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[SWHUNTER]

 

[robodad]

Not by the proposed definition !!

[robodad]

"Exposed to the weather" means the percussion cap or the
frizzen must be visible and not capable of being covered or closed
by an integral part of the weapon proper.

That is the proposed definition so your ML would not be legal, It would be legal now if there was a small hole drilled into that "Hood" that covers the nipple !!

[robodad]

I don't have any experience with that particular ML and without physically seeing how it is assembled I cannot give you a definitive answer but from the photos you posted it appears to me that the "Hole" you circled is a slot for the wrench to aid in the removal of the breach plug and not an "exposure to the elements" type hole, but I could be wrong about that, maybe someone that has experience with that one will pipe up and say for sure !!!

[jackelope]

i think it's exposed to be legal, but you're gonna need to see about changing out the 209 primer ignition system too...thats a no-no.

[robodad]

i think it's exposed to be legal, but you're gonna need to see about changing out the 209 primer ignition system too...thats a no-no.






Ill have to check into that jackelope.Thanks. Curious, can you hunt bear with this setup?

I think that if you hunt any big game with a ML it has to meet ML requirements in the game laws as if you were hunting deer or elk !!

[robodad]

Thats interesting. Does'nt make much sense though.

Sense ??

The only difference I see is that you can use a .40 cal projectile for deer and any other big game must use .50 cal or larger !!

[jackelope]

your gun is legal for bears if it meets the other requirements...not 209 and exposed to the elements as long as it's a .50 cal.

[robodad]

Page 67 of your game regs spells out everything you want to know as far as ML equipment regulations which apply to all big game species !!

[ABugg]

Your set-up is legal during the modern season for any species or bear outside the muzzle season, but to be legal for the muzzle loader season you have to remove the 209 plug.  Otherwise, it appears that the nipple will be exposed and legal; it just can't be enclosed. 

[billythekidrock]

Your set-up is legal during the modern season for any species or bear outside the muzzle season, but to be legal for the muzzle loader season you have to remove the 209 plug.  Otherwise, it appears that the nipple will be exposed and legal; it just can't be enclosed. 

You might want to verify that.

We had a thread here before and the response from F&W is that a ML must meet the ML requirements for all game animals including bear.

[ABugg]

I agree; best to verify, but the new WAC includes an exception that waives the requirements on ignition and open sights for using a ML during a MF season.

[robodad]

I have to agree with you jackelope. I don't see where the regs say that the muzzle loader requirments apply to all big game.

Did you read page 67 in the 08 hunting regs ?? if so then you saw the muzzleloader regulations. Look at (c) that is only a special provision for big game other then deer and it is in addition to the rules stated in (a) I don't know how it could be more clear !! 

If you hunt any big game with a ML you need to follow those regulations, it may change a bit but for now that is what it is.

[billythekidrock]

Maybe someone can clarify again, but I swear the ruling was something like this...go to page ?? and read...then go to page // and read. And that the outcome was a ML has to meet the requirements for all big game. I was interested as I wanted a new inline (209) ML for bears and use in firearm restricted areas. I was told by a gamey that a 209 was NOT legal in a firearm restricted area during modern firearm. 

[robodad]

Maybe someone can clarify again, but I swear the ruling was something like this...go to page ?? and read...then go to page // and read. And that the outcome was a ML has to meet the requirements for all big game. I was interested as I wanted a new inline (209) ML for bears and use in firearm restricted areas. I was told by a gamey that a 209 was NOT legal in a firearm restricted area during modern firearm. 

No matter where you look it will say "Hunters may use any lawful big game firearm, archery, or muzzleloader equipment.....NO matter what season

And here is the definition of lawfull muzzleloader equipment:

(1) It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm during muzzleloading seasons which does not meet the following specification for a muzzleloader. A muzzleloading firearm is loaded from the muzzle and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in muzzleloading firearms. A muzzleloading firearm has a single or double barrel of at least 20 inches, rifled or smooth-bored. Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion using original style percussion caps that fit on the nipple and are exposed to the elements. Shot shell and 209 primers are not legal.

     (2) Sights must be open, peep or of other open sight design. Fiber optic sights are legal. Telescopic sights or sights containing glass are prohibited. It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting. Except hunters with disabilities who meet the definition of being visually impaired in WAC 232-12-828 may receive a special use permit that would allow the use of scopes or other visual aids. A disabled hunter permit holder in possession of a special use permit that allows the use of a scope or visual aid may hunt game birds or game animals during muzzleloader seasons.

     (3) A muzzleloading firearm used for deer must fire a single, nonjacketed lead projectile of nominal 40 caliber or larger, except that buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smoothbore of 60 caliber or larger.

     (4) A muzzleloading firearm used for all other big game must fire a single, nonjacketed lead projectile of nominal 50 caliber or larger, or fire a single, nonjacketed lead projectile of at least 170 grains.

     (5) This section shall not apply to the carrying of a handgun designed to be charged with black powder only.

     (6) This section shall not apply to persons lawfully hunting game birds with a shotgun.

     (7) Only one barrel of a double barrel muzzleloader may be loaded with powder or bullet or capped at any one time while hunting in a muzzleloading season except in specified firearm restricted areas.

[billythekidrock]

That's what I thought.
I wonder how many guys use 209's for bear?

[billythekidrock]

Like I said before, I don't know much about MLs,but what is so bad about a 209.

Too modern or reliable would be my guess? 

[dawhunt]

When your hunting the bolt would be cocked and the gun on safe, therefore it would be open to the elements and you need to get rid of the 209 ignition.You don't want to be cocking your gun while a deer or ?? is standing there looking at you
Bob

[ABugg]

"(5) Muzzleloading firearms used during a modern firearm season are
not required to meet ignition, sight, or double barrel restrictions.
1/20/09 11:23 AM [ 4 ] OTS-2145.1..." 

This is a proposed change to the current regs, it will likely be approved for the 2009+ seasons.

You can find a link back on the Muzzleloader Hunting page from this site.  Scroll down until you see the thread; the link is from the first post.

[lokidog]

It's already set up so that you can use a scope on a ML during modern season.

[HntnFsh]

When your hunting the bolt would be cocked and the gun on safe, therefore it would be open to the elements and you need to get rid of the 209 ignition.You don't want to be cocking your gun while a deer or ?? is standing there looking at you
Bob

Your right.In the top pick the bolt is cocked and the cap would be exposed to the elements.
In the pick where he drew the yellow circle it is in the fired position.So it doesnt matter.

[robodad]

When your hunting the bolt would be cocked and the gun on safe, therefore it would be open to the elements and you need to get rid of the 209 ignition.You don't want to be cocking your gun while a deer or ?? is standing there looking at you
Bob

Your right.In the top pick the bolt is cocked and the cap would be exposed to the elements.
In the pick where he drew the yellow circle it is in the fired position.So it doesnt matter.

So your saying the rules should say that the cap needs to be exposed to the elements only when your ready to fire ?? 

[dawhunt]

I'm saying the gun will be cocked and ready and on safe when hunting and that the cap would be exposed to the elements !!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats the law open to the elements.
what don't you understand about that ?

When the gun is in your car the cap MUST be removed !!!!!!!!!!!! or its a big TICKET

Bob

[robodad]

I'm saying the gun will be cocked and ready and on safe when hunting and that the cap would be exposed to the elements !!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats the law open to the elements.
what don't you understand about that ?

When the gun is in your car the cap MUST be removed !!!!!!!!!!!! or its a big TICKET

Bob

What I don't understand is when the rules state that the nipple has to be "Exposed to the elements", Does that mean only at the time you are ready to fire and all other times (like walking down a trail) the nipple and cap can be covered ?? Or does that mean the nipple weather there is a cap on it or not has to be "Exposed to the elements" at all times (In the car, walking down the trail, climbing a tree, etc....?? Just trying to clarify !!

[CP]

The new wording (see below) prohibits any weapon that is capable of covering the cap.  I take that to mean any time, ready to fire or not, if the cap can be covered by a part of the weapon it is not legal.



Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion using original style percussion caps that fit on the nipple and are exposed to the weather.  "Exposed to the weather" means the percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible and not capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper.

[Shannon]

We did have this discussion a few years ago. I was told by a F & W employee that I only had to follow the restrictions during muzzle loader seasons and that it did not apply during modern rifle seasons. I wrote her name down in my 2007 regs and still have it somewhere. I can't remember who it was but a member on here basically said I was a *censored* and wrong and would get a ticket if caught. I just let it go and hunted during modern with my scoped muzzle loader. I have talked to local game wardens and that was there interpretation also. I am not going to keep calling WDFW until I find someone that says it is illegal. The first sentence of the muzz regulations says that it has to comply during muzzle loader season and I interpret that I can throw the rest out the window when I am hunting during modern season. It only makes sense to me. If I want to make the sport more challenging by limiting the effectiveness of my weapon during modern why would that be illegal? What would be next, outlawing archery during modern seasons?

[dawhunt]

I'm saying the gun will be cocked and ready and on safe when hunting and that the cap would be exposed to the elements !!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats the law open to the elements.
what don't you understand about that ?

When the gun is in your car the cap MUST be removed !!!!!!!!!!!! or its a big TICKET

Bob

What I don't understand is when the rules state that the nipple has to be "Exposed to the elements", Does that mean only at the time you are ready to fire and all other times (like walking down a trail) the nipple and cap can be covered ?? Or does that mean the nipple weather there is a cap on it or not has to be "Exposed to the elements" at all times (In the car, walking down the trail, climbing a tree, etc....?? Just trying to clarify !!

When the gun is loaded and capped it must be open to the elements !!!!!!!! even if your going to the bathroom !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob

[ABugg]

The key words are "...an integral part of the weapon proper."  This means the cap cannot be enclosed by the bolt or other at anytime.  It doesn't mean the weapon is legal if you hunt with the bolt open, if when you close the bolt the cap is enlcosed.  The easiest test is that if you can see the cap when the bolt or action is closed then it is probably legal; I cannot think of any exceptions.  This doesn't say anything about after market covers etc...so these would be legal.