Another idea for Washington Muley's: Increased spring bear quota

[hunter399]

I do agree less harvest is needed for mule deer ,but don't like the permit system now.I have said this many times,no Mulley doe hunting at all ,4pt min for mule deer and whitetail in the northeast,numbers will rebound,quality of hunt in a few years with mature animals will be great,and the only way we can support the number of hunters we have now.The only reason the 4pt min went away was hunters complaining,loss of money from people not hunting.Its pretty sad that our wildlife management gets push to the side for money.And the hunters that did complain,now you pay for your tags,and eat tag soup cause you don't even see a spike on public land.
Anyway otc tags stay just need more regs , that protect younger animals,and harvest more mature surplus ,I can say one thing the habitat here in northeast can support a lot more deer and elk ,we just don't have the management we need without the greed to fill there pockets with money.

[npaull]

Bear really aren’t your problem and no I wouldn’t be paying that much to hunt one.   I would love to see some extra spring tags though in places there aren’t any.

Bone I respectfully disagree. I have heard from many deer biologists that black bear are a huge predator - in many places the #1 predator - of deer. Of course, virtually ALL of their predation occurs during just a few weeks in the fawning season. But with their noses and ability to travel, they apparently can have an enormous impact on recruitment of deer in just those few weeks when fawns are dropping.

[npaull]

That's of course not to say that I don't support more lion hunting, and with hounds at that, etc etc

[buglebrush]

I would not be in favor of that much of fee increase. I would be behind an OTC spring bear though.
On a side note why does GMU 113 have no spring season? Griz recovery area??

Yes, but it's a joke.  Somehow Idaho right next door has OTC spring bear with no Grizz issues.  I have plenty of Grizz on Game cams in 113.  Bears kill lots and lots of fawns / calves.  WDFW worships predators, and if they don't radically change their predator management OTC back-country hunting will be a thing of the past for my children.   

[JLS]

I do agree less harvest is needed for mule deer ,but don't like the permit system now.I have said this many times,no Mulley doe hunting at all ,4pt min for mule deer and whitetail in the northeast,numbers will rebound,quality of hunt in a few years with mature animals will be great,and the only way we can support the number of hunters we have now.The only reason the 4pt min went away was hunters complaining,loss of money from people not hunting.Its pretty sad that our wildlife management gets push to the side for money.And the hunters that did complain,now you pay for your tags,and eat tag soup cause you don't even see a spike on public land.
Anyway otc tags stay just need more regs , that protect younger animals,and harvest more mature surplus ,I can say one thing the habitat here in northeast can support a lot more deer and elk ,we just don't have the management we need without the greed to fill there pockets with money.

Antler point restrictions rarely ever achieve their intended result.  There is plenty of data from a number of states showing this.

I agree, the NE corner could support more elk, but I don't think it could support near what many folks think it should.

[hunter399]

I do agree less harvest is needed for mule deer ,but don't like the permit system now.I have said this many times,no Mulley doe hunting at all ,4pt min for mule deer and whitetail in the northeast,numbers will rebound,quality of hunt in a few years with mature animals will be great,and the only way we can support the number of hunters we have now.The only reason the 4pt min went away was hunters complaining,loss of money from people not hunting.Its pretty sad that our wildlife management gets push to the side for money.And the hunters that did complain,now you pay for your tags,and eat tag soup cause you don't even see a spike on public land.
Anyway otc tags stay just need more regs , that protect younger animals,and harvest more mature surplus ,I can say one thing the habitat here in northeast can support a lot more deer and elk ,we just don't have the management we need without the greed to fill there pockets with money.

Antler point restrictions rarely ever achieve their intended result.  There is plenty of data from a number of states showing this.

I agree, the NE corner could support more elk, but I don't think it could support near what many folks think it should.

Everybody's got there own opinion.
I hated the 4pt min at first,but down to the last year it was in effect I could go into a lot of my hunting areas and have no problem seeing 4 or 5 bucks that where 4 pt or better whitetail.Now today it's a joke.So seeing the effects first hand had a real impact on changing my mind on the idea.The mule deer doe should be put on the protected wildlife list,In my opinion what will happen is the wdfw will do nothing in the next 5 years sell as many otc tags as possible,then when numbers are real low it will go to permit only and the cash cow will really open up.All the while if managed correctly now otc could stay for a long time into the future.

[boneaddict]

If there weren’t antler point restrictions in place in the Methow right now, you’d be looking at total annihilation of the herd. 
Nothing to rebuild with.   Nothing


Npaul, I think I wasn’t clear so really we don’t disagree.   I know bear kill deer, but they aren’t out of control like cats and our other predators.  I’m saying that’s not much of a cure to our problem.   Hound hunting and Hunting bear over bait was effective, but not nearly as impactful to the bear population when it was removed as it was to the cat population.   Specifically to the Methow, the bear population isn’t out of control.   I’d love to see some spring tags though.  In fact, have kinda been sitting on my points waiting for it to happen.

[Boss .300 winmag]

Ideas are good to bounce.  I’m seeing a pattern in your ideas though, and that seems to be increased fees.   Are you trying to make it palatable to the money grubbing WDFW or do you have stock in them. 

I think he works for them.

[idahohuntr]

If there weren’t antler point restrictions in place in the Methow right now, you’d be looking at total annihilation of the herd. 
Nothing to rebuild with.   Nothing

This is my observation in much of SE Washington...which is why I would support any sort of hunter harvest restriction...if we stopped or curtailed hunter harvest it would have the most immediate and measurable difference on mule deer herds - especially older age class bucks.  Far more immediate impact than any predator or habitat management action.

[Katmai Guy]

Permit only for 3pt and larger for 2yrs, permit only for 4pt and larger after that and reduce antler less permits by half. 
  Worked for the little naches elk herd over the last 25yrs.
 Hunters are going to have to sacrifice something sometime.

[KFhunter]

spring bear should be OTC and a 2nd fall tag also should be OTC


remove Cougar quotas, increase hound permits, multiple tags available + year around hunting


bounty on coyotes  ( I can get $10 per pike head, why not a $50 coyote bounty too?)


It's going to take some big doings to make an effectual change




several years ago I floated the idea of giving out quality hunt points in exchange for taking predators, not sure what formula I'd use, but 1 mt lion is worth quite a few elk/deer

[JLS]

The ONLY reason for the 3 point minimum APR on mule deer is to provide some level of escapement for bucks.  Without it, there are a number of units that would have almost zero escapement of antlered deer.

Montana had a four point minimum APR in the Tobacco Root Mountains for a number of years.  They found it had zero affect on growing bigger deer.  Illegal harvest, either intentional or accidental, will always be a significant factor in APR units.  In addition, you are simply placing increased pressure on the age class of deer that are legal.

If you want to have meaningful impact on recruitment of older age class deer, you HAVE to provide more escapement.  This comes through restricted access, shorter seasons, reduced hunter numbers, or a combination thereof.  There is no free lunch.

Montana has instituted an unlimited permit system in many western mule deer districts.  You must select it as your first choice, and you are guaranteed your permit and you are limited to hunting only that district for mule deer.  I don't know what they are seeing as a result of this, but that in and of itself would be a good step in the right direction.

[JLS]

bounty on coyotes  ( I can get $10 per pike head, why not a $50 coyote bounty too?)

Mule deer aren't an ESA species, yet.

[KFhunter]

They're giving bounties on wolves in Idaho, albeit indirectly.  I don't need a direct bounty from WDFW, but if mule deer groups want to help they could do something like the co-op in Idaho.

Maybe I shouldn't use the word "bounty" and substitute incentive instead. 


found it, this is what I'm talking about when I say bounty

https://www.foundationforwildlifemanagement.org/

[buglebrush]

"If you want to have meaningful impact on recruitment of older age class deer, you HAVE to provide more escapement.  This comes through restricted access, shorter seasons, reduced hunter numbers, or a combination thereof.  There is no free lunch."

How about through aggressive predator, especially lion, reduction?  How about 4x minimum?  Why won't you accept these as viable options?  If the only tactics we bring to the table is the elimination of hunter opportunity, then we and our sport is doomed.