4 pt. restriction 117/121

[Wacenturion]

First I want thank the Commission for supporting and trying the 4pt rule and for reducing doe harvest throughout the NE so herd numbers could build back faster.

WDFW never liked the restriction from the beginning. It took a lot of work to get the 4 pt rule approved by the Commission. We recently compared data for 117/121 with data from surrounding units and the rule seems to be resulting in greater herd/buck recovery than in surrounding GMU's. It also appears that the hunter ratio hunting in the 4 pt area is practically back to pre-rule numbers. Another words the lost hunter revenue for local business is disappearing.

I agree with the Dept that deer numbers are rebounding and I think some doe hunting will not hurt. That would especially benefit youth hunters who live in the area who cannot easily hunt other areas. I would also suggest allowing youth hunters to take any buck now that buck numbers are improving.

In theory once deer numbers recover equal numbers of doe and buck need to be taken or the result will be more does in the herd, which is a low buck to doe ratio.

If the commission will keep the rule for another 3 years I think there will be a clearer picture of the results.

Absolutely agree......WDFW is not giving it a sufficient time. If they did they might have to live with it.  Apparently they don't like it, so ending it earlier rather than later nulifies data that would go against their "I think" biological assessment.

Of course WDFW plays on the average Joe hunter wanting to kill any buck.....sad.

[Wacenturion]

I'll bet there's more mature bucks now than before.

Ya think....

[jasnt]

An august 1st bear opener and 2 bear limit here would make a real difference.

[JimmyHoffa]

An august 1st bear opener and 2 bear limit here would make a real difference.

We have that on the coast, plus the tree farms have houndsmen (the hound guys get a ton of bears), but because there are so many cougars, I don't see it really upping the deer.  But the deer here seem to be more affected by logging.

[Bango skank]

An august 1st bear opener and 2 bear limit here would make a real difference.

We have that on the coast, plus the tree farms have houndsmen (the hound guys get a ton of bears), but because there are so many cougars, I don't see it really upping the deer.  But the deer here seem to be more affected by logging.

Im not saying it would be a cure all, but it would be a much easier change to get made than major overhauls in our cougar / wolf policies, and i think it would have a noticeable positive impact on our deer, elk and moose over time.  Our september 1st opener is bad for bear harvest in two ways.  One is that people dont have a full month to focus specifically on bears before more "important" seasons open.  The other is that, unlike much of the west side, september here is after our prime berry time, making the bears harder to locate.  How would the west side bear harvest go if it wasnt opened until the berries were dried up and elk/deer opened?  Add a 1 bear limit to that and i think your deer and elk would suffer significantly

[huntnnw]

wrong on the terrain in 127 and what I am talking about. Its rugged steep and just as thick if not thicker than all of the areas I hunt in 101,117 and 105

[JimmyHoffa]

An august 1st bear opener and 2 bear limit here would make a real difference.

We have that on the coast, plus the tree farms have houndsmen (the hound guys get a ton of bears), but because there are so many cougars, I don't see it really upping the deer.  But the deer here seem to be more affected by logging.

Im not saying it would be a cure all, but it would be a much easier change to get made than major overhauls in our cougar / wolf policies, and i think it would have a noticeable positive impact on our deer, elk and moose over time.  Our september 1st opener is bad for bear harvest in two ways.  One is that people dont have a full month to focus specifically on bears before more "important" seasons open.  The other is that, unlike much of the west side, september here is after our prime berry time, making the bears harder to locate.  How would the west side bear harvest go if it wasnt opened until the berries were dried up and elk/deer opened?  Add a 1 bear limit to that and i think your deer and elk would suffer significantly

I wish you guys could get the extra bear/extra season, and even get higher quotas on cats.  I think it's nuts you have to check online every few days to see if your cat season is still open.  Any predator down helps, so yeah, I guess if you have a certain area you scout/hunt hard you could probably boost the local herd a little.
I don't know too many people on westside that go for more than one bear, I think most bears get shot during mod deer/elk season..most guns in the woods.

[jasnt]

I really like hunting bear and like bear meat  more than venison.  I wouldn't mind if our deer tags could be used on an extra bear or even elk tag for that matter.

[pd]

I have to say this was one of the most informative threads I have read on this forum. 

Having said that, I don't know the Commission is reading this.  Best of luck to you all.

[buckfvr]

I would only support permits for youth any buck......other than that,  I do not support entitlements of any nature.  We all have the same opportunity and thats how it should be.  As we grow as hunters, we either become proficient or we fail............as it should be.   Take on the personal challenge to succeed with out expecting wdfw to make it easier for you than the next guy.

And Ill add guys should be climbing all over each other trying to get to the 4pt or better units with the way above average success rates...........no brainer.

[buckfvr]

" just pausing here to look at my stock pile of immature bucks.....................what a joke............people with the common sense educated right out of them.   

[jasnt]

....people with the common sense educated right out of them.   

thats awesome right there. I may have to use that

[csaaphill]

  good to see them change it even if I dont live up there I've lives with the 3pt restricitons for long enough. At first it was ok seen more bucks in general, but after a while all you seen was spikes and two pts. Sounds to me like 4pt is backwards thinking because your shooting all the breeding stock, and causing for more poaching as in some of our 3pt only areas where you get like a split second to judge and some just shoot then pray later.
changing things up a bit isn't a bad thing and anyone who hates crowds shouldn't be hunting for it's numbers that keeps our politicol pull not selfishness!

[jasnt]

good to see them change it even if I dont live up there I've lives with the 3pt restricitons for long enough. At first it was ok seen more bucks in general, but after a while all you seen was spikes and two pts. Sounds to me like 4pt is backwards thinking because your shooting all the breeding stock, and causing for more poaching as in some of our 3pt only areas where you get like a split second to judge and some just shoot then pray later.
changing things up a bit isn't a bad thing and anyone who hates crowds shouldn't be hunting for it's numbers that keeps our politicol pull not selfishness!

4pt whitetail are often not breeding stock. Likes said earlier a1 1/2 year old whitetail can be 4pt. They are not like mule deer!

[muleyguy]

" just pausing here to look at my stock pile of immature bucks.....................what a joke............people with the common sense educated right out of them.   

Utah Department of Wildlife:

• Antler point restrictions focus all the hunting pressure on the oldest age classes of bucks, gradually decrease the average age of the buck segment of the population, and make it more difficult for bucks to reach the older age classes due to the displaced harvest pressure.
• Antler point restrictions have been shown to reduce the number of trophy bucks over time by protecting only the smaller-antlered young bucks.



Ken McCaffery;  Research Biologist Wisconsin:

As studies continued, two major disappointments were discovered.First was finding an unacceptable level of accidental-illegal kill of animals with inadequate antler condition.Counting points in the wild can be difficult.
The second was noting that ARs focused harvests more heavily on the mature males, virtually wiping them out. One cannot produce “old” bucks by targeting old bucks. They found better age structures were achieved when harvests were spread across all age classes of males. States also found that the best way to have more mature animals was to limit license sales


Wyoming Department of Wildlife:

“A harvest strategy sometimes employed to improve depressed buck:doe ratios is a “four-point or better” hunting season. It may seem counterintuitive, but antler point restrictions do not necessarily produce more large bucks. In a ≥4 point season, the hunter is restricted to harvesting bucks with 4 points or more on either antler. Consequently, all harvest pressure is redirected to the largest deer in the population, which reduces their number. Since most yearlings and some 2-year old bucks are protected until they become small 4-point deer, the overall ratio of bucks to does will increase somewhat as a result of having more young bucks in the population. However, harvest is merely delayed until a buck grows its first set of 4-point antlers.  Thereafter, the buck:doe ratio does not continue to increase and fewer bucks actually survive to grow truly large antlers. Over the long-term, persistently targeting large bucks may also eliminate desirable genetics (the ability to grow large antlers) from the population.


Specific 4pt APR whitetail research:

“Before the regulation, a 3 1/2-year-old deer averaged 113 inches; now it’s down to 94 inches.”

Such statistics suggest that harvested bucks are actually losing some of the length and mass of antler that the 4-point rule was set up to increase.

The rule is designed to protect yearling deer, which it clearly accomplishes. In the process, however, it seems to best protect the yearling bucks produced each year with the smallest racks.

The second goal is to have these yearling deer that survive harvested in older age-classes. Unfortunately, there is no clear evidence that this is happening. On many WMAs, the total number of bucks harvested within older age-classes didn’t change much. The major difference was that the average age of harvested bucks increased by only about a year. There was no significant increase in the number of 3 1/2- and 4 1/2-year-old bucks being harvested.



Would you like more examples?   unfortunately, your "common sense" in this case is slightly wrong.......

I mean I can go on and on with data if you would like.......but, I guess data doesn't rule the day around here.......

the 4pt rule is expressly designed to protect yearling bucks, so, go with me here.......I know its a stretch for you to comprehend this.......but, if you protect (don't kill) yearling bucks, and only allow killing of older bucks, then, what does that result in..........a stockpile of yearling bucks...........