Recommend an upgrade for my bow

[djnoodle]

Two years ago, I bought a PSE Stinger 3G from Cabelas, one of the least expensive, most basic RTS bow packages on the market. I left it bone stock, change nothing. Here is why...

The appeal of becoming a bow hunter to me was to get out there and put all of the marketing BS aside and get it down to the basic principles - me and my (modest) bow vs the ungulates. Nothing fancy or expensive. I say that because I could see that there was no end in how much a hunter could spend on a compound bow if they wanted to. I realize that there are some who take my idea to more of an extreme and use diy recurves and extremely primitive bows and I respect that decision, but for me it wasn't about trying to go from one extreme to the other, rather it was about proving to myself that it can be done with just a run-of-the-mill bow. I guess in some ways I wanted to prove that it was at least partly me - my careful planning, my many many hours of relentless practice, my studying of proper technique and form that was responsible for the success when I notched a tag. So I made a vow not to change or upgrade my bow at all until I could prove that to myself.

After two seasons in which I killed both of the animals that I had an opportunity to shoot (5x4 bull first season, 3x3 buck this season) I am ready to say that I am satisfied with myself and my accomplishments. I have completed what I set out to do. I am a bow hunter.

Now to get to the point, [TL;DR - begin here]

Right now, with my target shooting groups as my evidence, I limit myself to a 40 yard max shot. Beyond 40 yards I am not able to hit a deer vital zone every time I shoot. I shot the elk at 35 yards and the deer at 16 yards. I would like to be able to shoot 60 yards with confidence that I can humanly kill the animal that I shoot. At the least, I want my 40 yard groups to be 2-3 inches in diameter. Right now, at 40 yards, my 4 shot groups are inside a dinner plate, but not as tight as I would like.

In order to help me become more accurate and stretch my distance, which component(s) would you recommend I upgrade? I am thinking either a better stabilizer or a sight with more than three pins on it. What do you all recommend? Be specific with brand and model.

Or was I correct right from the start, and I just need to keep it stock and practice even more?


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[Goex2Fwithroundball]

Have you had lessons or instructions? I recommend visiting an archery pro shop and chat with them. There is a great shop in Puyallup. Great Northwest Archery. Doug and Sean will steer you in the right direction.

[djnoodle]

I have spent some time at Lucky Shot in Chehalis. I wouldn't say 'a lot' of time, but some. Ted is great. He helped me a bunch when I was getting started, with sighting in my pins, and some form and technique. I have also received pointers and coaching from various friends, but mostly not first hand. Mostly when I see them and we talk, they make suggestions, and I go home and try them out.

Good advise. I will make more time to practice at a pro shop and ask them for help.


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[copasj]

At two years I would say replace your strings before you look into swapping out rests or sights.  A coworker of my father had a son loose an eye from a worn string breaking while he was shooting.  Lessons is definitely a good suggestion.

I have a 5 pin sight, but the forth and fifth are strictly for practice.  It's a Solaris Flashpoint, but I wouldn't buy another.  It can rattle something awful.

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[highside74]

What type of rest does it currently have? Is it a bisquit style or fall away?
 
Are you shooting a DLoop and a release?

Has it ever been paper tuned by an actual pro shop?

Have you shot or do you shoot with someone that is an experienced archery that can help you with form?

So here are my thoughts...if you don't have consistent form the groups get bigger the further out you shoot. Paper tuning with bad form doesn't make sense. A drop away rest is the most forgiving rest to shoot with bad form because it has the least amount of contact with the arrow. A busquit has the most amount of contact so bad form is magnified. For cost effectiveness with a great product I really like truglo drop a ways.  Generally everywhere for $60. If you have trouble with paper plate size groups at 40 yards you really don't need a 5 pin sight yet. D loop and a good release and a drop away rest is where I would spend my money first. Then form.

As far a form goes here is some tips

Don't punch the trigger.

Don't try and get your pin to sit perfectly still on the target. It needs to float a bit.

Your anker points for your hand and string need to be the same every time.

Make sure you keep your form all the way through the shot. No peeking to see if you hit the target until you have completed your full shot. Bow arm needs to stay up and you need to try and look through the peep even after the peep leaves your face.

Where are you in Western Wa? I can shoot with you if you need some help.

[Special T]

We need some more info on your setup and location.
Nearly every bow will shoot awesome with a hooter shooter. (Mechanical shooting device takes out human error)

We don't know what rest you have but some kind of drop away will shrink the group. I love my Ripcord.
If lessons aren't in the works then purchase a DVD of shooting techniques  and video yourself. There are a bunch of really good drills you can do at home shooting into a block each night. My favorite is getting setup for the shot at 5 yards aim, close eyes and shoot. Concentrate on how it feels to shoot well use all your senses. IMO those 2 purchases (if you don't already have a target to shoot into) will get you the most bang for the buck.

[coachcw]

bow tune is critical , but draw length and anchor point are huge aswell . so many others like vanes and arrow spine . show us your complete set up from arrows to release . let us armchair a bit lol.

[djnoodle]

What type of rest does it currently have? Is it a bisquit style or fall away?
 
Are you shooting a DLoop and a release?

Has it ever been paper tuned by an actual pro shop?

Have you shot or do you shoot with someone that is an experienced archery that can help you with form?

So here are my thoughts...if you don't have consistent form the groups get bigger the further out you shoot. Paper tuning with bad form doesn't make sense. A drop away rest is the most forgiving rest to shoot with bad form because it has the least amount of contact with the arrow. A busquit has the most amount of contact so bad form is magnified. For cost effectiveness with a great product I really like truglo drop a ways.  Generally everywhere for $60. If you have trouble with paper plate size groups at 40 yards you really don't need a 5 pin sight yet. D loop and a good release and a drop away rest is where I would spend my money first. Then form.

As far a form goes here is some tips

Don't punch the trigger.

Don't try and get your pin to sit perfectly still on the target. It needs to float a bit.

Your anker points for your hand and string need to be the same every time.

Make sure you keep your form all the way through the shot. No peeking to see if you hit the target until you have completed your full shot. Bow arm needs to stay up and you need to try and look through the peep even after the peep leaves your face.

Where are you in Western Wa? I can shoot with you if you need some help.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Really good info and advice. I'll try and answer your questions as best as I can.

My bow has a whisker biscuit rest, and a tru-ball assassin release. It has a d loop string too. I have shot a few times with experienced archers and I have filmed myself as well, but not very much on either account. And my bow has not been paper tuned at all.

As far as your advice on form, I really don't want to sound unappreciative and I am certainly not saying that I have mastered these things, but I am aware of them and I do practice with all of these points in mind. Does that make sense? I don't want to say that these things won't help me, they will and the way you explained them is a little different than I've heard before and gives me another perspective to consider, so again, that is great.

I am in Lewis County, and it would be great to shoot with some experienced archers and learn from them.


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[djnoodle]

We need some more info on your setup and location.
Nearly every bow will shoot awesome with a hooter shooter. (Mechanical shooting device takes out human error)

We don't know what rest you have but some kind of drop away will shrink the group. I love my Ripcord.
If lessons aren't in the works then purchase a DVD of shooting techniques  and video yourself. There are a bunch of really good drills you can do at home shooting into a block each night. My favorite is getting setup for the shot at 5 yards aim, close eyes and shoot. Concentrate on how it feels to shoot well use all your senses. IMO those 2 purchases (if you don't already have a target to shoot into) will get you the most bang for the buck.

I have a whisker biscuit rest.

I cannot even imagine shooting with my eyes closed! Even at 5 yards, how many arrows do you lose? I will try this as soon as I get a chance. Where I live, I cannot shoot at my house. I usually shoot at my dad's house. When I get a chance to go there, I will certainly try this one out. I like the idea of trying to use more feeling and even hearing senses by closing my eyes. Forcing my other senses to join in.

Good tip.

How many times do you shoot like that? Once, a single group or several?


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[djnoodle]

bow tune is critical , but draw length and anchor point are huge aswell . so many others like vanes and arrow spine . show us your complete set up from arrows to release . let us armchair a bit lol.

I'll have to get my gear out and take some photos tomorrow after work. Good excuse to shoot it.


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[Special T]

loosing the whisker bisket will increase your accuracy the most. I shot one and as they age they wear out and as others have said they increase contact. a drop away will make the greatest gains per buck.

If you need to pick a large bag target or get closer to the bag than 5 yards... % is pretty close however and shoot it with your eyes open first to see your impact point. You shouldnt loose ANY arrows and you should get to the point where you can hit a 2" circle with your eyes closed. The drill is all about muscle memory.

[demontang]

There is a lot to learn in archery and it takes time to learn the right way. Target panic is big in archery and rushing the shot (slapping the trigger) can open your groups up a lot. A good sight and tune can make a lot of difference. The whisker biscuits do wear out pretty fast and change arrow impact. Get around guys that truly know there stuff and I'm sure they can line you out pretty quick, lots of shops have guys that think they know but will just mess you up

[RadSav]

Well you need a RAD peep, of course!

I'd set your three pins for 30, 40 & 50 instead of 20, 30 & 40.  That will be good enough until you start getting the group size down.  I'd get serious about tuning/timing and getting the arrow flight perfect.  Then go from there.

Few archers ever buy there way to better accuracy unless it comes in the form of lessons.  But cool new stuff is fun!

[lamrith]

We need some more info on your setup and location.
Nearly every bow will shoot awesome with a hooter shooter. (Mechanical shooting device takes out human error)

We don't know what rest you have but some kind of drop away will shrink the group. I love my Ripcord.
If lessons aren't in the works then purchase a DVD of shooting techniques  and video yourself. There are a bunch of really good drills you can do at home shooting into a block each night. My favorite is getting setup for the shot at 5 yards aim, close eyes and shoot. Concentrate on how it feels to shoot well use all your senses. IMO those 2 purchases (if you don't already have a target to shoot into) will get you the most bang for the buck.

I have a whisker biscuit rest.

I cannot even imagine shooting with my eyes closed! Even at 5 yards, how many arrows do you lose? I will try this as soon as I get a chance. Where I live, I cannot shoot at my house. I usually shoot at my dad's house. When I get a chance to go there, I will certainly try this one out. I like the idea of trying to use more feeling and even hearing senses by closing my eyes. Forcing my other senses to join in.

Good tip.

How many times do you shoot like that? Once, a single group or several?


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1st off I have to commend you for knowing your limitations and choosing to be an ethical hunter.  There are plenty of people out there will pick up a bow for the 1st time the week before season, shoot it a few times @20yrds and then go hunting and take longer shots than they or their gear are ready for and wound animals.  Thank you for doing it right and being conscious of and staying within your limits.
 
I do not have the decades shooting some of these guys do, but this is my input after a few years shooting and now 3 years archery hunting.

I think his point is once you and bow are dialed in, to do that drill.  You work on getting that anchor, hold and release all smooth as silk and into muscle memory.  Not punching or slapping the trigger just a nice smooth release, let the shot surprise you and then hold bow on target till arrow lands.  5yrds is super short so you can likely do it at home once you are setup which makes it very nice.  There is no substitute for constant, GOOD practice.  Better to take 5 great shots go inside and come out and do 5 more an hour later and repeat that 3-4 times a night after work, than to go someplace and force thru 20shots in an hour like you would if you went to parents place or a range to shoot.  I am very blessed to have a big yard I can shoot in daily.

Before that excercise you may want to practice coming to full draw and settling behind the bow with your eyes closed though.  Get into your normal/natural shooting position, anchor, grip, nose on string etc..  Then open your eyes and see if the bow is in fact setup and dialed in for you.  When you open your eyes from your natural shooting position you should be right behind your peep, looking thru it to your sight. 
If I take my bow or a new bow in to be worked on (new strings, 1st setup, etc) I will do this a number of times as we set everything up.  Nobody else can set your peep/sight without your direct input and fitting.  The goal is to draw the bow set your anchor and be ready to shoot with your eyes closed, then you can open and have the peep/sight adjusted so that you are behind them and dialed in with your natural relaxed position.  I have seen a few people that just went with what the shop put the peep/sight at and fought consistency because they were not in a "natural" position shooting for them.

As to WB.  I hear people say they are less accurate, cost speed, etc.  Sure if you shoot 5k arrows a season I can see them wearing out on you often enough to be an issue, but new biscuits are cheap, take 30seconds to replace and you are good to go.  I had over 2500 arrrows thru my WB before I thought I saw some loss of consistency.  It was still shooting <2" @ 60yrds if I did my part, and the fall off could have been me as well.  FPS, I saw a few fps difference when I tested with my Carbon knight with WB versus a QAD fall away.  297/8fps QAD, 294/5fps WB, not enough to really matter.  The thing is a WB is foolproof, they work every singe time the same exact way, no moving parts to break, come loose etc.  Aside from gross abuse I have not seen a WB fail, I have seen 2 fall aways fail, on people I personally know.  WB are also faster reload for a second shot than many fall aways.  May not seem important but this year, second day my hunting partner had to reload with a bull 18yrds out and do it RIGHT NOW, thankfully he had a trophy taker fall away with full arrow cage and a very wide fall away fork so it worked just like a WB, drop arrow thru slot in cage and draw.  QAD is a great rig, I have it on my Elite and like it, even hunted with it this year.  But no way to reload as fast as that TT or a WB, heck just trying to draw with it the arrow is all over, have to nock and then hold arrow over forks while flip rest up by hand, then draw.  I love the QAD, but will likely replace it in the off season with a TT to try and get that "best of both worlds" setup if I decide to keep the Elite as my hunting rig.  It is all a balancing act, Fall away may be faster and a touch more accurate, but they are also much more expensive and can fail like any mechanical device.  If I was shooting only competition and every 1/16" was critical, fall away every time, but for a hunting bow were ultimate reliability and consistency and even loading speed matter in any an all situations and weather I prefer the WB personally.

Given your original statement on shot groupings I would not recommend a change to your rest unless it is one of those 3 brush style rests some bows came with like the octane hostage.  If you have that then change it out with either a WB or maybe one of the trophy taker with the wide fingers like the Xtreme SL or XFC for an economical upgrade.  If you have a true WB, maybe drop a new set of biscuit brushes in it that matches your arrow diameter.  But it is unlikely the rest type is causing your issues.

RAD makes awesome points as always too.  I would take that bow in and get it tuned in for you and make sure arrow flight is good.  Many people end up with too long a draw and it wreaks havoc on consistency.  Then there is all the tuning of the bow itself, arrow spine, centershot, etc, etc, etc.  You need to get it to a shop and get that arrow flying cleanly off the string or nothing else matters.  Once the bow is shooting clean then you take that out of the equation and can work on your fundamentals.

If you are in the Pierce County area I have had good luck with Mr Hubbard @ sportsmans in Puyallup, also with Jeris who was at Puyallup but is now Archery Manager at Fedway Sportmans.  For true pro shop you can't beat Rock Creek in Enumclaw, Denton is worth a trip if you are anywhere in Puget sound.  Just make sure to call and check they are open, he is a hunter too and closes for a while during the season.

[Timbuckto]

Look in to Iron Mind hunting.