decent groupings beyond 300 yds with factory ammo?

[wooltie]

Question for those experienced handloaders and factory ammo shooters--

Can achieve a decent grouping beyond 300 yards with factory ammo?

Suppose benchrest conditions, you know how to shoot, you have 1 moa groups at 100 yards, using a common round (.308/30-06/.270).  Can you maintain an accurate and precise group at 350? 400?  Or does your 3-4" group at 300 yards become a 5-6" group at 300 yds?

[Jonathan_S]

Question for those experienced handloaders and factory ammo shooters--

Can achieve a decent grouping beyond 300 yards with factory ammo?

Suppose benchrest conditions, you know how to shoot, you have 1 moa groups at 100 yards, using a common round (.308/30-06/.270).  Can you maintain an accurate and precise group at 350? 400?  Or does your 3-4" group at 300 yards become a 5-6" group at 300 yds?

If you are shooting 1.5 MOA at 100 then (in theory) you are shooting 1.5 MOA at 500 which should be considered unacceptable for medium-long range hunting.

Now if you find a good factory ammunition that is consistent enough and groups in your specific weapon at 100 yards, let it run at 300 and see what you find.

[JDHasty]

Question for those experienced handloaders and factory ammo shooters--

Can achieve a decent grouping beyond 300 yards with factory ammo?

Suppose benchrest conditions, you know how to shoot, you have 1 moa groups at 100 yards, using a common round (.308/30-06/.270).  Can you maintain an accurate and precise group at 350? 400?  Or does your 3-4" group at 300 yards become a 5-6" group at 300 yds?

If you are shooting 1.5 MOA at 100 then (in theory) you are shooting 1.5 MOA at 500 which should be considered unacceptable for medium-long range hunting.

Now if you find a good factory ammunition that is consistent enough and groups in your specific weapon at 100 yards, let it run at 300 and see what you find.

It depends.  If you are shooting 1.5 MOA at 100 you are not necessarily shooting 1.5 MOA at 500.  There are a lot of factors that come into play, but if you have an accurate 100 yard load that is a good place to start when looking for an accurate long range load. 

[Jonathan_S]

Yes, that is why I said "in theory"

[Bob33]

"Factory" vs. "handload" makes no difference once the bullet leaves the barrel.

If a factory load is accurate enough then, it's accurate enough. The definition of "enough" will depend on your requirements. A gun/load combination that shoots 1.5 MOA at 100 yards should in theory shoot 1.5 MOA at 500 yards which is approximately a 7.5" group size. That should be more than good enough for a larger animal such as an elk but probably marginal for a smaller animal such as an antelope.

The Distance/MOA relationship can change as distances increase due to factors such as wind, which matters little at 100 yards but at 500 yards could easily move a bullet a foot or more.

The only way to know for sure it to shoot some paper at various distances. Once group sizes start getting larger than 6'-8" you're probably reaching an ethical limit.

FYI I've shot some very accurate factory ammunition that groups well at 600 yards.

[theleo]

I'll be the stick in the mud and go head and say it, your rifle will like what it likes.

You may stumble onto a rifle that absolutely loves Remington green box ammo and shoots it incredibly well or you might get a rifle that absolutely hates every factory round you feed it. Hand loading simply lets us play with more variables but that doesn't mean that all those variables won't add up to being the exact same round as one that comes out of a factory.

[ELKBURGER]

I feel that most factory loads are as consistent as the average hand loader's loads.

[Jonathan_S]

I feel that most factory loads are as consistent as the average hand loader's loads.

It's often more about finding the right load combo than the consistency of powder/seating depth/etc.

[JDHasty]

I feel that most factory loads are as consistent as the average hand loader's loads.

I don't have an opinion.  I doubt I have shot more than ten twenty-round boxes of factory loaded center-fire rifle ammo in my life and I used to get it given to me @ no charge.

[DOUBLELUNG]

My .308 will average 0.6" groups at 100 yards with its preferred factory ammo, more like 1.5" at 200yards, 2.5-3" at 300, 5-6" at 400.  Shooting prone off bipod to mimic hunting conditions.  I blame environmental variables and the loose nut behind the trigger for the worse than algebraic performance at longer ranges. 

[jkononen]

Don't forget your speed not being consistent with factory ammo. So even if your gun groups 1 moa at 100 it won't group that at 500.

[kentrek]

I've always found too much velocity deviation in factory ammo....i haven't ran everything through a chrono but a pretty good amount and was always suprised of how poor the results are

I missed a bear due to this

[Bill W]

The math guys tell me that group sizes don't get bigger in a linear fashion.    Wind and mirage have more of an impact on group size at the longer distances.

If I had a gun that grouped 7.5 inches at 500 yards per Jonathan's example I wouldn't rule out a 500 yard shot if the conditions are favorable.   The kill zone on a deer is 10 inches x 10 inches.

[Jonathan_S]

The math guys tell me that group sizes don't get bigger in a linear fashion.    Wind and mirage have more of an impact on group size at the longer distances.

If I had a gun that grouped 7.5 inches at 500 yards per Jonathan's example I wouldn't rule out a 500 yard shot if the conditions are favorable.   The kill zone on a deer is 10 inches x 10 inches.

That 7.5 inches is not factoring human error though. Somebody who settles for 1.5 MOA probably settles for not that much range time 

[Reidus]

If you have 2 loads 1 factory and 1 handload that both shoot 1moa at 100 yd, the one with a more consistent velocity will most likely be more accurate at 500 yds. If the bc's are different it will also make a difference. I've gotten paper plate size groups with factory ammo in my savage 300 wsm at 500 yds. I may be able to reduce this a little with handloads but it works pretty good for hunting.

[Taco280AI]

Only one way to really know, go out and try.

I've shot groups at 200 yards that were the same size as my 100 yards groups. I've shot "groups" at 200 that left me scratching my head as well.

Now that my rifle/loads have proven themselves at 100 (averaging  sub .4" with a 6x scope) I've changed my shooting. The last few times I shot in the mountains I wasn't going for groups anymore, just pick out rocks at different ranges and shoot them. If I can hit the rocks, I can hit the vitals. Have gone to 589 so far.

[Bill W]

The math guys tell me that group sizes don't get bigger in a linear fashion.    Wind and mirage have more of an impact on group size at the longer distances.

If I had a gun that grouped 7.5 inches at 500 yards per Jonathan's example I wouldn't rule out a 500 yard shot if the conditions are favorable.   The kill zone on a deer is 10 inches x 10 inches.

That 7.5 inches is not factoring human error though. Somebody who settles for 1.5 MOA probably settles for not that much range time 

The shooter has has a gun that he and the gun shoot 1.5 MOA.   To me that already has human error factored in.   Wind, mirage and group enlargement not being linear will increase group size.

[Bill W]

Only one way to really know, go out and try.

I've shot groups at 200 yards that were the same size as my 100 yards groups. I've shot "groups" at 200 that left me scratching my head as well.

Now that my rifle/loads have proven themselves at 100 (averaging  sub .4" with a 6x scope) I've changed my shooting. The last few times I shot in the mountains I wasn't going for groups anymore, just pick out rocks at different ranges and shoot them. If I can hit the rocks, I can hit the vitals. Have gone to 589 so far.

A method I've used that's along the line of shooting rocks.   Take a week and go hunt prairie dogs in Montana.   Walk the dogs up and use a bipod on the gun.   A shooting mat would be advised because of prickly pear.   Once you get to where you can hit a fair number of dogs at 500 yards there's close to no way to miss a deer unless the shooter gets buck fever.    I used to carry a Rem 700 Varmint Special in .223.  One needs to pay attention to wind with that one.   My longest hit was 550 yards as I didn't attempt any past that point.

[JDHasty]

Only one way to really know, go out and try.

I've shot groups at 200 yards that were the same size as my 100 yards groups. I've shot "groups" at 200 that left me scratching my head as well.

Now that my rifle/loads have proven themselves at 100 (averaging  sub .4" with a 6x scope) I've changed my shooting. The last few times I shot in the mountains I wasn't going for groups anymore, just pick out rocks at different ranges and shoot them. If I can hit the rocks, I can hit the vitals. Have gone to 589 so far.

A method I've used that's along the line of shooting rocks.   Take a week and go hunt prairie dogs in Montana.   Walk the dogs up and use a bipod on the gun.   A shooting mat would be advised because of prickly pear.   Once you get to where you can hit a fair number of dogs at 500 yards there's close to no way to miss a deer unless the shooter gets buck fever.    I used to carry a Rem 700 Varmint Special in .223.  One needs to pay attention to wind with that one.   My longest hit was 550 yards as I didn't attempt any past that point.

Me too.  I go through north of 4,000 rounds of ammo when I go over and by the end of the week I am pretty well tuned up.