sabots not opening equally

[71Shovelhead]

I have a question about Harvester crush rib sabots. I'm currently shooting 300gr Bloodline with 100gr T7FF. Excellent accuracy 2" groups at 150yds.
Question is my sabots are not opening equally. Some look like they haven't even been shot, others are slightly open and others fully open. Variety of ranges from muzzle. Being very accurate with each powder charge and seating pressure.

Any Ideas

[The100Road]

I believe those are designed to have the pedals break off once they contact soft tissue. Maybe that's why they arnt opening properly? 

 sabotloader will have a bunch more info on this. 

[Sabotloader]

I have a question about Harvester crush rib sabots. I'm currently shooting 300gr Bloodline with 100gr T7FF. Excellent accuracy 2" groups at 150yds.
Question is my sabots are not opening equally. Some look like they haven't even been shot, others are slightly open and others fully open. Variety of ranges from muzzle. Being very accurate with each powder charge and seating pressure.

Any Ideas

I really would not worry about the condition of the spent sabot or the petals - IF - your accuracy is what you expect.

The force of the bullet out of your barrel again the air will lift the petals the needed amount for the sabot to move off the bullet.  If it doesn't your accuracy would be really bad.

[71Shovelhead]

Thank you SL. I still haven't recovered a bullet as I'm really interested in the terminal deformation of a bloodline.

Terry

[Sabotloader]

Thank you SL. I still haven't recovered a bullet as I'm really interested in the terminal deformation of a bloodline.

Terry

Terry, I am on the road right now be back middle of the week then I will have some information to share with you

mike

[71Shovelhead]

Thanks SL looking forward to the info

Terry

[Sabotloader]

I have a question about Harvester crush rib sabots. I'm currently shooting 300gr Bloodline with 100gr T7FF. Excellent accuracy 2" groups at 150yds.
Question is my sabots are not opening equally. Some look like they haven't even been shot, others are slightly open and others fully open. Variety of ranges from muzzle. Being very accurate with each powder charge and seating pressure.

Any Ideas

Better late than never - I hope!

The Lehigh/Bloodine bullet is designated as a 'controlled fracturing' bullet.  I think the basic principle for the bullet came from Germany. 

My own opinion it is by far the best bullet I have used for hunting.  I never thought I would be able to replace the Nosler Partitions that I grew with and hunted with most of my life, but this bullet offers better 'Terminal Ballistics' and at my age that is very important.

The bullet I am using for an example is the Lehigh .458-305gr. CF.  It is designed for the 45-70 government and operates the same way your Bloodline .458-300 gr. do.

The bullet is solid brass and is designed to penetrate as well to devastate the internal organs



As you look at the bullet is will pass through the hide and bone pretty much as you see it... very little deformity to the bullet - penetration.  As it passes through the body when it contacts a fluid body the petals will open very quickly to 40*.  At 40* the petals will shear and rotate out into the surrounding organs causing a large blood loss and often rupturing the organ. The petals are so light (6 grains) they can not move in meat and stop in a very short distance.

The second part of the bullet continuous on... the concave cup at the bottom of the petals creates very fast stream of blood up and out. The sharp edges of the base of the petals also creates a cutting action.  In combination the core of the bullet creates a really heavy hydrostatic shock wave in the animal.  Actually in a lot of ways the core of the bullet acts like an older Keith Nose lead conical.  Normally in most case the core will exit the body on the other side offering a really good blood trail

This picture shows what I am trying to say - just wish I were a better writer....

 

Finally one of the members on another forum that has tested several bullet in a home made medium and has capture the bullet core presented this picture of the core....  I have shot several animals with a Lehigh Defense or a Bloodline bullet but I have never found one to display.



Hope this makes some sense...

Here is a link to the test.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/407664-245g-lehigh-50g-blackhorn.html

[71Shovelhead]

Thanks for the information sabotloader.

[Sabotloader]

Sabotloader, the Lehigh/Bloodline .45 caliber bullet looks very efficient on multiple levels. Are you shooting with sabots out of a .50? I have .50's and .54's and was wondering if working up a load for my .54 would possibly burn more evenly and efficiently like the modern rifle short magnums. My understanding of the short magnums is they benefit from the wide shape to ignite and burn the powder more efficiently. Do you think this could be a possibility for a large caliber muzzleloader (short fat load spread farther across the breech). I could go bigger than .54 if need be and have the sabot work in a way resembling the bottleneck of a modern short magnum. Have you tried any sort of wildcatting with a muzzleloader? Possibly a different shape sabot, the base open in a bottleneck shape, may show some promise after some work and research. Just wondering. In my very limited time here, you seem like the go to guy on sabot loads for muzzleloaders. If you know anyone interested in testing some theories send them my way. Thanks.

Lefthook

I shoot more .458 size bullets than I do .452, but with the introduction of the new Lehigh .452x265 that might be changing. I hunt all the time now with a muzzleloader including our regular rifle season.  During the regular rifle season I do use a 'modern' ML and I do shoot bullets wrapped in a sabot.  Idaho is still in the dark ages when it comes to ML season we are required to shoot full bore lead conicals. The ML projectile requirement really does not change the way I hunt or even the ranges that I feel confident in shooting.  200+ a wee bit of yards is my personal max range.

During the rifle season I do use sabots in my 50 cal. rifles, I still have a couple of 54 cal. ML's but they are side-hammers with a 1:48 twist ration and I have ventured away from them to the faster twist 50's.  But just for informational facts I use to shoot a lot of sabots out of my 54 Renegades.

If your 54's are of the faster twist variety and you were wanting to shoot sabots from it... well today there would be a lot of options since they also now make a 54x50 cal sabot and with the advent of the 50 cal. pistols there are a variety of bullets available.  I have never shot this load but Speer makes a 50x300gr. Gold Dot that I am sure would even shoot extremely well out of even a 1:48 twist.

As far as your thought about efficient powder burn.... because of the nature of burning black powder or a black powder substitute (other than BH209) I am not sure your theory would prevail.  These powders are not progressive burning like smokeless powders (again excluding BH-209 which is a Smokeless - progressive burning power - (engineered to replicate the burning of regular BP).  It has been shown that shooting a given amount of powder in a 45 cal ML with a common projectile you will develop more velocity/energy than burning the same load in a 50 cal rifle. And then if you could move that same load to a 54 you would experience an even greater loss of velocity/energy.  I am not much of a ballistician but this all relates back to the size of the container that that is holding the explosion.

So I do not know if this has answered any of your thoughts or not...

mike 

[Lefthook]

Sabotloader,

Great information. I have a machinist friend I hunt with on occasion. He is very gifted in his ability to produce beautiful, artistic like metal work. (Not gates and fences- his specialty is intricate, precise microscopic detailed quality metal fabrication). Note: We won't do any sort of custom rifle chamber work without consulting a professional in the industry.

The idea we have been floating around is creating a bottleneck chamber in the breech of an in-line muzzleloader. The idea was to go in from the breech and create a chamber in the shape of a modern short magnum casing. Once the chamber is machined, a custom breech plug would be produced to fit the new chamber breech.

After considering your insight on black powders different burn rate, eveness of burn, etc. compared to smokeless powder, we might want to go back to the drawing board. You can only tinker with different bullets, sabots, powder, ignition, barrel length etc. for so long before wanting to move forward in a new direction.

Safety is concern number 1. We both would like to hang around, fully intact, to see our work pay off with a full freezer and maybe even a nice full shoulder mount.

Lefthook