Any Pudelpointer owners?

[addicted2hunting]

All Pp's are high drive and amazing just like all labs including show dogs are high drive... You're right. Lol.

No not ALL PPs are high drive. Just as not all labs are lazy. You just gotta know the kennels you are buying from. I'll show you what drive in a PP is like...

[Happy Gilmore]

Small number of dogs hunting which handle at 300 yards let alone 30.

[addicted2hunting]

Well mine does 300 yds in the marsh on cripples without me rooting a whistle and he doesn't even have to see me. All I say is heel... aim him and say back and he disappears. About 75% of the time he delivers the cripple to hand after about 30 mins of tearing the cattails up like a bulldozer...

[addicted2hunting]

That's a low drive PP though!

[Colin]

I'm gonna have to come train with you guys as I don't know much about upland training and don't get to see those kinds of dogs work. Lemme know when you guys have a test. I'd be interested in watching!

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Absolutely colin. Our first test is may 19th to 21st. We will train a bunch this year and you can come out anytime.

Lemme know where it's at.

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[Colin]

We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.


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Yes that's where the training differences come in not the breed itself. Could I train my PP to handle 300yd blinds under complete control like a lab? Yes he is totally capable but once you go that way you can't go back. After I'm done testing Navhda Iwith cedar he will be trained like a lab to handle long blinds thus making him equal to a lab waterfowl hunting. My dog will do a 300 yd blind now but it won't be to test standards but if you shoot a winged cripple out at skagit headquarters and it goes 300yds into the cattail tidal marsh my dog I say back and he wil search an entire 300yd radius until he finds that duck and I can sit and drink coffee until he comes back and delivers to hand. That whole time I have no sight of him. Most labs guys would leave that bird.

I mean a 300 yard duck search is pretty impressive. I'm sure that skill and his natural abiltu have been carfully nurtured and trained to bring that out of him. I totally respect that type of skill in a dog and a trainer.

But in that hunting scenario I wouldn't leave that bird, cause I don't shoot them unless they are decoying and will fall nearby, when I don't have the means to retrieve that bird. In a field we take lots of shots on the edge when birds are wary, resulting in some cripples that sail 400 - 500 yards. In that situation I want my dog to no off all the birds down in the deekes, flailing and crippled or dead, and go after that cripple or stunned bird that went down just in line with the telephone pole on the other half of a 100 acre field. A few minutes and I a have another bird in the bag and we are blinding back up working birds again.

I honestly don't know which type of blind is better. I think you're right about the "once you go that way you can't go back". At this point I don't think I could train my lab to put on a duck search like that, at least not with the same style, without seriously hurting his other blinds. I don't know if a dog that's been carfully trained to do duck searches to that level can be trained to run a traditional blind at the same level as a lab. Not saying you cant do it. Its just counter to what the dogs already been taught. I think this why most don't train for the upland, last series of the Grand till the day before. It messes with the dogs regular blinds too much. It will be interesting to see how Cedar does with regular blinds as I've not seen a trained upland dog be taught this.

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[addicted2hunting]

Exactly. Where it suffers doing a duck search and not running a traditional blind is fields. It can get frustrating when you have birds coming in and you send the dog to retrieve a bird he didn't see and it takes some time possibly flaring birds. The sailing cripples are usually from guys in the hunting party shooting the straggler flying away after we dumped some in the dekes. You are spot on with the fact it takes a lot of confidence building and training to get a good duck search like that. It isn't my optimal choice out duck hunting as most his retrieving scenarios are what you describe like a typical waterfowler. That's why I want to teach him to do blinds like a lab after navhda is done and hopefully he will take to it after duck searching for so long. You hit the nail on the head though with it being apples to oranges cause you can't really compare a duck search to a retriever blind, they encourage completely different traits than each other.

[Happy Gilmore]

Well mine does 300 yds in the marsh on cripples without me rooting a whistle and he doesn't even have to see me. All I say is heel... aim him and say back and he disappears. About 75% of the time he delivers the cripple to hand after about 30 mins of tearing the cattails up like a bulldozer...

Trailing a wounded bird and a blind has no relation. Trailing is fun. Blind running is 100% control. I've trained with a top navhda dog and he doesn't run blinds in any way similar to a standard retriever protocol.

[constructeur]

We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.


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All respect here Colin. I'm not sure how you hunt, but i'm often in tidal water at a river or slough mouth, and if we do shoot a bird poorly and it falls at 150+ yards, not only can I generally not see that, I'm not going to send a dog into something I'm not sure of, on the swim of a lifetime across a multitude of currents. We'd just fire up the boat and go get em' at that point. So it really comes down to short 50-100 yard retrieves, if that, and the versatiles handle those just fine. No top level triple dipply blind across a cigar pond with extra gravy on the side type retrieves necessary.

My comments about out retrieving, I mean most of the versatiles, especially the local PP's, will out 'leg' a lab and hang paw for paw on water marks.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong; if I'm proved so this Summer, I'll be the first to say from there on out that the local versatiles are retrieving nearly as well as labs, or whatever we find out.

[Happy Gilmore]

My duck hunting was on the Skagit, wallula, Hanford, snake, cresent bar and upper Columbia. 300 yard blind isnt uncommon and handling the dog the entire way to the bird and having control and handling on the return is equally important to get the dog on and off the correct islands and avoid some bad banks. Most dogs can't and wont handle through an entire retrieve. It's just part of retriever basics when training a high level duck dog of any breed.

[Bluemoon]

Just to throw more into this conversation for the original OP of this thread, when searching for  PP's there is also two registries for this breed.  The group of breeders between Idaho and Oregon breed outstanding bird dogs there is no denying that.  They breed and register and test through NAVHDA.   There is also the Pudlepointer Club of North America that follow a more strict German testing and breeding program more like the Deutsch-Drahthaar.  Where the dog is also tested on on fur.  (Which is something to consider if you have a family cat.)
Also to breed according to the P.C. of N.A. your dog also has to pass a VJP & BIT test (Breed Improvement Test) before the age of 5 or you are not allowed to let that dog into the gene pool.
I personally have been fortunate to train and hunt PP's from both registries and you will not go wrong with either. As far as "my PP will out mark, retrieve or what ever else your Lab"  all I can say is I look forward to the day when we could somehow have a Hunt WA BRING IT ON DAY.  Because there are an amazing amount of outstanding dogs and breeds owned by some great people on here..

[Happy Gilmore]

Oh common Richard... You wouldn't even take on my old fat brood bitch xhesapeake on a timed upland bird finding bet 

[RC3]

As an owner of Wirehairs and Shothairs currently, but having had labs in the past I can agree with Happy.  I will always have a versatile now but for the average beginner a lab is probably more likely to be a better fit.  I can understand what he was trying to say.

[Colin]

We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.


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All respect here Colin. I'm not sure how you hunt, but i'm often in tidal water at a river or slough mouth, and if we do shoot a bird poorly and it falls at 150+ yards, not only can I generally not see that, I'm not going to send a dog into something I'm not sure of, on the swim of a lifetime across a multitude of currents. We'd just fire up the boat and go get em' at that point. So it really comes down to short 50-100 yard retrieves, if that, and the versatiles handle those just fine. No top level triple dipply blind across a cigar pond with extra gravy on the side type retrieves necessary.

My comments about out retrieving, I mean most of the versatiles, especially the local PP's, will out 'leg' a lab and hang paw for paw on water marks.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong; if I'm proved so this Summer, I'll be the first to say from there on out that the local versatiles are retrieving nearly as well as labs, or whatever we find out.

Honestly I hunt fields 95% of the time. So I always see the falls and I usually send my dog on the long blind first. I only got my floaters wet twice this past season and both times there was not tall cover surrounding so I just don't encounter those situations.

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[addicted2hunting]

Well mine does 300 yds in the marsh on cripples without me rooting a whistle and he doesn't even have to see me. All I say is heel... aim him and say back and he disappears. About 75% of the time he delivers the cripple to hand after about 30 mins of tearing the cattails up like a bulldozer...

Trailing a wounded bird and a blind has no relation. Trailing is fun. Blind running is 100% control. I've trained with a top navhda dog and he doesn't run blinds in any way similar to a standard retriever protocol.

Well typically that bird lands about 150yds from you so there is no scent on the cattails for them to trail. And you can't see a dog in cattails except the tops of the brush moving. Standard protocol for blinds is impossible in a heavy cattail environment.