwing that out for some thought........ 

[jasnt]

How bad was the 200 yard group?  What seating depth/s are you using, book length or mag length, jump/jammed?  Are you metering or weighting out each charge? Any pics of the groups?

Parallax  I think is 100 yards with that viper. Could aso be the issue

On the .270, is there a parallax adjustment on that Vortex?  Just throwing that out for some thought........ 

[Jason]

I have found H4831SC to be the most accurate in my 270 with Accubonds.

[jasnt]

What powder are you using with the 243?

[jrebel]

You could load a lighter weight bullet at normal speed to get less recoil!

What would be the minimum bullet weight for deer sized game out of a .243.  I was trying to keep it no lower than 80 grains.  My wife shoots 100 grains and it seems to group well and has proven to take game down quick.  It is amazing though...the felt recoil is significantly different with the 100 grain bullet. 

[jasnt]

You could load a lighter weight bullet at normal speed to get less recoil!

What would be the minimum bullet weight for deer sized game out of a .243.  I was trying to keep it no lower than 80 grains.  My wife shoots 100 grains and it seems to group well and has proven to take game down quick.  It is amazing though...the felt recoil is significantly different with the 100 grain bullet. 

I have taken deer with a 64gr Berger target,Shot placement is important here and I would keep it under 100 yards. It worked well for me, recoil is light and deer was drt.  Hornady also makes a 70gr sp

[tonymiller7]

I shoot 130 grain Accubonds and 55 grains of IMR 4350 out of my 270 and it is a tack driving SOB.  I'm not sure as to why you are grouping so well at 100 yds and not at 200.  How much experience do you have shooting at that range?  I hate to say it but it sounds like it might be operator error.  I've never really heard of a group falling apart that bad at longer ranges.  The group will naturally open up but not as bad as you are making it sound. 

[jrebel]

How bad was the 200 yard group?  What seating depth/s are you using, book length or mag length, jump/jammed?  Are you metering or weighting out each charge? Any pics of the groups?

Parallax  I think is 100 yards with that viper. Could aso be the issue

On the .270, is there a parallax adjustment on that Vortex?  Just throwing that out for some thought........ 

200 yard group were 4-5 inches, sorry did't think to take pictures.  They were all over the place.  I weighing every charge (50 grains H4350).  They are seated at 3.28" which is what worked best in my other .270.   100 yard group literally had all 4 holes touching 1/2 - 3/4 inch max.  The scope does have a parallax adjustment that was changed to 200 yard.  I played a little with the parallax today and it didn't seam to help.  I will admit I am not very well versed on parallax as this is the first scope I have ever had with a parallax adjustment. 

[jrebel]

What powder are you using with the 243?

I am using H414 which has worked well in my wife's .243.  I have the option to of varget or H4350 currently in my arsenal. 

[Fl0und3rz]

What's the expected/measured muzzle velocity on the .270? 

From what you describe, could the bullet not be stabilizing in that twist/velocity?

http://thearmsguide.com/6211/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-static-stability/

Although it is not often observed/discussed, it is not unheard of for a bullet to destabilize at longer ranges.  But I would think that the powders and bullets available for .270 win are fairly forgiving in that regard.  And the Nosler data certainly seems to show that you have picked a winning combo.

http://www.nosler.com/nosler-load-data/270-winchester/

I shoot the Nosler 150 grain partition out of a pencil barrel Rem. 700 Mountain Rifle and get near 1 MOA at 100 yards.  I haven't shot it longer than that for group size in a while, but do not remember experiencing what you describe.  I used IMR4831.

[jrebel]

I shoot 130 grain Accubonds and 55 grains of IMR 4350 out of my 270 and it is a tack driving SOB.  I'm not sure as to why you are grouping so well at 100 yds and not at 200.  How much experience do you have shooting at that range?  I hate to say it but it sounds like it might be operator error.  I've never really heard of a group falling apart that bad at longer ranges.  The group will naturally open up but not as bad as you are making it sound.

With my other .270 I am comfortable to 400 yards and have taken game at that range with a good rest.  I shoot more than most, but would call myself a relatively novice reloader.  I have never seen a group do this either that is why I am so frustrated.  First 4 shot group I thought was me....so I put the rifle down and shot another rifle while the letting the barrel cool.  Picked it up 15 minutes later and got the same results with the next 4 shot group.  Went back to 100 yard and 4 shots touching.     It was definitely not the shooter on this outing, though in most cases my gear is better than my abilities.   

[jasnt]

How bad was the 200 yard group?  What seating depth/s are you using, book length or mag length, jump/jammed?  Are you metering or weighting out each charge? Any pics of the groups?

Parallax  I think is 100 yards with that viper. Could aso be the issue

On the .270, is there a parallax adjustment on that Vortex?  Just throwing that out for some thought........ 

200 yard group were 4-5 inches, sorry did't think to take pictures.  They were all over the place.  I weighing every charge (50 grains H4350).  They are seated at 3.28" which is what worked best in my other .270.   100 yard group literally had all 4 holes touching 1/2 - 3/4 inch max.  The scope does have a parallax adjustment that was changed to 200 yard.  I played a little with the parallax today and it didn't seam to help.  I will admit I am not very well versed on parallax as this is the first scope I have ever had with a parallax adjustment. 

What powder are you using with the 243?

I am using H414 which has worked well in my wife's .243.  I have the option to of varget or H4350 currently in my arsenal. 

With parallax always start at infinity then dial down till clear. Look away then back threw the scope.  If still clear with out touching the rifle move your head around while looking threw the scope. If the cross hairs move on the target while your moving your head up or down or side to side then the parallax is not adjusted correctly.  Hope that made sense.
That varget get May very we'll be your best bet with the 243.
I would play with seating depth in both rifles. Every single gun is different, they may not like what your other guns liked

[bobcat]

I'm kinda stumped on the good groups at 100 but much worse at 200. If your 200 yard groups were 2 inches I'd think that was pretty normal, but 4 to 5 inches?

First thing I might try would be a bullet known for being accurate, maybe a Nosler Ballistic Tip or Sierra Gameking. If you can get a nice tight 200 yard group with another bullet, you'll know there's not a problem with the rifle or scope.

If you still can't get a good group at 200, the next thing I might try is a different scope.

[carpsniperg2]

With your 243 the twist in your rifle probably like the heavier bullets by the sounds of it. If it likes the 100 grain bullets then do some light handloads with the 100 grain bullets. Load at the recommended minimum for whatever powder you are using.

On the 270 I would buy a box of factory ammo and try it at 100 and 200. If it does the same wild thing I would be second guessing the mounts/rings and scope. If it shoots them better. I would guess that gun does not like that load and maybe go to a light bullet and try that.

[BOWHUNTER45]

 There are so many things it could be but in my opinion if you are getting factory ammo to shoot better than your reloads you are not doing something correctly . This can be anything from seating the bullets - not the right powder on and on . I can not understand why guys like heavier bullets out of a .270 ..it was made for 130 gr and lighter ...BUT I do find 140 gr to be the perfect bullet ..just shoots great and a little more knock down power without going to heavy ...as far as the .243 I would go with IMR 4350 ..just always has been my go to powder for a 243...another little trick when seating the ball into the case is to seat the ball a little at a time and spin the case about 1/4 turn and continue doing this until the ball is seated ..Takes a little more time but it does make a difference when your trying to load tight loads .. 

[jrebel]

There are so many things it could be but in my opinion if you are getting factory ammo to shoot better than your reloads you are not doing something correctly . This can be anything from seating the bullets - not the right powder on and on . I can not understand why guys like heavier bullets out of a .270 ..it was made for 130 gr and lighter ...BUT I do find 140 gr to be the perfect bullet ..just shoots great and a little more knock down power without going to heavy ...as far as the .243 I would go with IMR 4350 ..just always has been my go to powder for a 243...another little trick when seating the ball into the case is to seat the ball a little at a time and spin the case about 1/4 turn and continue doing this until the ball is seated ..Takes a little more time but it does make a difference when your trying to load tight loads .. 

I have contemplated going with a lighter bullet except I have so many 150 grain partitions it is hard not to use them.  I have also had great luck with accuracy and they are absolutely devastating on game.....just flattens deer.  I am sure a 130 or 140 would do the same, but old habits are hard to change. 

Thanks for the tip on spinning the case, I will try that.  I'm OK with it taking more time....reloading is very therapeutic to me. 

[docsven]

There are so many things it could be but in my opinion if you are getting factory ammo to shoot better than your reloads you are not doing something correctly . This can be anything from seating the bullets - not the right powder on and on . I can not understand why guys like heavier bullets out of a .270 ..it was made for 130 gr and lighter ...BUT I do find 140 gr to be the perfect bullet ..just shoots great and a little more knock down power without going to heavy ...as far as the .243 I would go with IMR 4350 ..just always has been my go to powder for a 243...another little trick when seating the ball into the case is to seat the ball a little at a time and spin the case about 1/4 turn and continue doing this until the ball is seated ..Takes a little more time but it does make a difference when your trying to load tight loads .. 

[duckmen1]

I had the same thing happening in my .270. And I will tell you what my problem was. Not saying this is your problem but this is what happened to me. I had a bushnell scope on mine. At ranges out to 500 yards I used to shoot great groups. Touching bullets at 100 yards to 4.5 inch groups at 500. Then I took a couple trips in really cold temps and the scope was never the same. At 100 I would still get groups touching at 100. But at 300 yards I couldn't even hit a pie plate size target. Got a Leopoldo vx2 4 by 12 power and am now shooting less than 3 inch groups at 300. My issue was a bad scope.

[jrebel]

OK....you all talked me into it.  I worked up three loads using Barnes TTSX 130 grain bullets.  I am staying with the H4350 (55, 54, 53 grains)  I also worked up another load with the 150 grain partitions just give them one last shot (pun intended). 

A question I have concerning the banded bullets like the TTSX....When seating them, is it better to have all bands hidden under the rim of the case?  I seated them a little deeper than usual (still w/in spec) so the bands would not be showing. 

When seating bullets and determining depth or OAL....what method do you use? 

[longwalker]

If your not shooting g through a chronograph reloading is almost a waste of time. If you don't know what kind of constantcey your getting in your velocity you really have no idea how good of a load your developing. Get a load with minamal ES and grouping at 100 and you should be able to take to any range your skill set will allow

[jrebel]

If your not shooting g through a chronograph reloading is almost a waste of time. If you don't know what kind of constantcey your getting in your velocity you really have no idea how good of a load your developing. Get a load with minamal ES and grouping at 100 and you should be able to take to any range your skill set will allow

I have a chrono, maybe I should use it more.  I guess I am unsure why my velocity would change much when I am measuring each charge. 

When I try these loads I will shoot them all through the chrono to see what my velocities are.  I will report back with data, pics, etc. following this outing.  Should be able to make to the range later this week.

[longwalker]

A lot of things can affetct spread on velocity. The weight of the charge being consistent doesn't equate to consistent velocity per say. I would say it's one of the single most important aspects of reloading to study and understand

[jasnt]

OK....you all talked me into it.  I worked up three loads using Barnes TTSX 130 grain bullets.  I am staying with the H4350 (55, 54, 53 grains)  I also worked up another load with the 150 grain partitions just give them one last shot (pun intended). 

A question I have concerning the banded bullets like the TTSX....When seating them, is it better to have all bands hidden under the rim of the case?  I seated them a little deeper than usual (still w/in spec) so the bands would not be showing. 

When seating bullets and determining depth or OAL....what method do you use? 

First thing you will need is a way to measure where the rifling starts. You can but a tool for this or make one like I did. To build one you will need a 1/4"x20 bolt about 3-4" long, peace of brass and proper drill bit and tap.  Drill out the primer hole and thread it. Then seat your bullet in the case just a little less than normally seated. Thèn chamber it and eject.  Look for rifling marks on the bullet( coloring the bullet with a sharpie will help) if no rifling marks then run the bolt in and push the bullet out more. Then remove blot and re-chamber and check again. Keep doing this till you find the rifling.  I like to start my load development "Jamed" .010" in the rifling if that aol will fit in my magazine. If not you at least know where your rifling starts.  If that aol won't fit the mag then you will need to start just under mag length and work in from there .  Once I determine my starting aol I do my load development. Then once if decided on powder charge I start playing with seating depth. Loads groups or 3-5 of the first aol and then .020" increments seating deeper till you find a good aol that that particular rifle likes.   Hope that all makes sense

[jrebel]

OK....you all talked me into it.  I worked up three loads using Barnes TTSX 130 grain bullets.  I am staying with the H4350 (55, 54, 53 grains)  I also worked up another load with the 150 grain partitions just give them one last shot (pun intended). 

A question I have concerning the banded bullets like the TTSX....When seating them, is it better to have all bands hidden under the rim of the case?  I seated them a little deeper than usual (still w/in spec) so the bands would not be showing. 

When seating bullets and determining depth or OAL....what method do you use? 

First thing you will need is a way to measure where the rifling starts. You can but a tool for this or make one like I did. To build one you will need a 1/4"x20 bolt about 3-4" long, peace of brass and proper drill bit and tap.  Drill out the primer hole and thread it. Then seat your bullet in the case just a little less than normally seated. Thèn chamber it and eject.  Look for rifling marks on the bullet( coloring the bullet with a sharpie will help) if no rifling marks then run the bolt in and push the bullet out more. Then techs bet and check again. Keep doing this till you find the rifling.  I like to start my load development "Jamed" .010" in the rifling if that aol will fit in my magazine. If not you at least know where your rifling starts.  If that aol won't fit the mag then you will need to start just under mag length and work in from there .  Once I determine my starting aol I do my load development. Then once if decided on powder charge I start playing with seating depth. Loads groups or 3-5 of the first aol and then .020" increments seating deeper till you find a good aol that that particular rifle likes.   Hope that all makes sense

Makes sense and I have used this method.  I have never used the sharpie method and have found it real hard to decipher rifling marks sometime.  I will have to use the sharpie trick!!  Thanks.   

[jasnt]

Dark green or black worked best for me

[Kittman]

Another thing that works excellent for determining COL and proper bullet seating depth is what I use, old school typewriter correction fluid, AKA "Whiteout".

http://www.officedepot.com/catalog/search.do;jsessionid=0000tyqnykAxRDwHLRItuiMYmbq:17h4h7dc6;jsessionid=0000tyqnykAxRDwHLRItuiMYmbq:17h4h7dc6?Ntt=correction%20fluid%20white&cmsearch=correction%20fluid%7Ckeyword%20matches%7Ccorrection%20fluid%20white&predict=true

[C-Money]

Tag, curious to know how the new loads did in the 270.

[jrebel]

OK....So here is some data and pictures to go along with it.  I loaded up 5 different loads (new) and another trial of the original that was giving me fits.  Today was the 100 yard range only.  These are the results of the best loads and groups.

Load #1: 

Powder: H4350 50 grains
Bullet:  Nosler Partition 150 grain 
Velocity per shot
1.  2665
2.  2655
3.  2665
4.  2606
5.  2650
Average:  2648.2 ft/sec

First shot was cold / clean bore, also first shot of the day.  Take away the first shot and you have .60 outside edge group or .40 group center measurement.  (I am not sure how they officially measure groups.  Either one is excellent. 

[jasnt]

Looks great. Normally center to center

[jrebel]

Load #2: 

Powder: H4350 53 grains
Bullet:  Barnes TTSX 130 grain
Velocity per shot
1.  2867
2.  2875
3.  2876
4.  2882
Average volocity:  2875 ft/sec

I had a 54 and 55 grain load worked up with all else being the same.....The group opened up substantially.  I want to try this load now with a 52 and 52.5 grain. 

Overal the group was pretty good.....  1.0 outside measurement and .85 middle measurement at the widest point.  I think I could tighten this up but not bad for first go round with this bullet. 

[bobcat]

Great groups, but I sure don't like how far off your first shot is from the rest of the group. Was that just due to a cold bore, or had you cleaned the rifle and perhaps left some oil in the bore?

[jrebel]

Load 3 was factory ammo Winchester Super X 150 grain.

Velocities
1.  2828
2.  2811
3.  2787
4.  2828
Average 2813.5  ft/sec

Group wasn't bad .89 center of widest group. 

[jrebel]

Great groups, but I sure don't like how far off your first shot is from the rest of the group. Was that just due to a cold bore, or had you cleaned the rifle and perhaps left some oil in the bore?

Could be a lot of factors......

1.  It was cold bore
2.  No oils but did swab barrel prior to shot
3.  First shot of the day
4.  Probably the biggest factor....I adjusted my trigger pull last night to approx 2 lbs.  First shot with lighter trigger pull.

[bobcat]

Those factory Winchester 150 grain Power Points have always shot awesome in my 270. Sometimes better than my handloads! One year for some reason my handloads just weren't grouping as good as they normally did. I shot a group with the Power Points and it was somewhere around a half inch at 100 yards. So that year I just went with the factory loads, and killed my late Entiat buck with that load (in 2004).

[jrebel]

How bad was the 200 yard group?  What seating depth/s are you using, book length or mag length, jump/jammed?  Are you metering or weighting out each charge? Any pics of the groups?

Parallax  I think is 100 yards with that viper. Could aso be the issue

On the .270, is there a parallax adjustment on that Vortex?  Just throwing that out for some thought........ 

200 yard group were 4-5 inches, sorry did't think to take pictures.  They were all over the place.  I weighing every charge (50 grains H4350).  They are seated at 3.28" which is what worked best in my other .270.   100 yard group literally had all 4 holes touching 1/2 - 3/4 inch max.  The scope does have a parallax adjustment that was changed to 200 yard.  I played a little with the parallax today and it didn't seam to help.  I will admit I am not very well versed on parallax as this is the first scope I have ever had with a parallax adjustment. 

What powder are you using with the 243?

I am using H414 which has worked well in my wife's .243.  I have the option to of varget or H4350 currently in my arsenal. 

With parallax always start at infinity then dial down till clear. Look away then back threw the scope.  If still clear with out touching the rifle move your head around while looking threw the scope. If the cross hairs move on the target while your moving your head up or down or side to side then the parallax is not adjusted correctly.  Hope that made sense.
That varget get May very we'll be your best bet with the 243.
I would play with seating depth in both rifles. Every single gun is different, they may not like what your other guns liked

So this was probably the most help.  My guess is the scope / myself was at fault for the bad groups at 200 yards.  Today played with the parallax adjustment while at the range.  Remember this is the first scope I have ever owned with this adjustment. At 100 yards, rifle secure in sand bags, I had the parallax set at infinity.  When I moved my eyes around in the scope the crosshairs moved point of impact.  I adjusted the parallax to approx 75 yards and the crosshairs stopped moving.  I am not sure I like this for a hunting scope....but the jury is still out. 

Now that I understand the scope a little better, I will work us some more loads and hit the range again.  I will move out to 200 yards working the parallax adjustment appropriately.  My guess is my groups will tighten up to where they should be. 

This is the first year I have really used this scope on this rifle.  Before I had a vx3 4-14x50 which is now on my .308 win.  May be looking for a new Leupold soon.   

[jasnt]

That Nosler group looks great. Tho the velocity deviation  of those ttsx is nice.

[bobcat]

I believe most scopes that don't have the parallax adjustment are set to be parallax free at 150 yards.