4 pt. restriction 117/121

[Bango skank]

Yeah but hes saying that killing the 1.5 yr old 4x4s is killing the bucks with "good genes."  Thats b.s.  and just for fun i got a study from texas, which he likes to base his knowledge on, that refutes that idea.  Here is a piece of it.

Using helicopters and net guns, Koerth and Kroll captured bucks in late January through February from 1999 to 2007. Initially, they captured as many fawns and yearlings as possible … to serve as known-age animals. All handled animals were aged and marked for individual identification with ear tags color-coded to year of birth. In subsequent years, the researchers attempted to recapture and examine as many of the marked animals as possible. Some were also taken by hunters.

Yearling bucks were divided into two antler-point categories, those with three or fewer antler points and those with four or more antler points. Then, the researchers compared recaptured bucks in the two antler-point categories to determine differences in antler growth at 2½ years, 3½ years, 4½ years, and 5½ or more years in age. Antler measurements included number of antler points, inside spread, total beam length, total tine length, total antler circumference, and gross B&C score. (See Table 1, above).

Interesting Results

At 2½ years of age, males that started with three or less antler points remained smaller in all measured antler traits, as compared to those starting with four or more points.

Even at 3½ years of age, the small-antlered yearlings still had smaller B&C antler measurements except for circumference.

However, those starting with three or fewer antler points appeared to be accelerating antler growth at a faster rate as compared to those in the larger yearling antler group.

By 4½ years of age there were no differences in any antler measurements regardless of the yearling antler-point category.

By that age, smaller antlered yearlings had attained a mean antler size equal in width, mass, length and number of points to those starting with larger antlers at yearling age. The same was true for bucks handled when 5½ years of age or older.

Assuming a trophy buck has antlers scoring 150 points or more, the data revealed that a yearling buck with small antlers is just as likely to attain trophy status as one with larger antlers at yearling age. About 17 percent of the yearlings in the small antler category and 13 percent of the yearlings in the large antler category achieved such stature when mature.

Therefore, this research showed that a whitetail buck’s first set of antlers was a poor predictor of antler growth at maturity in a wild population. In other words, selective removal of small-antlered yearling bucks will not increase overall mature buck antler size.

Antler Growth Patterns

Although antler measurements increased for all males as they matured, small-antlered yearlings added antler mass at a faster rate in succeeding years, as compared to large-antlered yearlings. This resulted in no difference in antler size, regardless of their yearling antler size, by the time bucks grew their fourth set of antlers when 4½ years old.

- See more at: http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/thecullingmythexposed#sthash.ggWu3WXZ.dpuf

[popeshawnpaul]

Every bio but one agreed they should not do the 4 point restriction, but if we do then only for a few years to get a bump back up in the herd numbers.  GMAC voted and it was advised they should not implement the 4 point restriction.  Somehow, a special interest group of armchair biologists and greedy locals showed up at commission meetings and got this passed.  If they did it, the plan was only for a few years.  This was never about trophy management but those that passed it had that in their mind.  Glad to see WDFW follow through on their plan to take off the restriction.

[PA BEN]

Sitka, the cull buck thing has been pretty well debunked.  Antler size at 1.5 years old has at least as much to do with time of birth as genetics.  Start digging into qdma and youll find many examples of this.  Spike bucks that overtake little basket racks after a year or two.  I think we all went to school with kids who were little pipsqueaks until about 16 or so, then all the sudden they were the biggest kids around.  Just because a year old buck has forks or spikes doesnt mean he doesnt have good genes, and wont amount to anything.  Anyway, texas has a LOT of diff stuff going on besides selective buck harvest.  Hell half the state is high fence ranches with feeding programs, aggressive doe harvest etc.  Comparing wa to texas is a joke.  But hey, you whiny, entitled baby killers got your way so time to stop arguing.  See you all here this fall as you drive around shooting any deer with a little bit of antler over its milk teeth.  Im sure youll feel bafass when you go home and tell all your buddies how you killed a nice fat spike.

All the good thats been done for the deer here will be reversed in the blink of an eye thanks to all the people who feel entitled to kill whatever just because they bought a tag.  Why would anyone even want to drive 300+ miles to kill a spike anyway?  And  the "im a meat hunter" argument holds no water when that little baby deer cost you 200 bucks in fuel, not to mention license, etc etc

I don't know who you are or where you live, but calling  out someone for being a meat hunter is wrong on the forum.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Sitka, the cull buck thing has been pretty well debunked.  Antler size at 1.5 years old has at least as much to do with time of birth as genetics.  Start digging into qdma and youll find many examples of this.  Spike bucks that overtake little basket racks after a year or two.  I think we all went to school with kids who were little pipsqueaks until about 16 or so, then all the sudden they were the biggest kids around.  Just because a year old buck has forks or spikes doesnt mean he doesnt have good genes, and wont amount to anything.  Anyway, texas has a LOT of diff stuff going on besides selective buck harvest.  Hell half the state is high fence ranches with feeding programs, aggressive doe harvest etc.  Comparing wa to texas is a joke.  But hey, you whiny, entitled baby killers got your way so time to stop arguing.  See you all here this fall as you drive around shooting any deer with a little bit of antler over its milk teeth.  Im sure youll feel bafass when you go home and tell all your buddies how you killed a nice fat spike.

All the good thats been done for the deer here will be reversed in the blink of an eye thanks to all the people who feel entitled to kill whatever just because they bought a tag.  Why would anyone even want to drive 300+ miles to kill a spike anyway?  And  the "im a meat hunter" argument holds no water when that little baby deer cost you 200 bucks in fuel, not to mention license, etc etc

I don't know who you are or where you live, but calling  out someone for being a meat hunter is wrong on the forum.

Your concern is appreciated PA Ben.  I have pretty thick skin though. If I didn't I'd have been long gone from this site years ago.  It seems some people think that name calling makes their argument stronger, while most of us got over that by Jr. High.

As for my motivation for hunting, it really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand nor does Bango skank have a clue. I suspect you and I have a lot in common from what I've seen you post about hunting. Any more, it's more about spending time with friends and family in the great outdoors and is as much a vacation as anything. I still love venison, but I'm in the fortunate position where being cost effective isn't the #1 priority. I've done plenty of trips where 100 gallons of fuel took 4 or more of us out to harvest 5 deer apiece. 

For some people though, instead of enjoying and learning about nature and time with friends and family, hunting is a competition and the amount of bone they collect is directly related to how they feel about themselves and their machismo. The bigger the rack, the better they feel about themselves and the more disdain they feel for other hunters. I get it. But unless their name is Milo Hanson, they will never measure up.

To these guys, spending $200 in fuel to shoot a spike, or God forbid, a doe, is unthinkable, but spending $5,000 for a guide to up their chances to get a buck that meets some arbitrary score so they can see their name in a book, is somehow cost effective. I guess if being "cost effective" is the true measure of hunting, we all have to walk out our back door with one bullet in our pocket and bring home the most meat possible. Oh, and with the most bone on it's head so we can feel like macho men.

Meanwhile, just because the 4 pt restriction goes away doesn't mean everyone will start shooting spikes. There will be plenty of hunters who hold out, even passing on 4 pointers, because that is how they roll. Some will do it because they like to challenge themselves, some because they want an older, bigger animal that will provide more meat, and others because they would be too embarrassed to put their picture with a spike on Hunt Washington.

[jasnt]

FYI.  Antler genetics come from the mother not from the father.

[Miles]

Every bio but one agreed they should not do the 4 point restriction, but if we do then only for a few years to get a bump back up in the herd numbers.  GMAC voted and it was advised they should not implement the 4 point restriction.  Somehow, a special interest group of armchair biologists and greedy locals showed up at commission meetings and got this passed.  If they did it, the plan was only for a few years.  This was never about trophy management but those that passed it had that in their mind.  Glad to see WDFW follow through on their plan to take off the restriction.

I'm glad someone else can see through the bs and remember the way things played out.   Nothing but a marketing ploy for those with something to gain via their bank account.  Land owners and the largest outfitter in the area.  Hmmm...

[bobcat]

FYI.  Antler genetics come from the mother not from the father.

I've never heard that. I believe the genetics come from both.

[jasnt]

FYI.  Antler genetics come from the mother not from the father.

I've never heard that. I believe the genetics come from both.

according to whitetail institute of North America the antler gene comes from the doe and milk production genes come from the buck.   

[JimmyHoffa]

FYI.  Antler genetics come from the mother not from the father.

I've never heard that. I believe the genetics come from both.

according to whitetail institute of North America the antler gene comes from the doe and milk production genes come from the buck.

I've been reading that more and more.  There was a huge amount of influence from the doe toward the antlers.  Kind of like how women pass on the gene for male baldness.  But wasn't there something about the buck that fathered the doe, needed to have certain antler characteristics?

[jasnt]

FYI.  Antler genetics come from the mother not from the father.

I've never heard that. I believe the genetics come from both.

according to whitetail institute of North America the antler gene comes from the doe and milk production genes come from the buck.

I've been reading that more and more.  There was a huge amount of influence from the doe toward the antlers.  Kind of like how women pass on the gene for male baldness.  But wasn't there something about the buck that fathered the doe, needed to have certain antler characteristics?

yes that is correct she does have to have those genes from her father.  The sex of the fawn determined by the buck seems to also decide which parents genes to put where. I'm not educated when it comes to DNA but how I understand it and this goes for many farm animals as well.  Females take on more of there fathers genetic traits and males take more of there mothers genetic traits.  Idk if this only pertains to the traits we look for in these animals but it does ring true for milk production, body size, antler or horn growth, and future off springs sex.

[Wacenturion]

FYI.  Antler genetics come from the mother not from the father.

I've never heard that. I believe the genetics come from both.

according to whitetail institute of North America the antler gene comes from the doe and milk production genes come from the buck.

The doe does have a father you know.....

[Hunting7mm]

Ok I know everyone is going back and fourth on the 4 point minimum but my youngest daughter just passed her hunters safety and I was wondering if the youth hunt for antlerless is still going to be open for th 4 days like last year.  This will be the first time I have taken one of my kids on the youth hunt but we have some family over in 121 that knows the area.  Living here on the west side I got my deer the 1st week but I beat the brush hard trying to find my oldest a buck to shoot at.  All we found were some small spikes and she wanted to pass on them.  First time she hadn't filled a tag since she had been hunting.  Thanks guys..

[bobcat]

Looks like it's more than 4 days- it's the entire season (Oct 17-30).

You can look at the seasons here: 

http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2015/04/apr09_2015_15_summary.pdf

[Sitka_Blacktail]

FYI.  Antler genetics come from the mother not from the father.

I've never heard that. I believe the genetics come from both.

according to whitetail institute of North America the antler gene comes from the doe and milk production genes come from the buck.

Yah and that's why the big whitetail hunting ranches pay hundreds of thousands for big racked bucks and their genetic lines. They pay $2,500 and more just for a straw of semen to breed one doe. http://texaswhitetailbreeders.info/buck-semen.html

And here's another study that debunks whatever it is you think you learned from the Whitetail institute.  http://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/genetics/

This one repeats the findings you read about and then debunks them. Check out the growth charts.  http://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/antlers_inherited/

[PA BEN]

I saw this on FB this morning.
New hunting rules approved today by the WA Fish & Wildlife Commission will expand hunting opportunities for virtually every big game species and gear type, including:
• Add two more days to modern firearm deer season.
• Drop 4-antler-point restriction on white-tailed deer in northeast GMUs 117 & 121, returning to any buck
• Shift archery elk season to start Saturday after Labor Day for opportunity in cooler weather.
• Double amount of spring bear permits in northeast Washington.
• Allow muzzleloader elk hunters to hunt in more GMUs.
• Increase moose permits to 170 from 136 in the northeast
A proposal to restrict the use of bait when hunting for deer and elk was tabled until work with stakeholders can develop new options for future consideration. All hunting rules will be included in the 2015 Big Game Hunting pamphlet,