Colockum Spike rule change?

[gasman]

Again, i pose the question.

What or where do the rest of the hunters go?

You know, the general hunting population for the area. The hundreds in not thousands (I do not know the exact number) of hunters that have hunted that area regularly and/or occationally for years as family traditions.

is there a ara that can sustain a dramidick increase in hunting pressure.

Or maybe we just identify those people and tell them they can not hunt unless,mthey draw a permit.

Not trying to stir the pot, but this is some thing that needs to be addressed also.

[Buckrub]

not only where will everybody go?
Will the tribes take half the permits for their share?

[colockumelk]

I'll bite....
What about the tribes? How do you put the teeth into the tribal hunting?

I'm not going to answer that question for the third time.  I've alread answered your question.  Read the previous threads.

The anwer to that is in the article I wrote at Washington Sportsmen.com  go this link if you want to know how.

http://www.washingtonsportsmen.com/?q=node/80

[colockumelk]

Again, i pose the question.

What or where do the rest of the hunters go?

They can still hunt the other areas.  There are many, many other GMU's in this state that is not permit only.

You know, the general hunting population for the area. Yes it was 3893 in 2007 The hundreds if not thousands (I do not know the exact number) of hunters that have hunted that area regularly and/or occationally for years as family traditions. No one is saying they can't hunt.  They will just have to hunt somewhere else unless they get drawn. Which as I have proven would be at the longest every 3 years.

is there a area that can sustain a dramatic increase in hunting pressure. Not all 3893 people would go to the same GMU.

Or maybe we just identify those people and tell them they can not hunt unless,mthey draw a permit.

Not trying to stir the pot, but this is some thing that needs to be addressed also.

[gasman]

True, not all people will go to the same place, but the majority of them will go to the closes unit and/or hunt the boundry units.Most of us stay with the "Familar Areas" that we know, and most have explored the units arount where we hunt the most.

To think that all or even 50% of the hunters will spread out over the rest of the state is not realistic. I would bet 90% would stay in the surrounding units and adding extra pressure to those units.


When they closed the Tennaway (or maybe it was cow only, i do not remeber the exact reason) about 3or4 years ago i seen a dramic increase in bow hunters in the Bumping unit during that year. We talked with many others that said "they moved because of the new regulations " "they wanted to hunt cow or spike and could not do that, so they headed to the closes open unit that would allow them to".


Just food for thought..........

[Elkaholic daWg]

I've also heard you mention 5 pt minimum.]




 Huh? Where and when? 

[Cougeyes]

Colockumelk,
  I've read some of your posts and want to say thanks for taking the stance that you are and the effort that you're employing on this topic.   390 permits just seems way too many, and i know you're basing that off hunter success and spike recruitment etc.. I mean look at Peaches ridge unit that has a quality heard with some big bulls and has a general spike season, they only issued 267 permits last year between the 3 user groups.   Although your calculations and everything lines up with me, 390 seems too many, at least to begin with.  I dont disagree with going to permit only for the colockum, but disagree with issuing that many permits for a herd that needs to recover.  I understand the recruitment of spikes would be exponential, however by issuing that many permits your larger bulls would get hammered right away, the main breeders leaving lesser bulls to breed....just seems like the permits should even be cut back at first until the number rebounds and the quality of branch bulls returns and can sustain issuing 390 permits. If 85% of spikes are killed every year just think about the success rate of permit hunters who could harverst a branched bull.  I didn't read all your posts and maybe missed this in a discussion, sorry if you already mentioned this.  

[MichaelJ]

Colockumelk,
  I've read some of your posts and want to say thanks for taking the stance that you are and the effort that you're employing on this topic.   390 permits just seems way too many, and i know you're basing that off hunter success and spike recruitment etc.. I mean look at Peaches ridge unit that has a quality heard with some big bulls and has a general spike season, they only issued 267 permits last year between the 3 user groups.   Although your calculations and everything lines up with me, 390 seems too many, at least to begin with.  I dont disagree with going to permit only for the colockum, but disagree with issuing that many permits for a herd that needs to recover.  I understand the recruitment of spikes would be exponential, however by issuing that many permits your larger bulls would get hammered right away, the main breeders leaving lesser bulls to breed....just seems like the permits should even be cut back at first until the number rebounds and the quality of branch bulls returns and can sustain issuing 390 permits. If 85% of spikes are killed every year just think about the success rate of permit hunters who could harverst a branched bull.  I didn't read all your posts and maybe missed this in a discussion, sorry if you already mentioned this.  

Why not split the 390 tags between cows/spike/bulls???

Michael

[Cougeyes]

Good suggestion Michael, I wasn't sure what colockumelk was suggesting for the permits, I was caught up in only the bulls, maybe he was implying 390 across cows/spikes/bulls, not sure though, but I think 390 across those classes is easily sustainable. 

[colockumelk]

Colockumelk,
  I've read some of your posts and want to say thanks for taking the stance that you are and the effort that you're employing on this topic.   390 permits just seems way too many, and i know you're basing that off hunter success and spike recruitment etc.. I mean look at Peaches ridge unit that has a quality heard with some big bulls and has a general spike season, they only issued 267 permits last year between the 3 user groups.   Although your calculations and everything lines up with me, 390 seems too many, at least to begin with.  I dont disagree with going to permit only for the colockum, but disagree with issuing that many permits for a herd that needs to recover.  I understand the recruitment of spikes would be exponential, however by issuing that many permits your larger bulls would get hammered right away, the main breeders leaving lesser bulls to breed....just seems like the permits should even be cut back at first until the number rebounds and the quality of branch bulls returns and can sustain issuing 390 permits. If 85% of spikes are killed every year just think about the success rate of permit hunters who could harverst a branched bull.  I didn't read all your posts and maybe missed this in a discussion, sorry if you already mentioned this.  

Thank you Cougeyes for taking the time to read my post.  When I calculated the 390 number I meant for the 2010 hunting season not the 2009 hunting season.  Ideally they would close it down for 2009 in order to get a quick bounce of an additional 350 spikes that would turn into branch bulls.  Either that or make it permit only for 2009 and just keep the amount of branch permits that they were originally going to give out this year.  As for why there would be more permits given in the Colockum than in the Peaches Ridge unit;  Most people agree that the WDFW is super stingy on giving out their branch bull permits and could as of right now give out way more permits than they do.  Especially since the Yakima herd is above the goal for a good bull to cow ratio.  Here's an example of how I came up with my stuff.

CSPCurrent amount of bull permits given out.
SPIKE HARVEST Amount of Spikes killed in that unit that could have become branch bulls
RATIO %   Percent of Animals that go to that user group/Number of animals entitled to that user group.
ADD  Additional amount of special permits that would now be available.
TOTAL The new amount of special permits that would now be given out.

MODERN
GMU                  CSP      SPIKE HARVEST    RATIO%          ADD.      TOTAL       
Colockum            9             266                  64%/170       221         230                                             
Peaches Ridge      150          115                 55%/63         110         260                                             
Observatory         80           136                  41%/56         70          160                                            
Goose Prairie        96           59                    39%/23         44          140                                           
Bethel                 62           63                    53%/33         58          120                                           
Rimrock               123          42                    53%22          47          170                                           
Cowiche              24            99                    48%/48        26           50                                         
TOTAL:              567          780             AVG.50%/415      576          1143                                     

 NOTEWhile the Colockum only accounts for 25% of the 300 series elk population.  It accounts for 34% of the spike harvest.  Compare this to Peaches Ridge/Observatory which accounts for 32% of the spike harvest, Goose Prairie/Bethel  which accounts for 15% of the harvest and Rimrock/Cowiche which accounts for 18% of the spike harvests.  This is why if the Colockum would greatly benefit from a permit only system (with an increase of 25.5x more special permits given out) while the Yakima herd if it went to permit only would not benefit nearly as much (only an increase of only 1.6X more permits given out)

[Cougeyes]

Thanks for the clarification.  You're really doing your homework on this topic and I hope your effort and dedication pays off.  I'll send my letter to the commission in support because I feel if we continue with the harvest and management the way we are now this herd is a lost cause.  I dont even hunt it but know the number of bulls is way down.  Thanks for throwing out those statistics.  Its great when you pull them all together and actually show the commission those stats that their biologists are coming up with, can't argue the truth when backed with facts like you provided.  Good luck and keep us posted on this topic.

[colockumelk]

Thankyou for your support Coug I appreciate it.  Hopefully many on here are as concerned as you are and decide to do something to help out as well.  Even if people don't agree with this I hope they will still work with me and my group to help out he herd in other ways.

In another thread I realized many misunderstood what my main goal is.  It's my fault because I forgot to completely mention it.  My goal is not for the Colockum to go to permit only forever.  I just want it to go to permit only so we can build the herd back up.  The following explains what I would like to see happen and why.

It would go permit only for the next three or four years.  This year it would be permit only and they would give out the amount of permits that they have already specified.  9 for modern, 4 for bow and 1 for ML.  Then they would for the next three years set the branch permit levels by their surveys just like they do now.  Like I said I don't think that 390 permits would be that big of a stretch, but who knows it is the WDFW we are talking about.  Like you I also believe, actually I KNOW it's all about the revenue. 

This three year pause in the general hunting season would give the herd time to rebuild it's bull to cow ratio to a healthy ratio.  It would also give us the time needed to close down enough roads to actually make a difference.  If it stayed general season we wouldn't  have time this summer to close enough roads to help the herd out.  I don't want it to be permit only just like all of you.  I just don't see  how with the current situation there is any other choice. 

I also want to get support for permit only in there so we can have an affect on the circumstances and stipulations of going to permit only because it is going to happen whether we like it or not.  The "True Spike" only thing is a last resort before they close it or go to permit only.  If it doesn't work then it's permit only and the WDFW even said they only expect it to have a 10% improvement on the yearling bull survival.  So even they don't think it will work.  I know this is not what many want to hear but like I said it's coming whether we want it to or not.

[Cougeyes]

I think the slick spike rule is a joke.  I bet there will be a lot of shooting and walking away because of not being able to identify a "true spike" and having an animal go to waste.  I understand that shutting down an entire unit for general hunting is most likely going to create an uproar but in order to continue hunting there and possibly having success in the future i hope these other people understand that this may be a viable option.  I think (would hope) they would rather have an opportunity down the road to draw a tag, potentially in a shorter time than before to harvest a branched bull. Although just being able to have the opportunity to hunt in an area and potentially harvest an animal every year may sit just as well with someone and they could care less about shooting a branched bull. 

I am concerned though with where these user groups will go if the colockum is shut down and the impacts they may have in other GMU's.  Hopefully they dont all pile into one GMU and harvest a bunch of spikes hurting that herd.  I can't think of other GMU's though that are comparable to the Colockum in terms of habitat and access and the openness. 

I really hope some of the access is limited up there, although if gates are installed i know we will have those that will find a way around.  If tribal members want to hunt up there hopefully they will have to work for their take and then wont shoot as many and anyone else attempting to poach up there. 

 

[colockumelk]

I think that if we go permit only for three years or so, it will give the herd a chance to rebuild itself.  Even if we're giving out 400 permits a year.  Also this three years will give us time to restrict the road access to curb both poaching and some (not all) tribal members from shooting 6 branch bulls a year in there.  And most importantly it will give the elk some escapement during the hunting season so hopefuly only 50% of the spikes are killed every year instead of 80-90%.  Ideally I would like to see  them go to 3pt minimum or as some suggested 5 pt minimum and try that for three years.  After all what do we have to lose?  It couldn't get any worse than it is now right?  Obviously spike only doesn't work so maybe this will.

[Skyvalhunter]

Thats a big "IF" and you maybe be hoping for a while.