Ethical to shoot past 400 yards at elk w/AR15 based rifle? Yes/No

[Karl Blanchard]

NO, I am saying that an elk that is hit doesn't always act the way you expect them to.  That elk was dead on it's feet but making for a getaway.  In the snow, in Montana, he wasn't going to get away either. 

His liver and one lung were gone to pulp.  An elk is one tough hombre' is what I am saying.  If an elk is not broken down with both shoulders broken and the bullet has not done serious lung damage I would not bet on bringing it to bag.   

I have never shot a single elk in the shoulder and I don't ever plan to.  It's a huge waste of meat and I eat what I kill.  I've literally been part of 200+ big game kills over the last decade and I would say 80% of those did not involve shoulder shots or heavy bone being broken.

[yorketransport]

I left for work this morning and this thread was on page 4! I feel like I'm late to the party.

It seems like there is some concern about shooting minimalist calibers at elk at extended ranges because of the possibility of an errant shot thrown off by wind. Doesn't it seem likely that the individual who essentially prompted this whole discussion (cough, cough, Biggerhammer, cough, cough ) is probably smart enough to hold off on a shot when there's a 20mph cross wind?

Is this 800 foot pound number something that the OP and Bobcat can agree on?

I know that that's my minimum energy requirement for shooting porcupines so it seems a little low for deer or elk. The added kinetic energy (which is a relatively meaningless number when applied to killing power) helps make up for when the wind drifts the bullet and I hit them a little far forward or to the rear. You see, I like to compensate for poor shooting by stepping up in caliber.  Likewise the only rifle cartridge I'll shoot elk with beyond 100 yards is one based off of either the 416 barrett case or possibly the Cheytac case. I find that the excessive amounts of recoil and muzzle blast from larger cartridges makes me a better shot and therefor a more ethical hunter.

[Buckhunter24]

I was vacationing and shot a spike elk around Redlodge, thirty plus years ago, using my father's loaned 270 Model 70.  I hit him in the chest at an angle from behind and the bullet wrecked his offside shoulder and he went down.  But that quick he was on his feet and going away at a good pace  when my second shot at about two hundred yards spined him.  This first shot was at < 70 yards and that made me come to respect elk as a tough customer
     

If I'm picturing this shot right it doesn't sound ideal

[JDHasty]

I was vacationing and shot a spike elk around Redlodge, thirty plus years ago, using my father's loaned 270 Model 70.  I hit him in the chest at an angle from behind and the bullet wrecked his offside shoulder and he went down.  But that quick he was on his feet and going away at a good pace  when my second shot at about two hundred yards spined him.  This first shot was at < 70 yards and that made me come to respect elk as a tough customer.         

So now you're saying a 270 isn't enough gun either?

and since he made a poor shot with a bow, a 6.5 G is inadequate for large game.

That elk was hit about 2/3 0f the way up and that is considered good shot placement and in most cases it would/should have been lights out for that elk, but like I said elk don't always do what you expect them to.  I was standing there, like a big dummy, just waiting for it to die instead of running up and putting another arrow in it.  When it got to it's feet and took off I was unprepared to shoot and stood there with my mouth agape.  I saw the arrow go in and a spot of blood right where I was aiming before it tumbled over.  I figure the hit in the rib tweeked the spine when it hit that rib and that is what tumbled it.

Since that day an elk is not down for keeps until it is dead!     

[yorketransport]

I was vacationing and shot a spike elk around Redlodge, thirty plus years ago, using my father's loaned 270 Model 70.  I hit him in the chest at an angle from behind and the bullet wrecked his offside shoulder and he went down.  But that quick he was on his feet and going away at a good pace  when my second shot at about two hundred yards spined him.  This first shot was at < 70 yards and that made me come to respect elk as a tough customer.         

So now you're saying a 270 isn't enough gun either?

and since he made a poor shot with a bow, a 6.5 G is inadequate for large game.

That elk was hit about 2/3 0f the way up and that is considered good shot placement and in most cases it would/should have been lights out for that elk, but like I said elk don't always do what you expect them to.  I was standing there, like a big dummy, just waiting for it to die instead of running up and putting another arrow in it.  When it got to it's feet and took off I was unprepared to shoot and stood there with my mouth agape.  I saw the arrow go in and a spot of blood right where I was aiming before it tumbled over.  I figure the hit in the rib tweeked the spine when it hit that rib and that is what tumbled it.

Since that day an elk is not down for keeps until it is dead!   

You know, with an AR you could have made a quick follow up shot and finished the job instead of letting the animal run off.

[coachcw]

So why do you want to shoot a elk in the shoulder?  It just  makes a mess and loses meat. I never shoot elk there . I  have shot elk with 8mm mag. 338 mags , 270, 270 wby, 30-378. .243 and 6.5 284.   The only one that  didn't take a step was with a 140 vld out of a 6.5 . I want a bullet that  leaves all its energy in the animal . I will pick a very accurate gun over a powerful one every time . Again I'm sure there is plenty of AR rifles that  shoot well enough to kill out past 800 yards .  I have kill just a few elk with a bow ( 25 to 30 ) and will say any elk punched threw both lungs  is done , you  can get on the trail with zero wait and walk to your animal ... I have found that to be true 100 % of the time . One lung and or the liver not so much . Oh yeah wasn't this thread  about AR s?

[JDHasty]

I was vacationing and shot a spike elk around Redlodge, thirty plus years ago, using my father's loaned 270 Model 70.  I hit him in the chest at an angle from behind and the bullet wrecked his offside shoulder and he went down.  But that quick he was on his feet and going away at a good pace  when my second shot at about two hundred yards spined him.  This first shot was at < 70 yards and that made me come to respect elk as a tough customer
     

If I'm picturing this shot right it doesn't sound ideal

Behind the ribs, quartering forward, into the off shoulder, after passing through the liver and a lung?  It was maybe a tad bit far back, but not bad shot placement.  I'll take it any day.  It was a killing shot, the elk just did not know it.  My second shot he was down hill from me on a flat and headed straight away and I had a lot of elk to shoot at and that shot took him dead center and that crashed him.   

[Biggerhammer]

Bullet proof Elk!  I've read it all now.

[coachcw]

I think it might be time to put a AR together just to watch karl shoot something with it !

[JDHasty]

So why do you want to shoot a elk in the shoulder?  It just  makes a mess and loses meat. I never shoot elk there . I  have shot elk with 8mm mag. 338 mags , 270, 270 wby, 30-378. .243 and 6.5 284.   The only one that  didn't take a step was with a 140 vld out of a 6.5 . I want a bullet that  leaves all its energy in the animal . I will pick a very accurate gun over a powerful one every time . Again I'm sure there is plenty of AR rifles that  shoot well enough to kill out past 800 yards .  I have kill just a few elk with a bow ( 25 to 30 ) and will say any elk punched threw both lungs  is done , you  can get on the trail with zero wait and walk to your animal ... I have found that to be true 100 % of the time . One lung and or the liver not so much . Oh yeah wasn't this thread  about AR s?

I don't want to shoot an elk in the shoulder, but if I happen to hit an elk in the shoulder I would like to think that I am shooting enough gun to break it down. 

[coachcw]

So what your saying is you take unethical shots that your not sure you can hit where your aiming ? ..?. Let me say that a elk hit in the shoulder  with a 30/06  ish  whether it be 200 or 500 yards can pack it along ways . In less your into hi shoulder shock shots it's not a good place  . Ten inches behind the shoulder mid body with a vld from a .243 , or any  6.5 or 308 will flat destroy that elks lungs ....... same spot with a Barnes x out of my 30/378  just makes a pencil hole  due  to the extreme hi volocitys.  BOBCAT YOUR  vld statement is pretty ignorant  from a performance start point .

[Buckhunter24]

I was vacationing and shot a spike elk around Redlodge, thirty plus years ago, using my father's loaned 270 Model 70.  I hit him in the chest at an angle from behind and the bullet wrecked his offside shoulder and he went down.  But that quick he was on his feet and going away at a good pace  when my second shot at about two hundred yards spined him.  This first shot was at < 70 yards and that made me come to respect elk as a tough customer
     

If I'm picturing this shot right it doesn't sound ideal

Behind the ribs, quartering forward, into the off shoulder, after passing through the liver and a lung?  It was maybe a tad bit far back, but not bad shot placement.  I'll take it any day.  It was a killing shot, the elk just did not know it.  My second shot he was down hill from me on a flat and headed straight away and I had a lot of elk to shoot at and that shot took him dead center and that crashed him.   

I wouldn't consider a shot intentionally put into a shoulder a good shot.

[Biggerhammer]

I would think, I may be going out on a limb here. that a .30 Cal 230gr OTM/VLD @ 2850 would totally juice a Elk shoulder and both lungs at ranges waaaaaaaaaay out there. I would have to give the arm chair, Internet super hunt Rangers the appropriate time to GOOGLE it thoroughly.

[coachcw]

I would think, I may be going out on a limb here. that a .30 Cal 230gr OTM/VLD @ 2850 would totally juice a Elk shoulder at ranges waaaaaaaaaay out there.

that could be considered wasting game ! Lol

[coachcw]

I guess the government tag holder is glad this thread was started