? for you ballistic gurus

[jay.sharkbait]

[jackelope]

How am I supposed to "keep reading" a video?

[yorketransport]

I keep reading but I can't figure out what this topic was originally about!

Some people are insecure enough to shoot 300RUM just for the extra 100fps.

If 100 fps isn't a meaningful increase in velocity, doesn't that make the velocity advantage of a 4" barreled 357 insignificant when compared to a 2.5" 357? The Buffalo Bore comparison isn't really meaningful unless we get all of the data on the specific load used in that example. I love theoretical debates, but we need to have all of the info to actually make a comparison. Otherwise you end up with a logical fallacy as an argument. Ex:
-A dog is an animal with 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-A cat has 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-Therefore a cat is a dog.

-A 38 special from a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 1027 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-A 357 mag with a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 989 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-Therefore a 38 special is equal or superior to a 357 mag from a 1 7/8" barrel.

If I'm loading 125gr bullets for a 2.5" 357 mag I'd use a different powder than I would for a 6" barrel to make up for the shorter burn time in the shorter barrel. More importantly I wouldn't be using a 125 gr bullet in a 2.5" 357 as a 4 legged critter defense gun in the woods. Something in the 150-180gr range is more appropriate. Like wise I wouldn't use a 180gr bullet in a 38 special ever, for any reason! It's all about matching the load to the gun to the situation. I think a stubby barreled 357 would do just fine if it were needed. Personally I'd go for something significantly larger than a 357 in any length. That's why we have a 41 Mag!

[jackelope]

I keep reading but I can't figure out what this topic was originally about!

Some people are insecure enough to shoot 300RUM just for the extra 100fps.

If 100 fps isn't a meaningful increase in velocity, doesn't that make the velocity advantage of a 4" barreled 357 insignificant when compared to a 2.5" 357? The Buffalo Bore comparison isn't really meaningful unless we get all of the data on the specific load used in that example. I love theoretical debates, but we need to have all of the info to actually make a comparison. Otherwise you end up with a logical fallacy as an argument. Ex:
-A dog is an animal with 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-A cat has 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-Therefore a cat is a dog.

-A 38 special from a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 1027 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-A 357 mag with a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 989 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-Therefore a 38 special is equal or superior to a 357 mag from a 1 7/8" barrel.

If I'm loading 125gr bullets for a 2.5" 357 mag I'd use a different powder than I would for a 6" barrel to make up for the shorter burn time in the shorter barrel. More importantly I wouldn't be using a 125 gr bullet in a 2.5" 357 as a 4 legged critter defense gun in the woods. Something in the 150-180gr range is more appropriate. Like wise I wouldn't use a 180gr bullet in a 38 special ever, for any reason! It's all about matching the load to the gun to the situation. I think a stubby barreled 357 would do just fine if it were needed. Personally I'd go for something significantly larger than a 357 in any length. That's why we have a 41 Mag!

Ummm, you're supposed to say keep reading.

[BULLBLASTER]

I keep reading but I can't figure out what this topic was originally about!

Some people are insecure enough to shoot 300RUM just for the extra 100fps.

If 100 fps isn't a meaningful increase in velocity, doesn't that make the velocity advantage of a 4" barreled 357 insignificant when compared to a 2.5" 357? The Buffalo Bore comparison isn't really meaningful unless we get all of the data on the specific load used in that example. I love theoretical debates, but we need to have all of the info to actually make a comparison. Otherwise you end up with a logical fallacy as an argument. Ex:
-A dog is an animal with 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-A cat has 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-Therefore a cat is a dog.

-A 38 special from a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 1027 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-A 357 mag with a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 989 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-Therefore a 38 special is equal or superior to a 357 mag from a 1 7/8" barrel.

If I'm loading 125gr bullets for a 2.5" 357 mag I'd use a different powder than I would for a 6" barrel to make up for the shorter burn time in the shorter barrel. More importantly I wouldn't be using a 125 gr bullet in a 2.5" 357 as a 4 legged critter defense gun in the woods. Something in the 150-180gr range is more appropriate. Like wise I wouldn't use a 180gr bullet in a 38 special ever, for any reason! It's all about matching the load to the gun to the situation. I think a stubby barreled 357 would do just fine if it were needed. Personally I'd go for something significantly larger than a 357 in any length. That's why we have a 41 Mag!

Ummm, you're supposed to say keep reading.

[Biggerhammer]

[JDHasty]

My advice re: wild animals is the same as my advice re: train tracks.  Stay well away from them.  Always.  Period.  A lot of people get killed by the latter because they have no respect for trains.  It is my impression that few people get killed by the former because they keep their distance from wild animals like bears. 

But if you pick wild blue huck in the fall and are in berry patches... a couple pounds of insurance isn't that much of a burden.   

This topic of velocity -vs- bullet weight is one that has gone on ever since smokeless powder and jacketed bullets became the norm.  When looking at self defense against an animal with a tough hide and heavy muscle and strong bones momentum can not play second fiddle to energy. 

Energy favors velocity, and by a wide margin.  But what is all important is that the bullet stay intact and have sufficient momentum to carry it into the vitals or through bone like shoulder or bone or a bear skull and that depends having sufficient momentum behind a bullet that maintains it's structural integrity long enough to get into the vitals or through the skull.

A bullet that expands rapidly will shed velocity after impact because of the increased frontal area.  And a bullet that fragments will by definition lose weight and that may compromise deep penetration, but at handgun velocities the latter is probably not going to be a concern unless we are looking at a flying ashtray 45 ACP bullet shot from a 454 Casull.

I would not feel confident in a light 38 Special bullet being a better choice than a slower heavy 357 bullet even if the latter has significantly lower velocity, and both have the same exact retained momentum upon impact, simply because the sectional density of a comparably constructed heavier bullet will result in deeper, and hopefully adequate, penetration.  Lighter bullets of the same caliber deflect more for two reasons, they lack mass and they have a lower sectional density and as sectional density increases linear stability follows in a directly proportional relation.     

Both the faster 38 Special and the 357 will shed velocity upon impact and while they penetrate.  But if the correct bullet is chosen they will retain almost all their weight and the mathematical equations that model the physics of velocity loss of a bullet penetrating any substance take into consideration of, and account for, bullet weight and a lighter bullet sheds velocity at enough of a higher rate that the heavier bullet at a lower impact velocity (within reason) always performs better when deep penetration is what is on the table.

The reason I put "within reason" in that statement is that there is terminal bullet performance to consider.  If we are considering jacketed bullets and even if we include flat nosed lead or alloy bullets - terminal performance is a function of surface area of the flat frontal area of a bullet and area is not a linear function of diameter.  It is again a function of the (Caliber/2 squared) times Pi.  I put that in because some people may want to look at a 327 Hornaday and the energy that a hard cast flat nosed can deliver and want to say that if a hard cast 38 out of a short 357 lighter hard cast 32 out of a lighter weight and easier to pack SP101 are ~ equal... 

I bring this up because you only get to die once.  The terminal ballistics of a 38 and a 32 caliber bullet that both rely on a flat frontal area both with the same striking energy diverge greatly.  The difference, even if both retained the same velocity once they were past the skin and bone and got to where they could do some good is easy to put a number on and compare.  It is the difference of (caliber/2 squared)xPi in how much tissue they will displace and send flying. 

If we discount a brain shot or a heart shot it probably does not make sense to rely on a hard cast, flat nose, bullet though.  And can we all agree that a pure lead bullet of the weights appropriate for use in a revolver would just flatten out if they encounter heavy bone?   

My intent is that this leaves the discussion to a handgun firing jacketed bullets that can and will expand and still have sufficient momentum to penetrate to the quickly fatal vital areas on a chest hit and can penetrate the skull and reach the brain.

I think a 357 firing a heavy bullet is the bare minimum, I see a 10mm semi -auto pistol as the best compromise between portability and power, but I cary a Model 13 with heavy bullets when I am out berry picking in September because that is what I have.         

 
 

[mountainman]

One time, in a chase w/o a side arm, resorted to kicking the Crap out of a medium sized bear, which happened to have the head of our strike dog in it's mouth. Waiting for the shooter to get there with his gun. A mistake only made once! Even a 38 special would have been welcome at that point!

[JDHasty]

On time, in a Chase w/I a side arm, resorted to kicking the Crap out of a medium sized bear, which happened to have the head of our strike dog in it's mouth. Waiting for the shooter to get there with his gun. A mistake only made once! Even a 38 special would have been welcome at that point!

No doubt!  When a bear turns and ground fights instead of treeing, if you have dogs that won't back down in the pack, a fight favors the bear and it will only end one way unless you can get there and end it.  You will lose your boldest dogs and that is never a good thing for a pack.   

[Biggerhammer]

3 bowls of crap ,can't begin to equal a teaspoon of sense.