Take Action Now on Seattle Anti-Gun Ordinances

[magnumb]

How many businesses can you patronize these days that you don't have to think about if you're carrying concealed or otherwise and if it's legal to do so.......?  Very few.  And whether legal or not by state or federal standards, individual store/shop owners set their own rules, as well.

I am as guilty as any of carrying concealed into places where it is both forbidden or illegal to do so, but it is neither 'right' nor very relaxing and comfortable when I've done so.  But prior to entering that business, whether acceptable or smart or not on my part, I make 'that' decision based on several factors, a few of which include the area I'm in, people in the immediate vicinity of my vehicle, the gun laws pertaining to the particular business that I'm about to enter, the anticipated length of time I expect to be in that business, if I can see my vehicle from within that business and other considerations.

But to say that one deserves to be fined and essentially punished for leaving a firearm in his/her vehicle unattended is, at best, ludicrous.  This pertains to you driving alone and not with others left in the vehicle, be they children or adults.  As has been already stated....do you really expect me and tens of thousands of other shooters/hunters to carry their firearms into every diner/public restroom/grocery store/friends homes/yada, yada, yada that we stop at either prior to or after hunting or a shooting event? 

On my Montana varmint hunts alone, I would need to carry 2 fully outfitted/scoped AR's, a .22 rifle and a couple handguns into a public restroom just to take a leak if one should be fined for not doing so.  And how many additional stops on your way to do just that one errand have you had to make where your wife or whomever calls you enroute to your only errand to pile on a few additional stops for you......one or more where it is either a state or federal offense to be in possession of a firearm.  While you and your sherpa are carrying your weapons into the few businesses that allow you to possess guns, it is likely that you might be drawing attention to yourselves and the fact that you own guns.  And since much of our time hunting and shooting takes place locally for each of us, that 'questionable' neighbor kid and his friends that just parked close to you might just take notice of the fact that you own guns. 

If you happen to take your game animal to the butchers on your way home from your successful hunt, be sure to pack your rifle(s) into his shop along with the sidearm that you have inside your truck, as well.  And if stopped by a 'gamie' on your way back home, again, be sure to grab your rifle and handgun while exiting your vehicle so that you can show him your deer/elk.  And if stopped for speeding or a broken tail light after that, be sure to do the same if/when the officer asks you to exit your vehicle and confirm that tail light is out and verifies the reasoning for his stopping you. 

Are these examples a stretch from the being 'fined' statement...?  Nope....not all all.  That blanket, "should be fined" statement, covers all of my examples and millions more.

Be safe and be smart, but no matter how well we may strive to do both, we cannot forsee nor change the behavior of others.  Thieves will be thieves, no matter from within your vehicle, your home or even from your person.       

[GrainfedMuley]

As the City Council continues to make Seattle more of a Sh*t hole, I am sure this law (if created) will find its way into the home.

You couldn't GIVE me a house inside the Seattle city limits. What a cesspool of humanity and city government.

[CP]

How many businesses can you patronize these days that you don't have to think about if you're carrying concealed or otherwise and if it's legal to do so.......?

It's not illegal to CC in any business provided you have a CPL - unless it is a no minors area that serves alcohol - post office, etc.   

[cowboycraig]

My problem with the car thing is how much effort to keep your gun from being stolen is enough. 

Level 1: You leave a gun in a car unlocked
Level 2: You leave a gun in a car locked
Level 3: You leave a gun in your house unlocked
Level 4: You leave your gun in your house locked in a cabinet
Level 5: You leave your gun in your house locked in a cheap safe
Level 6: You leave your gun locked in your house locked in an impenetrable safe
Level 7: You leave your gun in your pocket
Level 8: You leave your gun in your pocket with a magazine in the other pocket and a fingerprint lock release

At what point in this set of levels is "responsible".  You could argue at any level that the person "could've done more".  If they could've done more and didn't, how do you stop the slippery slope by saying they should be fined? 

Perhaps we should start the national discussion of blaming victims of other crimes...  Kidding, that would backfire like crazy.

If you look at that list and tell me that a gun stolen out of my car should be a fine for me, I'd come back and challenge that if a gun is stolen out of your house you should be fined and then we'd be at an impasse.   

Good points. The only "responsible" option for the gun prohibitionists is confiscation. The bar of "responsible" will be forever raised. That is the plan by political degenerates addicted to self righteousness and destroying any culture other than cowardice bending a knee to fascism.

[cowboycraig]

As the City Council continues to make Seattle more of a Sh*t hole, I am sure this law (if created) will find its way into the home.

You couldn't GIVE me a house inside the Seattle city limits. What a cesspool of humanity and city government.

What if the house came with free wifi and an obamaphone?

[GrainfedMuley]

As the City Council continues to make Seattle more of a Sh*t hole, I am sure this law (if created) will find its way into the home.

You couldn't GIVE me a house inside the Seattle city limits. What a cesspool of humanity and city government.

What if the house came with free wifi and an obamaphone?

Not even if it had a pool and a safe full of money

[magnumb]

How many businesses can you patronize these days that you don't have to think about if you're carrying concealed or otherwise and if it's legal to do so.......?

It's not illegal to CC in any business provided you have a CPL - unless it is a no minors area that serves alcohol - post office, etc.

Yes, you're right, and I realize that.  The point being that compared to just a few years ago, the % of businesses (government, public, with alcohol service or not) now requiring no CC and advertising such, has exploded in #'s.  If you enter a store, business or any office building and don't just for a split second think about and then also scan the doorwar area of that business to see if such signs/requirements exist, we just happen to differ very much in that regard.  I envy you somewhat, but the point being......the "post office, etc." that you referred to encompasses many, many times more businesses than it did just a handful of years ago......unfortunately.

Personally, I think about it each and everytime I enter a business which I've not entered before and I already know allows CC or at least, doesn't advertise it. 

Whether you can or can't CC wherever doesn't mean that it's not the unfortunate truth that one must attempt to be aware of such possibilities.  The much used and clearly embraced understanding of any court is that 'ignorance is no excuse', which is why I do my best to currently comply.

Plenty of places that one can still CC.  Many where you cannot.  Making the 'legal' decision to leave your firearm in your vehicle while patronizing a business which doesn't allow CC and then to have that firearm stolen from your vehicle, is much easier to mitigate in court rather than to plead ignorance to the fact that you didn't know that business didn't allow CC (a government business/building or another business advertising no CC).

Understand......this is from a fellow member that CC's as often as my current surrounding legally allows, so I am not the enemy nor should I be 'fined' for having my firearm stolen from my vehicle by another.

[magnanimous_j]

If you leave a firearm in your car unattended, and it is broken into and stolen, you should get fined.  Not that it makes it ok to steal the gun in the first place but accept some responsibility.

WOW   

No, he's absolutely right. If someone left a thousand dollars in cash on the front seat of their car and it got stolen, how sorry would you feel for them? Maybe a little, but you'd still want to smack their head for doing something so dumb.

The 2nd Amendment gives us the RIGHT to bear arms. But it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility of our actions. If YOUR gross negligence allows YOUR firearm to fall into the hands of criminals, be glad all you get is a fine.

So you are on your way to eastern Wa and you stop for breakfast, lunch , gas . You have a rifle ,handgun,and all your gear in the car.
You take your firearms with you ?
Someone breaks in and you get fined.

I can't believe anyone would go for that on this site.

Good thing the state constitution won't allow it.
Forget comments send some money to the 2 nd amendment foundation.

It's a case by case basis. I wasn't actually even advocating getting fines, just addressing a somewhat common attitude that the 2A somehow relieves you of acting responsibly. I've walked past vehicles in parking lots and seen guns poking out of the pockets on the back of the seats and thinking "It would take me 10 seconds to steal that."

[Curly]

If you leave a firearm in your car unattended, and it is broken into and stolen, you should get fined.  Not that it makes it ok to steal the gun in the first place but accept some responsibility.

WOW   

No, he's absolutely right. If someone left a thousand dollars in cash on the front seat of their car and it got stolen, how sorry would you feel for them? Maybe a little, but you'd still want to smack their head for doing something so dumb.

The 2nd Amendment gives us the RIGHT to bear arms. But it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility of our actions. If YOUR gross negligence allows YOUR firearm to fall into the hands of criminals, be glad all you get is a fine.

But Crunchy wasn't even talking about leaving a gun in plane view on in the vehicle.  He simply stated that if the gun was stolen then the gun owner should be fined.  Most people I hope would find that a crazy notion.

[CP]

How many businesses can you patronize these days that you don't have to think about if you're carrying concealed or otherwise and if it's legal to do so.......?

It's not illegal to CC in any business provided you have a CPL - unless it is a no minors area that serves alcohol - post office, etc.

Yes, you're right, and I realize that.  The point being that compared to just a few years ago, the % of businesses (government, public, with alcohol service or not) now requiring no CC and advertising such, has exploded in #'s.  If you enter a store, business or any office building and don't just for a split second think about and then also scan the doorwar area of that business to see if such signs/requirements exist, we just happen to differ very much in that regard.  I envy you somewhat, but the point being......the "post office, etc." that you referred to encompasses many, many times more businesses than it did just a handful of years ago......unfortunately.

Personally, I think about it each and everytime I enter a business which I've not entered before and I already know allows CC or at least, doesn't advertise it. 

Whether you can or can't CC wherever doesn't mean that it's not the unfortunate truth that one must attempt to be aware of such possibilities.  The much used and clearly embraced understanding of any court is that 'ignorance is no excuse', which is why I do my best to currently comply.

Plenty of places that one can still CC.  Many where you cannot.  Making the 'legal' decision to leave your firearm in your vehicle while patronizing a business which doesn't allow CC and then to have that firearm stolen from your vehicle, is much easier to mitigate in court rather than to plead ignorance to the fact that you didn't know that business didn't allow CC (a government business/building or another business advertising no CC).

Understand......this is from a fellow member that CC's as often as my current surrounding legally allows, so I am not the enemy nor should I be 'fined' for having my firearm stolen from my vehicle by another.

I guess I still don’t follow.  The federal government bans firearms in most of their building and has for years.  The state bans firearms in schools with some exceptions and has for years. Firearms are banned in bars and other places serving liquor.  None of this is new.

Now days some places do hang a sign saying “no firearms” but that is their rule, not a law.  You can legally carry in these places up until the point that someone asks you to leave.  If and when that happens you must leave or you are trespassing.  But hanging a sign does not make CC on the premises illegal and if your firearm is concealed no one knows and no one asks you to leave.

But no, no one should be fined for being the victim of a crime.

[luvmystang67]

How many businesses can you patronize these days that you don't have to think about if you're carrying concealed or otherwise and if it's legal to do so.......?

It's not illegal to CC in any business provided you have a CPL - unless it is a no minors area that serves alcohol - post office, etc.

Yes, you're right, and I realize that.  The point being that compared to just a few years ago, the % of businesses (government, public, with alcohol service or not) now requiring no CC and advertising such, has exploded in #'s.  If you enter a store, business or any office building and don't just for a split second think about and then also scan the doorwar area of that business to see if such signs/requirements exist, we just happen to differ very much in that regard.  I envy you somewhat, but the point being......the "post office, etc." that you referred to encompasses many, many times more businesses than it did just a handful of years ago......unfortunately.

Personally, I think about it each and everytime I enter a business which I've not entered before and I already know allows CC or at least, doesn't advertise it. 

Whether you can or can't CC wherever doesn't mean that it's not the unfortunate truth that one must attempt to be aware of such possibilities.  The much used and clearly embraced understanding of any court is that 'ignorance is no excuse', which is why I do my best to currently comply.

Plenty of places that one can still CC.  Many where you cannot.  Making the 'legal' decision to leave your firearm in your vehicle while patronizing a business which doesn't allow CC and then to have that firearm stolen from your vehicle, is much easier to mitigate in court rather than to plead ignorance to the fact that you didn't know that business didn't allow CC (a government business/building or another business advertising no CC).

Understand......this is from a fellow member that CC's as often as my current surrounding legally allows, so I am not the enemy nor should I be 'fined' for having my firearm stolen from my vehicle by another.

I guess I still don’t follow.  The federal government bans firearms in most of their building and has for years.  The state bans firearms in schools with some exceptions and has for years. Firearms are banned in bars and other places serving liquor.  None of this is new.

Now days some places do hang a sign saying “no firearms” but that is their rule, not a law.  You can legally carry in these places up until the point that someone asks you to leave.  If and when that happens you must leave or you are trespassing.  But hanging a sign does not make CC on the premises illegal and if your firearm is concealed no one knows and no one asks you to leave.

But no, no one should be fined for being the victim of a crime.

I'm not a legal expert, but I believe if you enter a business that has posted no weapons signs, you are guilty of trespassing, whether they have asked you to leave or not.  Its not a firearms violation, its a trespassing violation.  Similar to entering private property that is posted no trespassing.  If its not posted, then you have to be asked to leave.  If it is posted, you're guilty of criminal trespass as soon as you set foot on their property.   

[CP]

No, it doesn't work that way.

[magnumb]

I believe that it does.  What you're saying is that the state or feds mandates/rules/law are more important and carries more weight than a private business owners rights or at the very least, you feel that way by your own comments. 

You can be cited for trespassing, albeit likely a warning initially, but that would be up to the business owner, LEO and your attitude.  What I find interesting is that you obviously feel from your statement, "you can legally carry in these places up until the point where they then ask you to leave".  By that reasoning, a sex offender can tutor or work at a day care up until he's asked to leave or no restraining order is good until your caught or you can pop 5 deer until you're caught or................

If the business posts "No Firearms Allowed", that's what they've decided as to how they want to run their business.  What you are suggesting, quite literally, is to not honor that persons request in his own place of business.  That is both disrespectful and about as unpatriotic as those that would deny us the right to own firearms.  I'm thinking that you have forgotten the infamous, "the government owns businesses, people don't own business's" and how that particular quote (+/-) was received by most Americans.  It seems as though you are in the minority as to how you feel about the rights of business owners.

I'd suggest not putting any business owner in such a position because you feel differently than he/she does about such things just as you make the rules in your own home.  More importantly, if you feel strongly enough about CC whenever and wherever you so choose or you are just looking for a confrontation just because you roll that way, I'd recommend that upon reading any 'No Firearms Allowed' sign/notice, that you just not eat/shop or enter said establishment.  That way you satisfy your own principles and/or officious personality without treading on another citizens (business owners) rights and wishes.

I choose to darken the doorways of establishments that don't make CC an issue.  It's a simple choice and I'm exercising my rights while doing so.  I don't feel it's either responsible nor adultlike to essentially 'bait' someone into an argument or discussion over gun rights in his own domain.....which is exactly what would happen given your suggestion to CC until you're discovered doing so.  Were you going to politely say 'thank you' when asked to leave......nope.  You were setting the stage to be self serving and righteous while quite intentionally placing the innocent business owner in an uncomfortable and undesirable position through absolutely no fault of his or her own.  For what possible purpose......?  This isn't a game of hide (your gun) and seek.

Respect others rights and beliefs as you would want them to honor yours.  As an aside, if you hadn't noticed.......gun owners don't need anymore bad press or ill will felt and directed towards us. 

When you CC or open carry, you don't just represent yourself.

[Scvette]

I think you are incorrect,they have to ask you to leave,if you don't leave right away,you could be trespassed.

[CP]

I’m just stating the law, as it’s written.  It doesn’t apply to anything else and you can’t reason its application into any other situation.

RCW 9A.52.070
Criminal trespass in the first degree.   
(1) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the first degree if he or she knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building.

     (2) Criminal trespass in the first degree is a gross misdemeanor.

You have to knowingly and unlawfully enter to be guilty.  It’s like walking into a restaurant past a sign that reads “no shirts, no shoes, no service” with no shoes on.  You have not broken a law – you have violated a rule -  when asked to leave you say OK and leave – no law is violated – you say screw you and sit down, now you are guilty of criminal trespass.

Let’s take it a bit further.  Say you are a black man and walk into a restaurant past a sign that reads “whites only”  and you are then asked to leave and refuse …  I’ll let you figure that one out.

Set whatever code of rule following that wish to but this is the law, it’s not an attitude and it’s not a philosophy.