Idaho F&G Proposal-Outlaw Trail Cameras

[lord grizzly]

here's part of the questionnaire you need to answer when submitting a trophy to B&C, underlined an interesting part. im not the only one holding these opinions, you guys find this group to be against you has a hunter?


For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Club’s® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible:

 I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the purpose of pursuit and shooting;
 II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
 III. Use of electronic communication devices to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities, thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter;
 IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape‑proof fenced enclosures;
 V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
 VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
 VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or artificial medium;
 VIII. On another hunter’s license;
 IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations or tribal lands;

[Bob33]

At what point do we outlaw fish finders, using electronics to put the bait in the face of the fish! Rangefinders that tell us how far the animal is so we know exactly how to compensate? Rifles that used to shoot accurate to 300 yards and now up to a mile! This list goes on but I think the point has been made many times already, all hunters are already utilizing equipment that makes them far more efficient than a camera that sends pictures to a cell phone. It's not that I am opposed to any of those items, I'm merely using them as an example of the hypocrisy of this topic.

I think the answer is possibly "never", but I don't think we should shy away from having discussions on them. There are options between banning everything, and restricting nothing.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

here's part of the questionnaire you need to answer when submitting a trophy to B&C, underlined an interesting part. im not the only one holding these opinions, you guys find this group to be against you has a hunter?


For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Club’s® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible:

 I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the purpose of pursuit and shooting;
 II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
 III. Use of electronic communication devices to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities, thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter;
 IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape‑proof fenced enclosures;
 V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
 VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
 VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or artificial medium;
 VIII. On another hunter’s license;
 IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations or tribal lands;

Keep in mind B&C is a private record keeping organization and only get to define fair chase as it relates the records entered into that book. To respect the integrity of the record book. I'd say that restriction is understandable in the off chance that someone did manage to use the cameras in a capacity that wasn't fair chase. That being said... people use legal weapons all the time to poach game in ways that aren't fair chase. However, we don't ban them just because those rare exceptions where people lack ethics.

[lord grizzly]

I know exactly who B&C are as an organization. and they are highly recognized as the leaders in hunting and fair chase. to elude at dismissing there stance on issues because there "a private record keeping origination " is once again a weak point to stand on. they have shaped hunting and conservation in this country from a time when there was no regulation and real threat of loosing resources was apparent.

I under stand my opinion meaning nothing, im nobody. but you may want to at least entertain where an organization like B&C is coming form and why. if you really care about the topic that is.

[baldopepper]

At what point do we outlaw fish finders, using electronics to put the bait in the face of the fish! Rangefinders that tell us how far the animal is so we know exactly how to compensate? Rifles that used to shoot accurate to 300 yards and now up to a mile! This list goes on but I think the point has been made many times already, all hunters are already utilizing equipment that makes them far more efficient than a camera that sends pictures to a cell phone. It's not that I am opposed to any of those items, I'm merely using them as an example of the hypocrisy of this topic.

Seems to me its coming to the "where do you draw the line" situation.  Went halibut fishing on a newer boat with all the latest in electronics and electric reels and honestly felt like it was almost cheating with electronics doing all the brain work and me just pulling up the fish.  Just a matter of time until someone comes up with a programmable gun that only requires you to aim in the general direction of your target and it does all the rest. Like Bearpaw, I'm not really opposed to these advances, just can't help but wonder where we draw the line. Guess it's up to the individual what constitutes fair chase and how far he'll let the competition to get a trophy take him (or her).

[DBHAWTHORNE]

I know exactly who B&C are as an organization. and they are highly recognized as the leaders in hunting and fair chase. to elude at dismissing there stance on issues because there "a private record keeping origination " is once again a weak point to stand on. they have shaped hunting and conservation in this country from a time when there was no regulation and real threat of loosing resources was apparent.

I under stand my opinion meaning nothing, im nobody. but you may want to at least entertain where an organization like B&C is coming form and why. if you really care about the topic that is.

I have considered their position:
They are coming from a position that these devices could possibly be used in a method that's not fair chase and it wouldn't be possible for them to verify how they were/weren't used and thus they are in a position where they must ban the use of them for entering game in the record books.

I bring up the point that they are a private organization to just point out they do not speak for all hunters, they are not the sole omniscient purveyor of fair chase and its definition. Their definition of fair chase has an applicable purpose as it applies to their record book.

[Rainier10]

At what point do we outlaw fish finders, using electronics to put the bait in the face of the fish! Rangefinders that tell us how far the animal is so we know exactly how to compensate? Rifles that used to shoot accurate to 300 yards and now up to a mile! This list goes on but I think the point has been made many times already, all hunters are already utilizing equipment that makes them far more efficient than a camera that sends pictures to a cell phone. It's not that I am opposed to any of those items, I'm merely using them as an example of the hypocrisy of this topic.

I think the answer is possibly "never", but I don't think we should shy away from having discussions on them. There are options between banning everything, and restricting nothing.

Two really great statements here. 

[lord grizzly]

all hunters are already utilizing equipment that makes them far more efficient than a camera that sends pictures to a cell phone. It's not that I am opposed to any of those items, I'm merely using them as an example of the hypocrisy of this topic.

what hypocrisy? I fully agree there's many other items that affect efficiency of hunting. never said there wasn't, never said cameras did more. the topic at hand, if I read the title correctly is trail cameras. lets start a new thread for range finders and go have a discussion there since there absolutely not a camera feeding you a remote image.

I would say there's more attempts to muddy the issue I've read on here then hypocrisy.

[Machias]

here's part of the questionnaire you need to answer when submitting a trophy to B&C, underlined an interesting part. im not the only one holding these opinions, you guys find this group to be against you has a hunter?


For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Club’s® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible:

 I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the purpose of pursuit and shooting;
 II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
 III. Use of electronic communication devices to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities, thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter;
 IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape‑proof fenced enclosures;
 V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
 VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
 VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or artificial medium;
 VIII. On another hunter’s license;
 IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations or tribal lands;

I think you are missing a nuance in their rules.  A hunter on the mountain with a 2 way radio kills a big B&C Bull.  Is the bull allowed into the record books?  Yes, unless the hunter used the 2 way radio to harvest this bull.  He's not banned from having a 2 way radio, or a cell phone, he's just not allowed to use it to kill the bull.  If I go out tonight and kill a B&C bear on a site I have my wireless trail camera on, I'm still allowed to enter it in the books, unless I used that trail camera to kill that bear.  If I plan on going out tonight and I sit there from 5 pm until 9 pm and kill a bear on that site, it is still eligible for the book.  Now if I was sitting in my truck in between my three bait sites, waiting for the bear to show up at whichever site popped up on my cell phone, then that would be unethical and would not be eligible for the book.  I can ride a ATV into my hunting area and kill a book animal and it is legal in the eyes of B&C, but once I start to herd animals or chase them down, then it's no longer eligible.  We don't ban ATVs for hunting because someone might use them illegally.....

[lord grizzly]

here's part of the questionnaire you need to answer when submitting a trophy to B&C, underlined an interesting part. im not the only one holding these opinions, you guys find this group to be against you has a hunter?


For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Club’s® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible:

 I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the purpose of pursuit and shooting;
 II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
 III. Use of electronic communication devices to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities, thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter;
 IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape‑proof fenced enclosures;
 V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
 VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
 VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or artificial medium;
 VIII. On another hunter’s license;
 IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations or tribal lands;

I think you are missing a nuance in their rules.  A hunter on the mountain with a 2 way radio kills a big B&C Bull.  Is the bull allowed into the record books?  Yes, unless the hunter used the 2 way radio to harvest this bull.  He's not banned from having a 2 way radio, or a cell phone, he's just not allowed to use it to kill the bull.  If I go out tonight and kill a B&C bear on a site I have my wireless trail camera on, I'm still allowed to enter it in the books, unless I used that trail camera to kill that bear.  If I plan on going out tonight and I sit there from 5 pm until 9 pm and kill a bear on that site, it is still eligible for the book.  Now if I was sitting in my truck in between my three bait sites, waiting for the bear to show up at whichever site popped up on my cell phone, then that would be unethical and would not be eligible for the book. I can ride a ATV into my hunting area and kill a book animal and it is legal in the eyes of B&C, but once I start to herd animals or chase them down, then it's no longer eligible.  We don't ban ATVs for hunting because someone might use them illegally.....

we keep saying the same thing and you keep telling me how wrong I am.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

here's part of the questionnaire you need to answer when submitting a trophy to B&C, underlined an interesting part. im not the only one holding these opinions, you guys find this group to be against you has a hunter?


For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Club’s® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible:

 I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the purpose of pursuit and shooting;
 II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
 III. Use of electronic communication devices to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities, thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter;
 IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape‑proof fenced enclosures;
 V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
 VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
 VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or artificial medium;
 VIII. On another hunter’s license;
 IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations or tribal lands;

I think you are missing a nuance in their rules.  A hunter on the mountain with a 2 way radio kills a big B&C Bull.  Is the bull allowed into the record books?  Yes, unless the hunter used the 2 way radio to harvest this bull.  He's not banned from having a 2 way radio, or a cell phone, he's just not allowed to use it to kill the bull.  If I go out tonight and kill a B&C bear on a site I have my wireless trail camera on, I'm still allowed to enter it in the books, unless I used that trail camera to kill that bear.  If I plan on going out tonight and I sit there from 5 pm until 9 pm and kill a bear on that site, it is still eligible for the book.  Now if I was sitting in my truck in between my three bait sites, waiting for the bear to show up at whichever site popped up on my cell phone, then that would be unethical and would not be eligible for the book. I can ride a ATV into my hunting area and kill a book animal and it is legal in the eyes of B&C, but once I start to herd animals or chase them down, then it's no longer eligible.  We don't ban ATVs for hunting because someone might use them illegally.....

we keep saying the same thing and you keep telling me how wrong I am.

I don't think you are completely wrong on that issue.. but I think this type of use would be a rarity..and even when they tried to use it that way the difference in success rate would be negligible if at all because again... it's just not a very practical method to get after those animals......thus overall...it won't end up impacting the overall resource. For this reason I'm not in favor of banning it for everyone.

[Machias]

here's part of the questionnaire you need to answer when submitting a trophy to B&C, underlined an interesting part. im not the only one holding these opinions, you guys find this group to be against you has a hunter?


For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Club’s® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible:

 I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the purpose of pursuit and shooting;
 II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
 III. Use of electronic communication devices to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities, thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter;
 IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape‑proof fenced enclosures;
 V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
 VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
 VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or artificial medium;
 VIII. On another hunter’s license;
 IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations or tribal lands;

I think you are missing a nuance in their rules.  A hunter on the mountain with a 2 way radio kills a big B&C Bull.  Is the bull allowed into the record books?  Yes, unless the hunter used the 2 way radio to harvest this bull.  He's not banned from having a 2 way radio, or a cell phone, he's just not allowed to use it to kill the bull.  If I go out tonight and kill a B&C bear on a site I have my wireless trail camera on, I'm still allowed to enter it in the books, unless I used that trail camera to kill that bear.  If I plan on going out tonight and I sit there from 5 pm until 9 pm and kill a bear on that site, it is still eligible for the book.  Now if I was sitting in my truck in between my three bait sites, waiting for the bear to show up at whichever site popped up on my cell phone, then that would be unethical and would not be eligible for the book. I can ride a ATV into my hunting area and kill a book animal and it is legal in the eyes of B&C, but once I start to herd animals or chase them down, then it's no longer eligible.  We don't ban ATVs for hunting because someone might use them illegally.....

we keep saying the same thing and you keep telling me how wrong I am.

Then what are you arguing about?  There is a whole hosts of items we all use in the field all the time that can be abused, we both agree they shouldn't be abused, yet we are not talking about and supporting banning these other items!!

[Bob33]

Some thoughts from Boone & Crockett:

Fair chase is part of an overall hunting ethic. It reflects an ideal to pursue game in the field in a manner that pays respect to the animals hunted and the traditions of hunting as a mechanism for conservation. Fair chase is an approach that elevates the quality of the chase, the challenge, and experience above all else. By not overwhelming game species with human capabilities, fair chase helps define a hunter’s engagement in conservation. Fair chase has been embraced by hunters as the proper conduct of a sportsman in the field, and taught to new hunters for over a century.

As with any guideline that falls within a legal framework, but is also grounded in personal ethics that cannot and should not be legislated, interpretations of fair chase can vary. Laws are largely set by society and to protect, conserve and manage wildlife resources that are held in the public trust. Ethical decisions in hunting, however, ultimately rest with the individual in what feels right or wrong, and what technologies or methods are acceptable or unacceptable for them to be successful.

As a leading conservation organization and promoter of fair chase in North America, it is important to the Boone and Crockett Club that the nuances and benefits of fair chase are clearly understood by hunters and non-hunters. The Club is concerned that hunting practices that were once deemed unacceptable are becoming more commonplace. This is not only eroding our overall hunting ethic, but the public’s widespread support for hunting.
...
Fair chase is what separates hunting from simply killing or shooting. It demands restraint and self-reliance, aligns with North American wildlife laws, and is in service to conservation. Fair chase allows for lasting memories hunters can be proud of, provides young hunters with a proper path in hunting and in life, and meet the expectations of our modern societies. The Boone and Crockett Club believes ethical choices in hunting are more important today than at any previous time. Hunter’s values—their motivations and their conduct—shape society’s opinion of hunting. Hunters should be guided by principles whether applying to the activities of hunting in general, or for the qualification of trophies into the Club’s big game record book.

[singleshot12]

I guess the question should be - - where do we draw the line on electronic technology associated with hunting big game? You would think cell trail cams would cross that line

For me they don't cross the line because I think they will really not create the kind of advantage that some seem to believe.... but I can understand the argument against them...I just think the concerns aren't based in the same reality that I live in where animals don't wait around for me to show up and even if they do I'm not likely to stalk up on them successfully (not that I would ever use them in that capacity in the first place... I'd even be in favor of some kind of delay in the send/receipt of the photo..... I wouldn't desire immediate pictures.....but getting pictures without having to disturb the area and stress the animals is a good thing)..... I'll probably never use them in the Northwest....However, I'm strongly opposed to removing trail cam use during the season (like Montana does) as has been proposed....and even though I probably won't use them in the NW I'm not in favor of restricting them for those who do enjoy their use.... If I thought it gave some kind of real advantage that resulted in an unfair chase then I would oppose them.

Ok roger that! DB. I'm not really opposed to trail cam usage in season either. But in my mind I picture "that guy" abusing that usage. With him sitting above a semi open draw in eastern Washington. Down below the draw he has several bait stations set up couple hundred yards apart with cell cams at each one. This "guy" or "gal" for that matter is sitting on their ATV waiting for their cell phone to text an image of that trophy buck so they can race like a bat outa hell to the above location and snipe the animal 500 yards or so away below them.
It's the folks that abuse a privilege like baiting for example that ruin it for everyone and laws need to be adjusted for it.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

Let's make a law since everyone loves more laws: "Can't hunt the same day within XXX yards of location one received a live cell phone pic of animal"... problem solved....any question of unfair chase advantage allowed by a gap in the law gone.