Jasmine training with RJ

[jetjockey]

There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial. 

[addicted2hunting]

It's a 2 month process with an extra month for "polish".A reward based system works,you trick the dog into doing it right and then you reward it. For instance you go to work,you do a job,and you get paid for it. Constant fly away birds is a paycheck the dog never sees,a dead bird in it's mouth is it's paycheck.There are alot of fly away broke dogs in trialing and you can see which ones they are,their style drops significantly at the flush of the bird because they know to stand still or they get zapped or hit in training.The dog that is rewarded stands taller waiting for the fly away bird to fall to the ground.

depends on the prey drive also...my dog was broke in 1 day steady through wing... wing and shot took an additional 2 days.  that 1st day only took about 10 birds... still after that initial day he is perfect and his style gets really intense when the bird flies away. how it works is to take the chase out of the dog first by flighting pigeons by hand then when the dog go to chase you apply the e collar on constant until he stops. make him stand until you tap on his head to release... put him in his dog box for 20 mins to think about it... then do again until he is stopping with no e collar pressure at the sight of a flighted bird... then move to a bird in a launcher down wind of him and let him work towards it and release like a wild flush when he gets close and like above you apply e collar pressure if he doesn't stop at the flight of the bird(no scent involved with it down wind). do that until he slams to a stop when that bird is launched... then you move to the launcher upwind and let him point the bird then you move in to flush and when the bird flies and he moves you do the same as above... IF HE DOESNT POINT THE BIRD RELEASE IT AS HE GETS IN THE SCENT CONE THEN APPLY E COLLAR PRESSURE AFTER THE BIRD IS IN THE AIR! NEVER WHEN HE CAN SMELL THE BIRD AND IT IS ON THE GROUND. a few times of this and I promise the dog will slam on point and not move...Basically the concept is the dog owns that bird as long as it stays on the ground but when its in the air it no longer belongs to him... most high prey drive dogs ARE COMPLETELY REWARDED BY THE CHASE ALONE! once they know they cant chase and they don't get a bird all reward is gone until they keep the bird on the ground AKA pointing... not to mention stop to flush is now already done for you....  I am willing to demonstrate this to anyone... and if it doesn't work I owe you lunch... I bet we could have that dog solid in a weekend... but yes agree to disagree always... not trying to make enemies just trying to help out as I have just went through this with my dog and was taught this by a pro. I have now helped another guy learn this method with a very stubborn high drive dog and we had his broke in a day also...

[Shannon]

They are not steady to WSF IMO until you can shoot a wild bird that has been running until it's been pinned and you hammer the bird with the feathers drifting over the dog and the dog doesn't move. All that consistantly:)
The hard part is staying there with most hard charging dogs.

[syoungs]

What's a months worth of training run? My lab is doing good with all training, but I don't have the time/resources to upland train him, so was thinking about sending him off for a few months when it's time.

[jetjockey]

B#llsh!t.  Sorry, but I'll call it as I see it!  You don't break a dog in 2 days.  And I know lots of Pros as well.  The type of Pros who win the AKC Nationals!  You don't break a dog in two days.  Especially if you want a decent dog. 

[constructeur]

Dude, you pay someone else to keep/train your dog, of course you're not going to believe what's possible. It goes against everything you've spent serious money on.


Larry- Best of luck with Jasmine. I hope you're stoning birds over her this Fall. 

[wildweeds]

That's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.

There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.

[addicted2hunting]

B#llsh!t.  Sorry, but I'll call it as I see it!  You don't break a dog in 2 days.  And I know lots of Pros as well.  The type of Pros who win the AKC Nationals!  You don't break a dog in two days.  Especially if you want a decent dog.

My dog breaks when it hits the ground... that's it... and yes total time to get there was 3 days.... I can prove it... so like I stated above he is broke steady through shot. ( going by NAVHDA and their definition of W S F.  give me another solid week of the fall part on planted birds and my dog wont move... Only reason why I stopped where I was at is because its FF time and he is now done, but yes like Shannon stated above. the dog isn't truly broke unless you can do all that on wild birds. My dog knows it'll be hell to pay if he moves...

[addicted2hunting]

What's a months worth of training run? My lab is doing good with all training, but I don't have the time/resources to upland train him, so was thinking about sending him off for a few months when it's time.

500 to 700 seems to be the average.

[jetjockey]

Keep telling yourselves that.  Breaking when it hits the ground, when a shot is fired, blah blah blah.  It ain't broke to wing and shot.  You don't break a dog in 2 or 3 days.  I don't finish my dogs because I dont have thousands of acres of wild birds to train on several days a week.  I pay someone for that, and it's the best investment money can buy in the bird dog world.  You will never hear me apologize for that.  That doesn't mean I don't know what is possible.  I fully understand that some dogs essentially break themselves, but that's the dog, and you breed for that.  My dog doesn't break because she's worried there will be hell to pay.  She doesn't break because she's learned to appreciate the find and the flush.  When a dog can appreciate that, while standing tall and proud as the bird flys off, and even falls, you truly have a nice bird dog.

[wildweeds]

A dog that breaks when the bird hits the ground is................Steady to wing that has been the definition since  before our grandfathers were young boys,my grandfather would be 104.Steady to wing and shot is the dog doesn't move until released with a verbal or physical cue such as a tap behind the head or to the withers.

[JODakota]

B#llsh!t.  Sorry, but I'll call it as I see it!  You don't break a dog in 2 days.  And I know lots of Pros as well.  The type of Pros who win the AKC Nationals!  You don't break a dog in two days.  Especially if you want a decent dog.

Agreed.

[addicted2hunting]

Keep telling yourselves that.  Breaking when it hits the ground, when a shot is fired, blah blah blah.  It ain't broke to wing and shot.  You don't break a dog in 2 or 3 days.  I don't finish my dogs because I dont have thousands of acres of wild birds to train on several days a week.  I pay someone for that, and it's the best investment money can buy in the bird dog world.  You will never hear me apologize for that.  That doesn't mean I don't know what is possible.  I fully understand that some dogs essentially break themselves, but that's the dog, and you breed for that.  My dog doesn't break because she's worried there will be hell to pay.  She doesn't break because she's learned to appreciate the find and the flush.  When a dog can appreciate that, while standing tall and proud as the bird flys off, and even falls, you truly have a nice bird dog.

obviously not completely broke... but I guarantee it wont take me even a month to be completely broke... But remember, when a trainer says it takes 2 months that translates to 30 mins tops a day for 2 months... add that 30 mins up across 2 months and what do you have? 30 hrs of total training on your dog if the trainer doesn't take a day off. when I train its about 6 hrs a session, during the weekdays its up to 2 hrs a session just to rehearse what he has learned and to maintain it. It really comes down to how bad do you want it and the time you are willing to invest in your dog. 3 days of 30 mins a day...no you cant break a dog. I was just stating the progress I got in 3 days time at about 6 hrs each session from a dog that was a hard headed hard charging dog that was sooo dishonest that he wouldn't even point anymore. My dog doesn't worry about hell to pay...he knows it... he is still fiery bold and confident and he has polished out to have a ton of style for a versatile dog, you could lay a yard stick on his back head to tail now... I am not concerned with his "style"as I am not out there to be the most stylish...but yes a lot of it has to do with the breeding I agree. IMO the good dogs are the ones that are always pushing the limits... But how do you know it cant be done if you haven't done any of it yourself? I mean the trainers are thankful as they need to keep their lights on and bills paid....Just calling it what it is right?

[jetjockey]

6hrs a day of training with the same dog?  Seriously?

[addicted2hunting]

A dog that breaks when the bird hits the ground is................Steady to wing that has been the definition since  before our grandfathers were young boys,my grandfather would be 104.Steady to wing and shot is the dog doesn't move until released with a verbal or physical cue such as a tap behind the head or to the withers.

well I am going by the NAVHDA standards as that is what I get judged by.