Ethical to shoot past 400 yards at elk w/AR15 based rifle? Yes/No

[bobcat]

Since hammer has only killed a deer once...   I'm pretty certain that's not true.

All at 600 yards with an AR-15?

Any elk at the same distance and rifle since elk is what this thread is about?

[BULLBLASTER]

Since hammer has only killed a deer once...   I'm pretty certain that's not true.

All at 600 yards with an AR-15?

Any elk at the same distance and rifle since elk is what this thread is about?

how many elk has he killed with a ar according to Google?

[bobcat]

Since hammer has only killed a deer once...   I'm pretty certain that's not true.

All at 600 yards with an AR-15?

Any elk at the same distance and rifle since elk is what this thread is about?

how many elk has he killed with a ar according to Google?

You tell me. Apparently you know him personally. I don't.

[BULLBLASTER]

Since hammer has only killed a deer once...   I'm pretty certain that's not true.

All at 600 yards with an AR-15?

Any elk at the same distance and rifle since elk is what this thread is about?

how many elk has he killed with a ar according to Google?

You tell me. Apparently you know him personally. I don't.

Never have shaken the dudes hand. But have had a few dealings with him to let me know that he is the real deal. I do hope to meet him tho.

[bobcat]

Wait... Didn't you think Matt Alwine was "the real deal"?

[BULLBLASTER]

Wait... Didn't you think Matt Alwine was "the real deal"?

There was a time that I hunted with Matt and I did learn a lot from him. I haven't hunted with or really associated with him for numerous years tho. I will say that he is passionate about hunting and the outdoors. And can shoot a bow

[BULLBLASTER]

Wait... Didn't you think Matt Alwine was "the real deal"?

I'm sure you try and bring my judgement of character into this.
Since this is brought up I'll tell what I think.
I thin you give lots and lots and lots of advice to questions you have zero experience about and claim to mostly be an expert of... Well... Everything.
Next time I have any questio. Or anything I'll be sure to put it all on pause and ask you if it's ok and ethical...
 

[Karl Blanchard]

Bro's got Google skills

[emac]

I knew a guy that  carried a hole box of ammo in the field      ...... heck with a AR you can Cary it in the clip. Plus if you take unethical shots you get to shoot more 

The more lead you sling the better odds you have:D8)

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[bobcat]

No, not so much your judge of character, just that you can't possibly know someone just from what they post on this forum. You apparently feel biggerhammer has the expertise to kill elk at 600 yards with an AR15. Then to find out you really don't know him, other than from his posts on here.

You don't know me and don't know what I have experience in, so for you to say I have zero experience in the advice that I give- well, you simply don't know, because you don't know me. Just like you don't know biggerhammer.

But I've lived in this state for 48 years and hunted for 36 of those years. So I'd say I do have quite a bit of knowledge to offer. If you don't think my posts are worth reading, then don't read them, and certainly don't waste your time replying to them.

[JDHasty]

There's a place full of village idiots.

You and I can agree on that!  Again I have friends who have recovered the "petals" from a Barnes X that were under the skin on the entry side and they said that the bullet went through and exited leaving no more wound than a pencil would have.  Me thinks the petals were sheared off after opening and the shank continued on through.  Fluid dynamics is what is at play here and fluids are not compressible and with impact velocities that are higher than the fluids can migrate out they act in much the same way that a solid would and the petals will be sheared off.  This leaves a solid cylinder with a caliber diameter and a LOT of linear stability with sufficient momentum "behind it" to carry it completely through the animal.  Thus a caliber hole through the animal.  Four petals flying along the outside if the rib cage are going to cut until they run out of momentum, but are not doing any thing but cutting muscle tissue that has no major arteries in it.  The petals cause nothing more than a "cutting flesh wound" in rib tissue that has no major arteries.

In the case of the Nos Partition there is a big contusion outside the ribs when the nose "splashes" and then the shank minus any additional diameter continues on and drills a caliber size hole before exiting.

I don't use Barnes X, but I do use Nos Partitions and all of this is based on my engineering backround and a lot of thought about what is the reality vs what people report about bullets not opening up at high velocity.  Caliber size entrance and caliber size exit wound and a hole through the vitals that is also caliber size.  The shank of both has the rational velocity to ensure point forward stability at those velocities to continue on and there is no bullet expansion possible and a 30 caliber bullet is not going to disrupt much if any tissue and you do the math from here on out.  What they observed was a caliber size entry a caliber size exit wound and a caliber size pass through of a soft organ, which in the case of lung is mostly air.  The bullet failed to expand!!  No what you failed to appreciate is that in the case of the Barnes X there were four?? lacerations radiating out under the skin that were the petals sheering off and cutting until they ran out of momentum.   What you failed to appreciate is the contusion in the tissue between the entry wound and the ribs that resulted from "bullet splash" as the nose of the Nos Partition exploded before the ribs were penetrated and the shank continued on at caliber with a lot of linear stability and exited front first on the off side.   

Both of these bullets nose did what lead and copper do.  Period.  Full stop.  They have a structural integrity that was exceeded and in the case of the Barnes they sheared off at the shank and in the case of the Nosler the lead fragmented.  And both did that before the onside ribs had been penetrated!  Thus what was reported was a caliber size hole and THE BULLET FAILED TO EXPAND!!!  As with most anecdotal evidence, what was not reported was what was most important.  There was a large contusion between the skin and ribs on the onside of the Nos Partition and there were lacerations radiating out between the skin and the ribs in the case of the Barnes.  AND let me make it clear, I am no special pleader for either, especially Barnes.  I will have a hatred towards that company until the day I die due to their pushing of "lead free" twenty-five years ago. 

The 200 gr or 180 gr 30 cal Nos Partition is the bullet I use but I recognize this dynamic and choose to live with it.  It is an "iffy" performer at close range with the caliber I choose to hunt with.  300 Wby.  My other option is bullets that may fragment at the ranges I hunt big game with a rifle at at ranges that I expect to get a shot at.           

[BULLBLASTER]

Ok bobcat. You have admittedly zero experience in at r 15 hunting platforms.. You said it in this thread.
Another example I will bring up is a post that you sent me a pm about... Regarding bullets and performance for moose  hunting. You admitted that you haven't killed a moose.  You contradicted my advice that came from actually killing a moose...

You think I am only basing my opinion on bigger hammer by his posts here? That's funny. You don't know how well I may know him... Because I admittedly haven't met him in person, all I know is from his posts! I couldn't have possibly have talked to him on the phone? Or communicated in other ways?

[JDHasty]

Nothing is absolute.  Everything is a probability.  One story of knocking down an elk at 600 yards with a .22 Hornet doesn't make it the best choice for going after that quarry at that yardage.  There are an awful lot of "single instance" stories here, as though one data point can clearly define a probability.  There are so many factors (variables) that there is not an absolute answer. 

If you can think in terms of probabilities (or "shades of grey"), it's probably always wise to do your best to increase the probabilities of a clean, quick kill.  If that is "ethical", I'm all for it.

You and me brother!

[JDHasty]

No, not so much your judge of character, just that you can't possibly know someone just from what they post on this forum. You apparently feel biggerhammer has the expertise to kill elk at 600 yards with an AR15. Then to find out you really don't know him, other than from his posts on here.

You don't know me and don't know what I have experience in, so for you to say I have zero experience in the advice that I give- well, you simply don't know, because you don't know me. Just like you don't know biggerhammer.

But I've lived in this state for 48 years and hunted for 36 of those years. So I'd say I do have quite a bit of knowledge to offer. If you don't think my posts are worth reading, then don't read them, and certainly don't waste your time replying to them.

 

[Karl Blanchard]

Pretty easy for those who live it and that have been there done that, to smell the b.s.