North central mule deer

[boneaddict]

You can see how flexible they are or how intune they are with management of this herd.  Just look at the number of Quality tags available this year.   How many doe tags were there? 

[bigmacc]

You can see how flexible they are or how intune they are with management of this herd.  Just look at the number of Quality tags available this year.   How many doe tags were there?

Yes sir!.... I think one thing we can all agree on or at least most of us is the way this Methow herd has been "managed" is not working. Their are other ideas out there that would create a quality hunting experience, save the herd and make money.....Open minds are NOT a dangerous thing! ...............Fixed it, I added the NOT. 

[ghosthunter]

I have told the story before. Last year a game agent pulled into our camp with 5 under 3 pt. heads in his truck. And I know he got at least two more that day.

One or two game agents for the Methow is nuts.

All the problems mentioned already plus more game agents and higher fines need to be in place too.

I hate to see it but I would be in favor of shutting down all the deer hunting for 3 years.

[Skyvalhunter]

Well when they bring in 3 or 4 Wardens from SE part of the state on opening weekend you have to figure that they anticipated a lot of hunters. Shutting down the units there would be the way to go but that is not in the WDFW's vocabulary. Just ask Fitkin the biologist the herd up there has never been healthier.

[bigmacc]

If one herd goes draw only or shutdown it would destroy the other herds as well. I think it should be OTC general tag unless u want to apply for a special permit, then u only can hunt if u draw. Would increase odds for everyone while still allowing everyone to hunt if they wanw, without placing added pressure on another herd.

Everybody take a look at this, it keeps a general season and keeps a quality-special permit season(as it is now), what I think I'm reading here is you can only do one or the other?, either hunt the general with no special app. purchase or put in for a special permit and you sit out the general season that year:dunno:. If thats what UBA is saying here, this is kind of interesting!

[no.cen.wa]

I would be in favor of just dumping special hunts all together! The only special hunt I remember in the 60s was for a doe tag, most of us that put in would never use it, we called it "save a doe tag" It really doesn't matter, it'll never happen, there is just too much money they would lose in application fees.
I still think a very short season, 3,4,5 days would make a big difference and giving the big bucks, 3 point and more alittle break by going any buck once in awhile. We can let the WDFW keep their "cash cow" special permits and the bogus draw.
John G

[bigmacc]

IMO no.cen.wa thats what I find interesting with UBA,s idea. some folks will hunt the general season (still 8-10 days) but by buying a general season tag it null and voids you from participating in that years special permit draw. If you put in for a chance at a special permit you are null and void for hunting the general. There are a lot of folks who may opt for the special permit and their odds may be a little better I think it would help out general season hunters by taking a lot of hunters out of the woods and it would take a lot out of the drawing thus increasing their odds. Heck increase the special permit fee by 8 bucks to compensate for the folks who may just want to hunt the general . It just sounds like something like this may work and keep most(not all probably) hunters happy. I think some thought needs to be put into it and tweaked a little but hey its an idea, better than just throwing a bunch of doe tags at the issue and thinking that always fixes the problem which is what the current strategy seems to always be by those in charge ....

[no.cen.wa]

We all know something needs to be done, I always thought the blanket 3pt mule deer rule was NOT management, the deer that migrate like the methow herd needs different rules than the herds that stay in more local areas. Thats probably harder to patrol but they seem to be able to change fish and shellfish rule on a whim with little to no advance warning to fisherman. So, I suppose they just don't want to be bothered by watching the mule deer herd that close.

[OutHouse]

I agree with comments about things declining since hwy 20 was built over to Winthrop. I'm not old enough to have personal knowledge of this, but I know an older fella who helped build the North Cascades Hwy and he's been up in Mazama for about 50 years. He said before the hwy, herds of mule deer could be viewed in the middle of the valley on a regular basis.

The poaching and rules violations are also rampant. Getting the wildlife officers to come up to the top end of the valley is like pulling teeth, except you never get the tooth out. Two years ago I was doing archery and there was a guy near my area who was bating with tree stands. He shot a huge whitetail doe (probably 150 pounds), ripped off the hindquarters and left the rest of the meat. Then continued hunting! Myself and my brother were witness to this, called the officer in Omak I think, and he said "gosh that's a long drive all the way up there". I told him you have a clear case of waste of wildlife here with witnesses etc. and you don't want to pursue it? It was ridiculous--he tried to argue that waste is subjective or some nonsense.

[muleracks]

We use to go up and look at does on Harmony Heights above Brewster and would count over a hundred does and maybe see a spike or 2 point during the late part of the General season.  That was in the early 60s.  Won't see that this year.

[sjhgraysage]

This has been interesting / good reading. I have friends who grew up in the northwest Ferry county area and even in the mid and late 70's commented on how deer hunting then it was nothing like it was 10 to 15 years earlier. 
I believe the entire state's mule deer herd is struggling.
What is hard to believe is that our Wildlife Dept is so slow in seeing what Colorado, Nevada, and other mule deer states have already seen, and went to permit only deer hunting. Hunters have to be managed as well as the game animals. I think we past the point of seeing the reality that permit only hunting is the only way to manage both game and hunters. I know it won't be popular with a percentage of hunters, but I believe we owe to our wildlife. Rant over. 

[bigmacc]

I agree with comments about things declining since hwy 20 was built over to Winthrop. I'm not old enough to have personal knowledge of this, but I know an older fella who helped build the North Cascades Hwy and he's been up in Mazama for about 50 years. He said before the hwy, herds of mule deer could be viewed in the middle of the valley on a regular basis.

The poaching and rules violations are also rampant. Getting the wildlife officers to come up to the top end of the valley is like pulling teeth, except you never get the tooth out. Two years ago I was doing archery and there was a guy near my area who was bating with tree stands. He shot a huge whitetail doe (probably 150 pounds), ripped off the hindquarters and left the rest of the meat. Then continued hunting! Myself and my brother were witness to this, called the officer in Omak I think, and he said "gosh that's a long drive all the way up there". I told him you have a clear case of waste of wildlife here with witnesses etc. and you don't want to pursue it? It was ridiculous--he tried to argue that waste is subjective or some nonsense.

Well I believe it also(that the opening of the north cascade pass) was a huge contributor to the decline in the Methow herd. In its day it was the largest mule deer herd in the state, it wasn't kept a secret intentionally its just that pre-pass most people had no idea where the Methow valley was let alone where the "little town at the end of the road", (Winthrop) was. In the area we hunted (that covered a huge area, probably 10 square miles) everybody knew everybody, they knew where other folks hunted and they stayed out of their way. I'm sure a lot of you folks with history in the Methow have the same stories. My family started hunting it in 1917, my great grandparents had friends that had huge land parcels over there(mostly the north part of the valley). 95 percent of the land my family started hunting back then and into the 20,s is now Gov.land, DNR, forest service, national forest or game dept. land. Some was sold, some was donated to the game dept. Very little is still private property and the small percentage that is has been sold over and over again and is mostly located around the town of Winthrop. Heres a good one for you, I think it was back in the 40,s , my great grandpa was friends with the folks that owned a big hill along the side of a lake called Pearrygin lake, my dad was in the marine corp at the time and was young(and dumb ). My great grandpa wrote him a letter and asked if he wanted to go in halves and buy a couple thousand acres by this lake over by where they hunt, of coarse my dad knew where it was because he had been hunting the area since he was a boy. My dad turned down the deal for a lot of reasons like buying cars, etc.etc(the reasons most 20 somethings have for not wanting to invest ). Well the trigger was never pulled on the deal, and is one of my dads worst regrets in life, that parcel of land that was offered to my great grandparents was offered to them at $7.50 an acre and is now known as Studhorse Mountain. The pass opened this valley up to a lot of people, new opportunities, new ventures, and an influx of people that came and stayed. Large ranches and large tracts of property that had been in families for generations were being chopped up and sold and the rest is history. Pressure,and People(2 of the 3 P,s) started when the pass was opened IMHO. 

[bigmacc]

One more story and I'm done , we all know by now the Methow herd is not what it used to be and is getting worse, I speak the truth ,,,,Late 1960,s we were hunting down the valley(south) from where we usually hunted. We were young and in shape and the migration had kicked in a day or two earlier. An old friend of the family had sent us to an area I was not familiar with but I decided to listen and involve my pardners in this also. We put on a lot of miles, bucking snow that was 2 ft deep and a wind that cut straight through you. We saw deer around every corner, deer around every bend, around every bunch of buckbrush and water hole. We estimated somewhere around 4 miles(one way) and 250 or more deer. Does, spikes, small 2,s , 3,s , and a nice non typical we could not get a clean round into and let live. We headed back. We were cold, tired, hungry and shot. We rolled into our real camp about an hour before quitting time. When we came around a Big old pine (that our tents were next to) we came face to face with a couple dandy bucks, a 4by6 and a 4by5 that were 20yards from our tents!....no folks, the Methow is no where near what it used to be.

[bigmacc]

We as hunters need to get behind, get in front, or demand something be done about this herd or IMO it will be lost. The dept. needs to listen to ideas and have an open mind. They can still make money, save this herd, offer a quality experience for hunters and save other herds in the process. I wish it was still the DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME ......If this herd continues the slide its on, I predict in15 to 20 years it will be lights out, then all the other herds up around Wenatchee, Entiat and other parts of the state will follow. Dominoe effect, more hunters every year will be forced into other areas. Statewide draw only for mule deer?..... might not be a bad deal It will all start with the Methow folks, something needs to be done.

[bigmacc]

Well just a report, my son and another partner just got back from 6 days of scouting in the Methow(I was there for 3 days). This is the real deal folks- bad, bad, and another bad! We hit haunts from mid valley up into the 30 mile area, elevations from 2000 feet to 7000ft. Total boot miles put on 20-25, truck miles within the valley-489, glassing hours somewhere around 15. Now I know enough about this area and this time of year to know we are scouting local deer and mid level deer, we were not up into country that the big migration comes out of but even the 4 to 7 thousand ft deer are migrators because they will move out when weather pushes them, they just don't travel as far. Between the 3 of us we seen 64 deer 9 of those being bucks and 2 of those 9 were legal. To put into perspective, roughly this same scouting trip 8 years ago was 193 deer spotted,26 being bucks and 14 of 26 being legal. Same trip 20years ago- 322, 46 and 19 of 46. Same trip 30 years ago-478,79 and 30 of 79. Heres the eye opener, 40 years ago-789, 146, 49 of 146. I'm sure everyone sees the trend. I know this isn't scientific, its just an observation by boots on the ground, a lot of other folks we know are seeing the same kind of trend. Ive seen some posts on here that are reflecting the same kind of declines.