328 - 329 True Spike Question

[camanofishn]

Just asking, any ideas how long the game department will keep the true spike law on the books?  Rumor is that this is the last year for the "true spike", not sure how true the rumor is.  I find it hard to identify a true spike when they are running.

Wondering how many Elk are killed that are not legal? It's a shame to waste any Elk.

From all of the hunting camps I saw during the general season the state continues to sell many tags.  I suspect that they will not change the law true spike law until the Elk tag sales decline. 

Your thoughts?

[steeleywhopper]

Biggest crock of crap rule ever put on us hunters. Hopefully they dump the rule soon.

[time2hunt]

 But tell if this was not the best year in a long time for seeing multiple branched bulls in the herds


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[Bullmoose]

It has been nice seeing Cows and calves and large bulls

[JJJ]

I was on the Colockum road Sat. 11/4.... Three game warden pickups were driving out with a large bull in the 2nd truck. I couldn't tell how large, but could see his last two points sticking out of the bed of the pickup.-- They were both at least 10" long.... On the same day, I talked with another game warden on the Naneum ridge road, and he said they were investigating TEN different cases involving illegal bull kills; mainly 1x2's--- The true spike rule needs to go away; it seems like people are not identifying the elk properly, and hoping that its a true spike on the other antler, or......-- Regardless, there's 10 bulls that WE KNOW OF killed.

[vandeman17]

The spike rule is frustrating enough, and the true spike is just a little over the top. In a perfect world, it would be ok for a certain time frame if they truly felt it would improve herd health. The problem is, like stated, how many "hunters" out there shoot first and verify second. The elk that go to waste far outweighs the perceived benefits. 

[kball4]

We talked to a guy who had the time to count 158 head of elk 2 spikes only 1 true spike in the herd, on the south end of Colockum. 1/158 is not good odds. 

[BreezyBear]

The Colockum is definitely in need of a new elk management plan........but time2hunt is absolutely correct, plenty of big bulls around this year!

[Moe the Sleaze]

I was in 328, saw a group of 50 at 40 yards, one 3-point and 49 cows.  Saw a group of 30 not in shooting range, two 3-points and 28 cows.  I only heard of ONE true spike being shot.

I continue to feel that hunting the 328 with true spike in place and no cow tag SUCKS.

Face it, anything "general" sucks anymore.

[yakimanoob]

I've never been able to figure out the logic in the spike-only rule, except to simply reduce total harvest.  I don't really know the right answer though.

I can't accept the idea that since people don't follow the rules, we should dump the rules.  That seems nuts to me.  If we may it 3pt or better, we'll be telling stories of people shooting spikes.  If we make it any bull, I imagine we'll see a big drop in herd numbers. 

[Rainier10]

So the solution to a few people shooting 1x2's and getting ticketed or letting them waste is to open it up to everyone to shoot 1x2's?  With that logic we should open up hunting year round because the poachers are doing it.

I will say with the true spike rule in place I am seeing way more mature bulls in my area.

For my early archery bull hunt I was working a heard of 100 cows and 13 5pt or better bulls.  On the last day of the hunt I was in a herd of 200 elk and I counted 29 6x6 bulls go over the ridge.

When I was out the second weekend of muzzy season with my daughter we kept bumping solo bulls, they had left the cows already by the second weekend.

[GreggHunts2hard4u]

I talked to a Sergeant in the wind farm, brought up how long true spike will continue. Heck of a nice guy weve seen our fair share of Sergeants up there over the years. He explained that its up to the biologist that fly around and do their counts and if they dont see what they want they keep true spike and decide whether or not to give archer's free reign on cows or give out cow permits to the rifle hunters. Where we were camped for the season, we saw no sign of elk sat-tues. Wed and thurs we were into 200+ both days in our area i was close quarters pursuing a herd of 100+ that had a few small branched bulls and atleast 1 true spike which i sucessfully harvested after 16yrs of hunting my area hard and learning the area and where the elk tend to be. Its a tough area to hunt ive had a lot of years of discouraging years. The constant hunting pressure from September 1st till modern opener is pretty rough on the elk herd, they get no break. I personally saw 6 true spikes including mine that were hanging from meat poles over 7 days straight up there. Then only a couple of cows when we left Friday at noon. I gave up hoping it'll change from True Spike years ago.  It is what it is but its the biologist that decide what we get to hunt

[GreggHunts2hard4u]

According to wdfw officers ive talked with, true spikes aren't breeder bulls. They say the branched bulls are more likely to try to breed than the baby true spikes.  makes sense to me. Either way if we conserve the bulls they will be killed by the natives no matter what because their ancestors killed them many moons ago up there. Lets manage the herd by allowing the natives to only harvest cows and our bull to cow ratio will be golden in a few years

[bowhunterforever]

Tagging

[time2hunt]

Is the true spike is working perfectly the answer is no. But look at the bright side that unit went from 3-5 big bull tags a year to 21-23 tags a year so the system is working on getting the carry over they need.


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[7mmfan]

According to wdfw officers ive talked with, true spikes aren't breeder bulls. They say the branched bulls are more likely to try to breed than the baby true spikes.  makes sense to me. Either way if we conserve the bulls they will be killed by the natives no matter what because their ancestors killed them many moons ago up there. Lets manage the herd by allowing the natives to only harvest cows and our bull to cow ratio will be golden in a few years

Except "we" have no say in what the tribe does. It's a federal issue, and the feds won't touch it.

[GreggHunts2hard4u]

Is the true spike is working perfectly the answer is no. But look at the bright side that unit went from 3-5 big bull tags a year to 21-23 tags a year so the system is working on getting the carry over they need.


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Well put! Wonder how many of those big bull tags get filled? I know an old guy hunting solo  that was still searching for a branched bull on 11/2 he had been up there since the tag had opened

[time2hunt]

To me some of the issue with the illegal kills is that the unit is a complete zoo. When elk are seen the the ATV , four wheel drives, horses and what means of travel begin the chase and a lot hunters are shooting before looking at there target. 


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[GreggHunts2hard4u]

According to wdfw officers ive talked with, true spikes aren't breeder bulls. They say the branched bulls are more likely to try to breed than the baby true spikes.  makes sense to me. Either way if we conserve the bulls they will be killed by the natives no matter what because their ancestors killed them many moons ago up there. Lets manage the herd by allowing the natives to only harvest cows and our bull to cow ratio will be golden in a few years

Except "we" have no say in what the tribe does. It's a federal issue, and the feds won't touch it.

Believe me i know. They know they cant ve touched either, a few years back we called in a group of them chasing a herd down the middle of a clearing off any designated road shooting out the back and killing multiple elk right in front of us. Sergeant got out his ticket book, they said you cant touch us youll have to talk to our tribal police. Sergeant said i can write you a ticket for driving off road and that was it.

[yakimanoob]

For my early archery bull hunt I was working a heard of 100 cows and 13 5pt or better bulls.  On the last day of the hunt I was in a herd of 200 elk and I counted 29 6x6 bulls go over the ridge.

You quit yer braggin'.   

[JJJ]

I can see that there are two sides to this fence, and both sides have some VERY valid points.... my only concern is that many 1x2's that I have seen are just baaaarely a 2.... awefully hard to see in the moment, -- I'm not making excuses for the lack of judgement when these people pull the trigger in haste; I'm just stating that it IS happening. -I also agree that there will still be irresponsible people shooting 2 x 2's  if we raise it to 3 point or better or whatever points they may decide on. I would hope to believe that an ethical hunter who would see an older bull with 2x2 would realize that easier? ... most, not all,  2x2's have a taller rack and prominent points.-- of course those that would still harvest an animal like that in a spike only unit would still pull the trigger on just about any bull? .... very frustrating-- just putting out food for thought, folks... I see both sides---it's just tough to hear of so many young bulls with a 1" web point being left to lay after a guy takes a long shot or whatever... those bulls won't live to achieve the true spike rule intentions... just throwing some thoughts out there....

[bobcat]

True spike is the dumbest thing ever. They need to eliminate the general seasons and go to permit only, and ANY bull should be legal for those who draw permits.

[winshooter88]

A couple of years ago I asked a WDFW biologist when the true spike designation would be removed and his answer was "not in your lifetime". I am 61 so take your calculations from there.

[ballpark]

On 10/29(Sunday) I had one brief chance at a "true spike" but could not verify both antlers before he hit the bottom into dark stuff.  I was almost sure but not 100%, never saw another spike - plenty of branched. 

[greenhead_killer]

It’s a garbage rule. I’ve had spikes at 25 feet that looked to be 100% ts until they turned their head and a 2” kicker is sitting 4” from the top. That’s at 25 feet and hard to tell. Not a chance in hell you can see that at 200 yards in some of the thicker stuff. I get close two a dozen try’s spikes on cams every year in there but refuse to hunt it archery anymore until they take otc cows off the board. It’s as bad as rifle is now.

[doyourtime89]

This is a garbage rule for sure.  I know and have talked to numerous hunters I come across and everyone of them have stories ever year of seeing and/or coming across a dead 1x2 or small 1x3 what ever it is.  They got shot and felt to waste.  I do understand trying to keep as many big bulls around to breed and what not but the truth is your aren't saying many of the small bull (1x2, 1x3 or what ever) because they are just being killed and left.  So why not just go to "spike" like just about every other east side unit.  You still save the "big bulls" to bread but all spikes with little kickers don't get killed and go to waste they can go home to someone freezer.  "True spike" is one of the worst things ever.  They can not honestly tell me you are saving so many more breeders from "spike" to "true spike" rules.  Only difference is the "spikes" are being killed but not being taken home.  Same about of elk killed.  This rule just changes how many are left to waste to taken home.

[BreezyBear]

I also get plenty of true spikes on my cams..........also agree the archery show is as bad as rifle now.  Found a blind that actually had different colored flags at 10, 20, 30 yards staked out in several directions down lanes cleared with a chain saw.  True spike is garbage, and general archery cow is the same

[Rainier10]

Here are the benefits to true spike.

#1 it keeps the area open for hunting.  There are a ton of guys that have hunted the colockum for generations.  By making it true spike you still give those traditionalists the opportunity to hunt the area.  The next option was to close the unit totally and that would have displaced a ton of hunters and taken away the opportunity for many that just want to hunt that unit with their hunting party and family like they have done for years.

#2 it actually reduces pressure on this herd. Like others have said most other units on the east side are spike only.  Many if given the option of hunting true spike or spike only will take the spike only area and that lowers the number of hunters in the true spike area.

#3 even though a few 1x2's and 1x3's are getting shot there are still a bunch of them that make it through and become mature bulls. As others have said there are way more mature bulls than there have been in the past.  The game department recognizes that and the number of bull permits has increased.

As for archery general cow permits that is another story. If they want to reduce pressure on this herd they should eliminate the general archery cow option and just give out permits for that.  By doing this you would move more hunters out of this area to surrounding GMU's that have general archery cow seasons.

I think right now they are still in the "we need to reduce cow numbers in the unit" and that is why it is still open for general archery cow hunting.

[doyourtime89]

I hear what you are saying.  But I honestly think from talking to hunters and game wardens that A LOT of 1x2's and 1X3's are getting shot and left to rot.  I just don't feel that the true spike rule is really allowing that many 1x2's and 1x3's to live and make it through the season.  I know there has to be some but I am guessing not many.  And would you rather see the ones kills just rot or be allowed to go home with someone.  I guess my point is about the same number of small bulls are being killed so you aren't allowing that many to live on.  Its just what happens to them once they are shot.  I was over there with a cow tag this year and the herd I got my cow out of was about 90 or so elk.  1-7x7, 2-5x5's, 1-2x4, 2-1x2's and 2-1x1's.  Side note:  both 1x1's and one of the 1x2's had their right side horn facing straight down the side of their face.  On the 1x2, the 2 was up and the 1 was facing down.  I guy I was with shot one of the 1x1's, but it took us a long time to feel comfortable for him to take the shot because on the side that was standing up right there was a piece of dried up velvet that was still attached to the horn and was really had to look it over and over to make sure it wasn't a second point. 

[time2hunt]

The question is why are they being shot ? Poor optics , not looking at there intended target before shooting or just in such a hurry to beat the other guy .


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[Wahoo]

This post is not meant to start the user group against user group argument but just a thought to make the true spike rule a little more agreeable to the modern and muzzy user groups if they are going to keep the rule in effect.

What if they take the true spike opportunity away from the archery user group since they are allowed to harvest cows during their general seasons? This might be a way to increase the chances for modern and muzzy users who are not allowed to harvest cows without a special permit by not reducing the number of true spikes in the woods before their general seasons open.

 

[Rainier10]

This post is not meant to start the user group against user group argument but just a thought to make the true spike rule a little more agreeable to the modern and muzzy user groups if they are going to keep the rule in effect.

What if they take the true spike opportunity away from the archery user group since they are allowed to harvest cows during their general seasons? This might be a way to increase the chances for modern and muzzy users who are not allowed to harvest cows without a special permit by not reducing the number of true spikes in the woods before their general seasons open.

I think the thread is a good one with good points being made on each side.  I think with the open dialogue it allows people from each side of the discussion see other side.  From that ideas get generated like yours above and having archers only shoot cows and take spikes off the table for them.

I can say that personally my friends and family all in advance of the season take spikes off the table during archery and any season that one of them has a cow tag.  With the option for a cow and a higher percentage chance of seeing/taking one we just pass on the spikes leaving that very slim opportunity for a hunter that doesn't have the cow option.

[Rainier10]

One reason I can get behind the true spike only rule is the tradition of hunting this area.  It is a real deal for a bunch of hunters and I would hate to see the area go to permit only and have those long time hunters displaced because they didn't draw a permit.

The reason I understand is we have a family tradition of hunting a certain late season archery deer unit.  Our family has hunted the same area since 1977.  When there is talk of closing it down we lobby for them to keep it open. In one of my statements to the commission I asked that if they had to leave the season open to 4x4 , three legged deer with only one eye but at least leave it open so we can go on the annual trip and walk around with our bows.    It was an exageration of the true spike rule but similar in the fact that it is ludicrous but would keep a general season for those that are willing to abide by those rules.

For those that can't stand the true spike rule there are other units not far away that allow the taking of 1x2's and 1x3's.  If you want to hunt 328 you just have to deal with a little more restriction but at least you can still hunt it with a general tag.

And finding a true spike is still easier than finding 4x4 three legged blind in one eye buck that I had proposed for another GMU. 

[GreggHunts2hard4u]

One reason I can get behind the true spike only rule is the tradition of hunting this area.  It is a real deal for a bunch of hunters and I would hate to see the area go to permit only and have those long time hunters displaced because they didn't draw a permit.

The reason I understand is we have a family tradition of hunting a certain late season archery deer unit.  Our family has hunted the same area since 1977.  When there is talk of closing it down we lobby for them to keep it open. In one of my statements to the commission I asked that if they had to leave the season open to 4x4 , three legged deer with only one eye but at least leave it open so we can go on the annual trip and walk around with our bows.    It was an exageration of the true spike rule but similar in the fact that it is ludicrous but would keep a general season for those that are willing to abide by those rules.

For those that can't stand the true spike rule there are other units not far away that allow the taking of 1x2's and 1x3's.  If you want to hunt 328 you just have to deal with a little more restriction but at least you can still hunt it with a general tag.

And finding a true spike is still easier than finding 4x4 three legged blind in one eye buck that I had proposed for another GMU. 

Well said, my father has hunted 328/329 for 49 years and his father for longer until he passed and ive put in 16yrs but have spent time up there for 25yrs with my father. I get a thrill chasing elk in hopes there is a true spike in the bunch, if a dumb true spike presents me with an opportunity to harvest it i will. Ive passed on countless spikes that were borderline and just wasnt 100% sure over the years and was fortunate enough to beat the odds on the 6th day of this modern rifle season. Now i was lucky enough to draw a Malaga bull permit in 2004 and harvested a nice wall hanger and to be honest i get more of a thrill out if hunting true spikes. Its the ultimate hunt for me it tests my sportmanship skills by knowing the rules and being 100% sure of my target before pulking the trigger. Yeah it can be super frustrating and discouraging knowing you can only harvest true spikes but if you cant manage to put in the time year after year, get to know the land, get familiar with the elk patterns and their exit routes then itll never pay off. Like i said ive spent the last 16yrs learning my areas and making rookie mistakes and letting the elk get ahead of me. My dad has spent 49 seasons during modern rifke elk and harvested over 30 elk in his time up there between cow tags bull tags and general rifle seasons he isnt lucky he just knows the elk and their routes and has put in his time since he harvested his first elk at the age of 12 up there. Haters gone hate but im behind the true spike rule until the bull to cow ratio is healthy enough to sustain atleast 3-5yrs of we will say 3pt min as an example. They give and take away cows for the archers general season give out a ton or a few cow permits fir the rifle guys, it all depends on what the biologists see on their fly overs. The herd population used to be WAY down to where they only gave out a handfull if bull permits, now its over 20 so i like to think true spike is working. My 

[dreadi]

A spotting scope and patience would eliminate some of the illegal kills that are left to rot.

[Rainier10]

I would like to know how many true spikes make it through because of hanging velvet?  I know my daughter got one that had velvet still hanging at the top that I had to make darn sure was a true spike. We almost passed because of that left antler.

[GreggHunts2hard4u]

I had atleast 3 encounters with 2x2's this past modern rifle season that when they stared at you head on looked like true spikes. They all branched straight back and you wouldnt know until they turned their head to bust out that they were branched bulls. Its a scary moment to make a split second decision and a well placed shot(hopefully not into a herd). Like Rainier10 said, there are lots of GMU's near by that allow the harvest of 1x2's and such. If ya cant hack it and be patient then dont hunt true spikes. No doubt about it its challenging and can be discouraging but patience pays in gmus 328/329. Its not about the harvest it's about the experience and the knowledge you bring back every year thatll help you succeed in these gmu's. Keep putting in for branched bull tags and cow permits someday your number will get drawn and until then either deal with true spikes or go somewhere else. I hunt with some die hards that come from a LONG ways away to pursue true spikes and they enjoy it as much as my father and I. Plus the true spike are tender eatin

[doubletall]

It blows my mind that there are people out there that shoot first and ID later.  I hunt blacktails in a 3 point gmu and had to pass on 2 different easy shots on 3x2's because they turned to stare me and at least side was lined up such that you could only see the main beam.  One stood and stared for at least a minute without moving a muscle until he bolted and I saw the profile right before he went behind a tree.

[doyourtime89]

I had atleast 3 encounters with 2x2's this past modern rifle season that when they stared at you head on looked like true spikes. They all branched straight back and you wouldnt know until they turned their head to bust out that they were branched bulls. Its a scary moment to make a split second decision and a well placed shot(hopefully not into a herd). Like Rainier10 said, there are lots of GMU's near by that allow the harvest of 1x2's and such. If ya cant hack it and be patient then dont hunt true spikes. No doubt about it its challenging and can be discouraging but patience pays in gmus 328/329. Its not about the harvest it's about the experience and the knowledge you bring back every year thatll help you succeed in these gmu's. Keep putting in for branched bull tags and cow permits someday your number will get drawn and until then either deal with true spikes or go somewhere else. I hunt with some die hards that come from a LONG ways away to pursue true spikes and they enjoy it as much as my father and I. Plus the true spike are tender eatin

Great theory and you are 100% correct.  You need to make for sure it is a true spike and that all fine and good to talk that on this site because I think most people on this site are like that and hunt the right way.  Like in my past post while we were there this year we really had to look over a couple spikes to make sure the one my friend shot was a true spike and it was like the picutre above.  It had some dried up velvet on one side up near the top that made us take some extra time to make sure.  But the real truth is there aren't a lot of people out there doing what we are saying should be done.  Most are doing like what the last post said.  They are shooting first and ID'ing later.  So my point is...the 1x2's, 1x3's and such aren't living on to breed and become bigger bulls like we would all like them to do.  The reality is they are being shot and left to waste.  Its a numbers game, the goal of the true spike rule is to get more bulls to survie the hunting season and become bigger and better breeds.  The ture is, not that many of the 1x2's, 1x3's and such are making it through the season.  So its not working.

[GreggHunts2hard4u]

I think more branched bulls make it through than we think. There are simply too many hunters and wildlife enforcement officers up there now a days to try to get away with anything in my opinion. Every shot i hear flocks curious hunters to the location, you can barely drop your pants and take a dump without seeing orange up there. I looked at game regs from 2007 till present and here is the Modern Rifle Bull Permit numbers:
2007 - 328/329 - 9 rifle branched bull tags
2008 - 328/329 - 3 rifle branced bull tags
*true spike implemented for 2009 season*
2009 - 328/329 - 5 rifle + 1 rut rifle
2010 - 328/329 -  2 rifle + 1 rut rifle
2011 - 328/329 -  2 rifle + 1 rut rifle
2012 - 328/329/335 - 5 rifle + 1 rut rifle
2013 - 328/329/335 - 1 rifle + 1 rut rifle
2014 - 328/329/335 - 6 rifle + 1 rut rifle
2015 - 328/329/335 - 6 rifle + 1 rut rifle
2016 - 328/329 - 23 rifle + 1 rut rifle
2017 - 328/329 - 22 rifle + 1 rut rifle

The herd was hurtung for bulls when then implemented true spike we know this, the numbers for rifle bull permits has been low but 2016 & 2017 were over 20 permits which makes me think 2009-2015 they were harsh on our allowed bull permits to increase the bull population and now currently the permits are at an all time high since true spike was implemented....which makes me believe it is working. There will always be trigger happy hunters killing illegal bulls but the amount of illegal kills, from what ive seen, has declined drastically with the amount of eyes in the woods and fish and wildlife officers patroling the area. Keep true spike until we can sustain a heathy bull to cow ratio and consistantly have the opportunity to apply for 20+ branched bull tags. Things can change for the worse in the next few years with the wolves now in the area and we have no control over that.