Elevation - SW Washington Blacktail Population & Doe/Buck Ratio

[KILLA]

After many, many years of hunting on Weyerhaeuser land (Washougal Unit - 568 - lower elevation). I know that the tree farms hold a ton of deer and we have killed one (almost every year). The majority being spikes and forkys, with the occasional 3-4 point, and one 5x5. I think Weyerhaeuser's decision to charge a fee to access their land is respectable, and will ultimately keep the rift raft out--for the most part. As well as increase the quality of animals.
I have decided to venture out a bit and hunt some higher elevation, where I would normally hunt Elk--Siouxon & Lewis River.
We killed a big 1x2 in the Lewis River this weekend, however there seem to be a whole lot less deer in the higher elevations. Now obviously, feed (clear cuts), weather and other big game have a huge impact on deer population and it is clear that the deer numbers are much higher in the lower elevation (from my observations). But what I find interesting is that on any given day, given the same number of miles traveled (on foot), I will see three to four times the amount of deer in the lower elevations (say 15 per day), however 14/15 are does, with the 1 being a smaller buck >2pt (not mature). When I travel the same amount in higher elevations, I will only see 4 deer, however 1 of those deer is a mature buck. I find the same during the rut... Does in higher elevations almost ALWAYS have bucks behind them during the rut... but lower elevations, I will see does with fawns during the peak of the rut, with no buck in sight.

I am curious if others have the same observations?

[JDHasty]

I talked to a biologist who really was a really keen blacktail specialist and he said that in almost any blacktail population 40% bucks, 30% of those three point or better - so that means for ~ every nine deer in the woods you should expect to find ~ one three point or better buck. 

That assumes you do see get to see them, big bucks don't get to be big bucks by standing around with a sign in their hand saying shoot me.  They hide in the shadows and watch you.  Perhaps the difference is how much cover there is to hide in.

[deerhunter_98520]

  the mature bucks are nocturnal is why you don't see them....and when they are in the open they are not there for very long...that's why the majority of big mature blacktails are killed at the end of Oct or ext. Buck when the rut is on

[KILLA]

I talked to a biologist who really was a really keen blacktail specialist and he said that in almost any blacktail population 40% bucks, 30% of those three point or better - so that means for ~ every nine deer in the woods you should expect to find ~ one three point or better buck. 

That assumes you do see get to see them, big bucks don't get to be big bucks by standing around with a sign in their hand saying shoot me.  They hide in the shadows and watch you.  Perhaps the difference is how much cover there is to hide in.

Is that Eric Holman? They sure are nocturnal! The 1x2 was in his bed! I am just wondering if more deer isn't actually better... meaning the doe/buck ratio seems way out of line in the lower elevations (more deer), where the buck/doe ratio in higher elevations seems far better, but less deer... certainly could be visibility due to cover. Although the land tells a story... not nearly as much sign. My cams also show a HUGE difference between the two.

In either case, thank you for your input!!

[JDHasty]

I talked to a biologist who really was a really keen blacktail specialist and he said that in almost any blacktail population 40% bucks, 30% of those three point or better - so that means for ~ every nine deer in the woods you should expect to find ~ one three point or better buck. 

That assumes you do see get to see them, big bucks don't get to be big bucks by standing around with a sign in their hand saying shoot me.  They hide in the shadows and watch you.  Perhaps the difference is how much cover there is to hide in.

Is that Eric Holman? They sure are nocturnal! The 1x2 was in his bed! I am just wondering if more deer isn't actually better... meaning the doe/buck ratio seems way out of line in the lower elevations (more deer), where the buck/doe ratio in higher elevations seems far better, but less deer... certainly could be visibility due to cover. Although the land tells a story... not nearly as much sign. My cams also show a HUGE difference between the two.

In either case, thank you for your input!!

I wish I could remember the guy's name.  I just got to talking to a guy who told me he was a game biologist and he was OK with me asking him all kinds of questions. 

[skagitsteel]

After many, many years of hunting on Weyerhaeuser land (Washougal Unit - 568 - lower elevation). I know that the tree farms hold a ton of deer and we have killed one (almost every year). The majority being spikes and forkys, with the occasional 3-4 point, and one 5x5. I think Weyerhaeuser's decision to charge a fee to access their land is respectable, and will ultimately keep the rift raft out--for the most part. As well as increase the quality of animals.
I have decided to venture out a bit and hunt some higher elevation, where I would normally hunt Elk--Siouxon & Lewis River.
We killed a big 1x2 in the Lewis River this weekend, however there seem to be a whole lot less deer in the higher elevations. Now obviously, feed (clear cuts), weather and other big game have a huge impact on deer population and it is clear that the deer numbers are much higher in the lower elevation (from my observations). But what I find interesting is that on any given day, given the same number of miles traveled (on foot), I will see three to four times the amount of deer in the lower elevations (say 15 per day), however 14/15 are does, with the 1 being a smaller buck >2pt (not mature). When I travel the same amount in higher elevations, I will only see 4 deer, however 1 of those deer is a mature buck. I find the same during the rut... Does in higher elevations almost ALWAYS have bucks behind them during the rut... but lower elevations, I will see does with fawns during the peak of the rut, with no buck in sight.

I am curious if others have the same observations?

I hunt blacktail almost exclusively in the alpine, there are far fewer deer than in the lowlands, but the % of mature bucks to the overall deer population is much higher typically.  I have hung a lot of trailcams up high and often find that the bucks outnumber the does in some areas.  for example one mountain might have three does and five bucks, with three of those bucks being mature ones.  That being said there is a lot of country for those deer to be in and almost certainly a river drainage below with higher % of does that the bucks would drop down to breed. 

[fishnfur]

Good and probably accurate observations.  JD - I have problems swallowing the 40% bucks number.  Perhaps if you include fawns and yearlings, but even then the number seems high.  I believe that is probably correct on the islands and at upper elevations, but not where hunting pressure is high.

Certainly on the Weyco tree farms, the percentage of does must way outnumber the bucks due to the heavy annual toll that hunting takes on the populations.  Hundreds of bucks are harvested in those areas each year.  To maintain a 40% buck to doe ratio, the birth rate would likely have be above 60% bucks, which is not the case (to my knowledge).  I know that WDFW tries to maintain a 15/100 bull/cow ratio for elk.  I thought they used the same numbers for BT, though I'm not positive on that one.  That is the reason why they allow the harvest of does in several of those units during archery and ML seasons - the ratios are way out of wack, and the does keep making more fawns, half of which wouldn't normally be killed by hunters.

Edit:  The numbers from the Game Management Plan states that they manage Regions 5 and 6 as liberal (15 - 19 bucks/100 does) and Region 4 as liberal/moderate.  The table didn't copy with the data.

Table 2. Hunting intensity and related buck:doe ratios.
Level of Hunting Pressure Post-hunt Buck Ratios

Liberal 15 to 19 bucks:100 does
Moderate 20 to 24 bucks:100 does
Conservative 25+ bucks:100 does

SkagitSteel makes a good point about the higher number of bucks than does at alpine levels, and seems to indicate that knowing the habits of BT bucks, the bucks likely migrate to lower elevations during the rut, effectively equaling out the overall ratios at that time and elevation.

[JDHasty]

Good and probably accurate observations.  JD - I have problems swallowing the 40% bucks number.  Perhaps if you include fawns and yearlings, but even then the number seems high.  I believe that is probably correct on the islands and at upper elevations, but not where hunting pressure is high.

Certainly on the Weyco tree farms, the percentage of does must way outnumber the bucks due to the heavy annual toll that hunting takes on the populations.  Hundreds of bucks are harvested in those areas each year.  To maintain a 40% buck to doe ratio, the birth rate would likely have be above 60% bucks, which is not the case (to my knowledge).  I know that WDFW tries to maintain a 15/100 bull/cow ratio for elk.  I thought they used the same numbers for BT, though I'm not positive on that one.  That is the reason why they allow the harvest of does in several of those units during archery and ML seasons - the ratios are way out of wack, and the does keep making more fawns, half of which wouldn't normally be killed by hunters.

Edit:  The numbers from the Game Management Plan states that they manage Regions 5 and 6 as liberal (15 - 19 bucks/100 does) and Region 4 as liberal/moderate.  The table didn't copy with the data.

Table 2. Hunting intensity and related buck:doe ratios.
Level of Hunting Pressure Post-hunt Buck Ratios

Liberal 15 to 19 bucks:100 does
Moderate 20 to 24 bucks:100 does
Conservative 25+ bucks:100 does

SkagitSteel makes a good point about the higher number of bucks than does at alpine levels, and seems to indicate that knowing the habits of BT bucks, the bucks likely migrate to lower elevations during the rut, effectively equaling out the overall ratios at that time and elevation.

I think almost all, or all, islands are either sex.  Almost all hunters shoot the first deer they see and so the buck/doe ratio on islands is probably ~ 50/50.

[KILLA]

I agree that the deer in higher elevations, specifically the bucks, travel much longer distances than those of lower elevation. It sounds like your observations align fairly closely with mine! It guess it also makes me wonder how much inbreeding goes on in the lower elevations! Thank you for all of your input!

[JDHasty]

I agree that the deer in higher elevations, specifically the bucks, travel much longer distances than those of lower elevation. It sounds like your observations align fairly closely with mine! It guess it also makes me wonder how much inbreeding goes on in the lower elevations! Thank you for all of your input!

I wonder that myself.  But I do see the same buck in two locations that are over a apart on the same day and the same biologist told me that 240 deer per section would not be unheard of in some of the areas we were discussing. 

[JDHasty]

But my observation isn't the norm: 

http://missoulian.com/lifestyles/recreation/regional/washington-state-deer-study-reveals-most-blacktails-have-small-home/article_00f08a70-2f5b-11e2-bd1d-0019bb2963f4.html

[fishnfur]

That's an interesting article in that the study shows only a 24% one-year survival of fawns.  Way lower than what you would expect.   

[TikkaT3-270Shortmag]

What is considered a mature buck? 3pt or better?

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[JDHasty]

What is considered a mature buck? 3pt or better?

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For me it is a 5 1/2 year old buck.  @ 2 1/2 they have a scraggly two point or long spikes, at 3 1/2 they have some height and width, at 4 1/2 they are pretty well high and wide but lack mass.  So I arbitrarily go with 5 1/2 based on my observations and remembering bucks that get through another year.   

[fishnfur]

"Mature" is in the eye of the beholder, if you ask me.  Probably 4.5 is a fully mature deer in most areas.  Many sources suggest that bucks rarely live beyond 5.5 years, though we know that many surely do.  Antler size and mass is not always a good indicator of age.  There were studies in the past that showed if they fed a male fawn a balanced nutritious diet, he could achieve a four point rack at 1.5 years.  If a BT buck has a perfect diet, it will (generally) develop antlers somewhere between two and four points per side, excluding eyeguards, based solely on its genetics.  Fewer than that, or with less mass/length if the diet is lacking.   

Body size and shape seem to be the best indicator of age in a live deer.  That is normally how the WT hunters gauge the age of deer, but even that can vary widely based on the available forage for the individual buck.   
For this discussion, I'm not sure what mature means, big bodied or big antlered; probably the latter.

Here's a chart of statistics from harvested BT bucks that demonstrates how increasing age does not necessarily equate to better antlers.