Idaho F&G Proposal-Outlaw Trail Cameras

[singleshot12]

Here we go.

I assume that most people agree that using a radio to talk another hunter into an animal for a kill is unethical.
For you that do not agree, that's your perogative (sp?).
I happen to think that it is highly unethical (My opinion) and do not practice this iilegal (I believe) methodology.
This practice, which I have witnessed is not a rare occurance, however it requires two people, both poachers.

Now, jump ahead to the guy who has a few camaras with the phone link and you have the same situation with only one participant.
A guy can monitor a few sites and sneak into the area with full knowledge of where the game is and the reaction of that game to any disturbance.
Any arguement that this is not practical in my opinion is ridiculous.
I have hunted for 45 years and have stalked game succesfully numerous times.

This methodology allows aperson to monitor numerous sites at daylight and to then pick the area he will hunt that morning with secure knowledge of game in the immediate area.  To think that someone is/will not take advantage of this is really putting your head in the sand.

Does everyone do this? I am sure not, but I am convinced that this is wrong.
I wil further state that using a drone to spot game with a camara and then immediately hunt that animal is also unethical.
I am sure that Bearpaw and most hunters are using this technology in a responsibe manner.
But laws are not always written for the righteous.
They are written to provide protection from those individuals who are irresponsible.

I say pull ALL the camaras at the beginning of the season.
As I side note, I just bought my first (2) camaras this winter which I have used with limited success.
They are used ones with a card that I can download to my PC.

This is good conversation.

Later,
Rob.
[/quote/]

Well stated and solid point Rob

[lord grizzly]

DB,

that's the only issue I've brought forward here. and I will say I don't think you are completely wrong on its affect on game populations or that actions frequency of occurrence, now. in the coming future I believe the later increases and as boneaddict mentioned there re to many variables to definitively say one way or another with out intensive study what population/harvest ramifications would be. the unethical nature of the act Machias described I believe is with out question and unfortunately for the rest of us laws and regulations need to be written to the lowest common denominator.

again, I've been very open with the fact that I take this stance from a philosophical view point. there is precious little in this world outside my wife and children that means more to me than hunting and being as in tune with nature as I am when I'm in these mountains. and thus I have very passionate view points, one of them being the maintain of fair chase between game and hunter. I realize you all want to paint me as wanting to take from a user group out of some sort of jealousy or fear there taking from me. trust me, you guys wont see me in the mountains, very few do where I'm at. no this stems from the incredible amount of respect I have for the game I pursue and the belief that it deserves it from all aspects.

sitting in your truck waiting for an alert to go kill a bull I find degrading. as ive presented here with the examples of B&C and Montana F&G im not the only one

[DBHAWTHORNE]

I guess the question should be - - where do we draw the line on electronic technology associated with hunting big game? You would think cell trail cams would cross that line

For me they don't cross the line because I think they will really not create the kind of advantage that some seem to believe.... but I can understand the argument against them...I just think the concerns aren't based in the same reality that I live in where animals don't wait around for me to show up and even if they do I'm not likely to stalk up on them successfully (not that I would ever use them in that capacity in the first place... I'd even be in favor of some kind of delay in the send/receipt of the photo..... I wouldn't desire immediate pictures.....but getting pictures without having to disturb the area and stress the animals is a good thing)..... I'll probably never use them in the Northwest....However, I'm strongly opposed to removing trail cam use during the season (like Montana does) as has been proposed....and even though I probably won't use them in the NW I'm not in favor of restricting them for those who do enjoy their use.... If I thought it gave some kind of real advantage that resulted in an unfair chase then I would oppose them.

Ok roger that! DB. I'm not really opposed to trail cam usage in season either. But in my mind I picture "that guy" abusing that usage. With him sitting above a semi open draw in eastern Washington. Down below the draw he has several bait stations set up couple hundred yards apart with cell cams at each one. This "guy" or "gal" for that matter is sitting on their ATV waiting for their cell phone to text an image of that trophy buck so they can race like a bat outa hell to the above location and snipe the animal 500 yards or so away below them.
It's the folks that abuse a privilege like baiting for example that ruin it for everyone and laws need to be adjusted for it.

I do believe people can abuse things..but I don't agree we need to make laws for all potential abuses unless it happens on such scale that it impacts the resource or the experience of others (and we have to be careful when we use the measure of impacting the experience of others because it can be so subjective... I think resource impact is more measurable).

[JimmyHoffa]

I guess the question should be - - where do we draw the line on electronic technology associated with hunting big game? You would think cell trail cams would cross that line

For me they don't cross the line because I think they will really not create the kind of advantage that some seem to believe.... but I can understand the argument against them...I just think the concerns aren't based in the same reality that I live in where animals don't wait around for me to show up and even if they do I'm not likely to stalk up on them successfully (not that I would ever use them in that capacity in the first place... I'd even be in favor of some kind of delay in the send/receipt of the photo..... I wouldn't desire immediate pictures.....but getting pictures without having to disturb the area and stress the animals is a good thing)..... I'll probably never use them in the Northwest....However, I'm strongly opposed to removing trail cam use during the season (like Montana does) as has been proposed....and even though I probably won't use them in the NW I'm not in favor of restricting them for those who do enjoy their use.... If I thought it gave some kind of real advantage that resulted in an unfair chase then I would oppose them.

Ok roger that! DB. I'm not really opposed to trail cam usage in season either. But in my mind I picture "that guy" abusing that usage. With him sitting above a semi open draw in eastern Washington. Down below the draw he has several bait stations set up couple hundred yards apart with cell cams at each one. This "guy" or "gal" for that matter is sitting on their ATV waiting for their cell phone to text an image of that trophy buck so they can race like a bat outa hell to the above location and snipe the animal 500 yards or so away below them.
It's the folks that abuse a privilege like baiting for example that ruin it for everyone and laws need to be adjusted for it.

And that guy in that scenario has a decent likelihood of doing that for the purpose of getting into the record books of an above mentioned record keeping organization that defines 'fair chase'. (IMO)
Maybe just have the record clubs determine a stricter 'fair chase' stance that doesn't bleed over so much in opportunity/harvest of the game agencies?

[lord grizzly]

here's part of the questionnaire you need to answer when submitting a trophy to B&C, underlined an interesting part. im not the only one holding these opinions, you guys find this group to be against you has a hunter?


For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Club’s® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible:

 I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the purpose of pursuit and shooting;
 II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
 III. Use of electronic communication devices to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities, thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter;
 IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape‑proof fenced enclosures;
 V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
 VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
 VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or artificial medium;
 VIII. On another hunter’s license;
 IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations or tribal lands;

I think you are missing a nuance in their rules.  A hunter on the mountain with a 2 way radio kills a big B&C Bull.  Is the bull allowed into the record books?  Yes, unless the hunter used the 2 way radio to harvest this bull.  He's not banned from having a 2 way radio, or a cell phone, he's just not allowed to use it to kill the bull.  If I go out tonight and kill a B&C bear on a site I have my wireless trail camera on, I'm still allowed to enter it in the books, unless I used that trail camera to kill that bear.  If I plan on going out tonight and I sit there from 5 pm until 9 pm and kill a bear on that site, it is still eligible for the book.  Now if I was sitting in my truck in between my three bait sites, waiting for the bear to show up at whichever site popped up on my cell phone, then that would be unethical and would not be eligible for the book. I can ride a ATV into my hunting area and kill a book animal and it is legal in the eyes of B&C, but once I start to herd animals or chase them down, then it's no longer eligible.  We don't ban ATVs for hunting because someone might use them illegally.....

we keep saying the same thing and you keep telling me how wrong I am.

Then what are you arguing about?  There is a whole hosts of items we all use in the field all the time that can be abused, we both agree they shouldn't be abused, yet we are not talking about and supporting banning these other items!!

I keep wondering the same thing about you

[DBHAWTHORNE]

DB,

that's the only issue I've brought forward here. and I will say I don't think you are completely wrong on its affect on game populations or that actions frequency of occurrence, now. in the coming future I believe the later increases and as boneaddict mentioned there re to many variables to definitively say one way or another with out intensive study say what population/harvest ramifications would be. the unethical nature of the act Machias described I believe is with out question and unfortunately for the rest of us laws and regulations need to be written to the lowest common denominator.

again, I've been very open with the fact that I take this stance from a philosophical view point. there is precious little in this world outside my wife and children that means more to me than hunting and being as in tune with nature as I am when I'm in these mountains. and thus I have very passionate view points, one of them being the maintain of fair chase between game and hunter. I realize you all want to paint me as wanting to take from a user group out of some sort of jealousy or fear there taking from me. trust me, you guys wont see me in the mountains, very few do where I'm at. no this stems from the incredible amount of respect I have for the game I pursue and the belief that it deserves it from all aspects.

sitting in your truck waiting for an alert to go kill a bull I find degrading. as ive presented here with the examples of B&C and Montana F&G im not the only one

I think we can all agree that the idea of someone waiting for a pic to run out and kill the animal at/near that time is nauseating...particularly if they are successful.

[Machias]

here's part of the questionnaire you need to answer when submitting a trophy to B&C, underlined an interesting part. im not the only one holding these opinions, you guys find this group to be against you has a hunter?


For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Club’s® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible:

 I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the purpose of pursuit and shooting;
 II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
 III. Use of electronic communication devices to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities, thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter;
 IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape‑proof fenced enclosures;
 V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
 VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
 VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or artificial medium;
 VIII. On another hunter’s license;
 IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations or tribal lands;

I think you are missing a nuance in their rules.  A hunter on the mountain with a 2 way radio kills a big B&C Bull.  Is the bull allowed into the record books?  Yes, unless the hunter used the 2 way radio to harvest this bull.  He's not banned from having a 2 way radio, or a cell phone, he's just not allowed to use it to kill the bull.  If I go out tonight and kill a B&C bear on a site I have my wireless trail camera on, I'm still allowed to enter it in the books, unless I used that trail camera to kill that bear.  If I plan on going out tonight and I sit there from 5 pm until 9 pm and kill a bear on that site, it is still eligible for the book.  Now if I was sitting in my truck in between my three bait sites, waiting for the bear to show up at whichever site popped up on my cell phone, then that would be unethical and would not be eligible for the book. I can ride a ATV into my hunting area and kill a book animal and it is legal in the eyes of B&C, but once I start to herd animals or chase them down, then it's no longer eligible.  We don't ban ATVs for hunting because someone might use them illegally.....

we keep saying the same thing and you keep telling me how wrong I am.

Then what are you arguing about?  There is a whole hosts of items we all use in the field all the time that can be abused, we both agree they shouldn't be abused, yet we are not talking about and supporting banning these other items!!

I keep wondering the same thing about you

 

[singleshot12]

I guess the question should be - - where do we draw the line on electronic technology associated with hunting big game? You would think cell trail cams would cross that line

For me they don't cross the line because I think they will really not create the kind of advantage that some seem to believe.... but I can understand the argument against them...I just think the concerns aren't based in the same reality that I live in where animals don't wait around for me to show up and even if they do I'm not likely to stalk up on them successfully (not that I would ever use them in that capacity in the first place... I'd even be in favor of some kind of delay in the send/receipt of the photo..... I wouldn't desire immediate pictures.....but getting pictures without having to disturb the area and stress the animals is a good thing)..... I'll probably never use them in the Northwest....However, I'm strongly opposed to removing trail cam use during the season (like Montana does) as has been proposed....and even though I probably won't use them in the NW I'm not in favor of restricting them for those who do enjoy their use.... If I thought it gave some kind of real advantage that resulted in an unfair chase then I would oppose them.

Ok roger that! DB. I'm not really opposed to trail cam usage in season either. But in my mind I picture "that guy" abusing that usage. With him sitting above a semi open draw in eastern Washington. Down below the draw he has several bait stations set up couple hundred yards apart with cell cams at each one. This "guy" or "gal" for that matter is sitting on their ATV waiting for their cell phone to text an image of that trophy buck so they can race like a bat outa hell to the above location and snipe the animal 500 yards or so away below them.
It's the folks that abuse a privilege like baiting for example that ruin it for everyone and laws need to be adjusted for it.

And that guy in that scenario has a decent likelihood of doing that for the purpose of getting into the record books of an above mentioned record keeping organization that defines 'fair chase'. (IMO)
Maybe just have the record clubs determine a stricter 'fair chase' stance that doesn't bleed over so much in opportunity/harvest of the game agencies?

I guess we do live in a very competitive world where "that trophy" means more that anything else

[lord grizzly]

Machias, I think the only thing you and I really don't see eye to eye on when its all said and done would be time frame. you would like to wait and see I wouldn't. I may be to early on the issue, you may be to late on the issue. likely the right time is somewhere in-between but with track records of game departments and the speed of tech you just see too often them being to late so I take the stance I take.

[Machias]

 

[baldopepper]

I guess you could take the point of view that the major justification for hunting is that it is a tool game managers use to find the balance between game animals and the environment in which they live.  Most of what we are allowed to do (at least on paper) is predicated on that basis.  Therefore, you could take the stance that why should it matter what method we use to reach the quota that game managers want to see harvested in a certain area.  We hunters set the artificial parameters of what is the fairest way of helping game managers reach their goals. Obviously there is a very wide area of disagreement amongst hunters on those parameters.  As stated earlier, I'm not sure where that line is nor how to enforce once it's drawn.  I can only hunt according to my own rules (of course within the legally set rules) and let others let their own conscience be their guide. Personally I would never use the game cameras in question and would, therefore, not have any problem if they were banned.

[bearpaw]

It's certainly not the end of the world if cams are outlawed, the reason I stand against it is for the reasons I have stated. In the end there will be hunters wondering why other hunters took away their trail cams just like I am still wondering why other hunters voted against me being able to hunt hounds, bait, trap, and hunt coyotes with dogs in WA. It saddens me every time I see hunters lose the ability to do something they enjoy because i've been that guy too many times. Yes, Montana outlawed trail cams, it really don't affect me or my Montana business but I know guys who wished they could still use their trail cams in Montana!

[hunter399]

This really boils down to ethics,fair chase,  Sportsmanship,
Everybody has a different opinions on what these should be.
In the end it will be fish and game in all states to draw a line in the sand of what these will be .Protect wildlife from over harvest,keep hunting a fair chase sport .And yes they will make this decision with the public eye of hunters and non Hunter alike.Idaho and montana both allow 22 centerfire for deer and they wanna take away cell trail cams or trail cams durring open season tells me there is something wrong with cell trail cams and will be abused .Everybody on here is all about ethics,too many deer running off,Sportsmanship,when you bring up 22 centerfire for deer,but trail cams that tell you where deer at anytime ripe for the picking ,a lot of people are for it ,saying it's not gonna effect harvest number ,population,blah,blah,ect.Its crazy how people are so ethic do gooder when it's something they want ,There is something wrong with hunters in washington ,I'm not sure what to call it , but it's not right .

[hunter399]

It's certainly not the end of the world if cams are outlawed, the reason I stand against it is for the reasons I have stated. In the end there will be hunters wondering why other hunters took away their trail cams just like I am still wondering why other hunters voted against me being able to hunt hounds, bait, trap, and hunt coyotes with dogs in WA. It saddens me every time I see hunters lose the ability to do something they enjoy because i've been that guy too many times. Yes, Montana outlawed trail cams, it really don't affect me or my Montana business but I know guys who wished they could still use their trail cams in Montana!

Yes keep going on about bear baiting and hound hunting I wish we could also.Thank the people on the coast,and the way people view it in the public eye of non hunters.I know eastern Washington didn't want to ban it.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

It's certainly not the end of the world if cams are outlawed, the reason I stand against it is for the reasons I have stated. In the end there will be hunters wondering why other hunters took away their trail cams just like I am still wondering why other hunters voted against me being able to hunt hounds, bait, trap, and hunt coyotes with dogs in WA. It saddens me every time I see hunters lose the ability to do something they enjoy because i've been that guy too many times. Yes, Montana outlawed trail cams, it really don't affect me or my Montana business but I know guys who wished they could still use their trail cams in Montana!

Thanks BP!

As a diehard WA public land whitetail bowhunter who hunts hours away from home losing trail cams in season as some has suggested would seriously impact my ability to do what I do. I could certainly overcome it but I wouldn't be spending much time hunting away from home..before I started using trail cams in 2009 I spent much more of my time hunting closer to home because that's where I found bucks I wanted to hunt. I will say losing trail cameras in season would seriously take away from something I truly enjoy. It would take away from my experience. I love having thousands of trail cam photos of bucks throughout the years for several seasons. The hunted the buck in my avatar for 3 years and have all sorts of documentation on that buck.

When I'm living stateside I easily drop $8-$10K per year in those rural communities because I spend so much time there throughout the year. That wouldn't happen with a trail cam ban. I have to think there are other hunters in the same boat. All these little restrictions are like death by a thousand cuts to some of these communities.... I think something like restriction on baiting (a topic we have discussed many times in the past) would have the same sort of impact.