A rifle that won't shoot- Update

[GBoyd]

I recently bought a used Rossi single shot rifle in 243. They don't have a reputation for accuracy, but I expected something around 3 MOA. That would be plenty accurate because I wanted it for a lightweight hunting rifle out to a maximum range of 200 yards

I mounted a decent 3-9x40 and took a shot at 30 yards to make sure I was on paper. When I started shooting at 150 yards, I was really disappointed. I shot a few three round groups and they were all about 20 inches across. I've never encountered a gun this bad and I don't know what to do about it. I've only tried it with Core-Lokts and I haven't tried a copper cleaner, but I can't imagine those things would make enough of a difference.

Any advice for things to try to get hunting accuracy out of this rifle? I really like how handy it is, so I'd be willing to put a bit of money into it.
 
And if nothing works, what do I do with it? I can't sell a guy a rifle that won't shoot.

[jay.sharkbait]

Do you know if the rifle was broken in properly?

[bobcat]

Are you sure the scope isn't the issue?

[Bill W]

you got something wrong and it's probably not the rifle unless you are seeing keyhole hits. 

[Bofire]

20 inch groups, there is something serious wrong with the gun, maybe safe but not a shooter. for the value of that gun it does not warrant money invested. Let it go. unless you have not checked the obvious, loose screws, etc.
just let it go
Carl

[jasnt]

Have you measured the twist?

[762Armo]

Are you sure the scope isn't the issue?

I'm willing to bet the issue is scope related.

[Alchase]

I would bring it back down to 100 yards, check your rings and scope are solid. Then try different ammo. If the results are the same with a few different ammo types. You just narrowed it down to the rifle itself.

[brew]

if your base and rings are solid then there is no way its  the ammo....any crappy factory ammo wont "group" at 20" at 100 yards....scope problem

[lewy]

I also find it hard to believe that the rifle is the problem

[buglebuster]

I ageee that its probably the scope

[Bill W]

maybe he's shooting offhand.

[ellensburgpo]

Scope or mounts

[opdinkslayer]

maybe he's shooting offhand.

was thinking that myself when i read the op

[JimmyHoffa]

if your base and rings are solid then there is no way its  the ammo....any crappy factory ammo wont "group" at 20" at 100 yards....scope problem

I don't know.  I have done a scope swap and had one rifle shoot great with both scopes at any range and the other wouldn't stay on the 2'x2' cardboard at 50 yds.

[hunter399]

If you can't sell it , you can always give it me.

Try a different scope off another rifle if you have too.

[Alchase]

if your base and rings are solid then there is no way its  the ammo....any crappy factory ammo wont "group" at 20" at 100 yards....scope problem

I don't know.  I have done a scope swap and had one rifle shoot great with both scopes at any range and the other wouldn't stay on the 2'x2' cardboard at 50 yds.

He said he was shooting at 150 yds.
I prefer to be methodical about troubleshooting issues like this. If the scope had no issues in the past, rings and mounts would be my first check. Ammo would be the next cheapest to check and would narrow it down to either the "decent scope" he used or the rifle, not likely, but can happen.
I have had way more issues where a rifle does not like certain ammo then a bad scope.
Just never 20 inches at 150 yds kind of problems, LOL

Assuming he is shooting from a rest, not offhand as Bill W asked. If he is shooting offhand, that would be consistent with about 90% of all range shooters I have seen over the years. 

[Dan-o]

If it has iron sights I'd consider taking the scope off and shooting iron sights at 50 yards. 

Tough to believe a rifle would group like that. 

I would check the crown. 

[GBoyd]

Thanks for all the input guys.

Yeah, I was shooting off sandbags.

So the scope: it's a Leupold VX-2 3-9x40. I had it on my main hunting rifle for a few years and it worked fine. I took it off when I upgraded and have had it in storage until now. I doubt there's anything wrong with it. I have it mounted with Vortex rings that came with the gun. I don't see any problems with them. I skipped the Loktite, but used a torque wrench to get the right pressure on all the screws. It seems most people think the problem is in this area, so I'll definitely experiment here before writing the gun off entirely.

The crown and bore: looks fine to me. You can probably tell I don't know a ton about rifles, but I don't see any problems. The rifling is strong and easy to see. There are no weird marks or damage around the crown. Is there something else specific I should be looking for here?

[Jonathan_S]

Do you know if the rifle was broken in properly?

 

Sounds like an absolute piece of junk if the break action is locking up tight and the scope is good. Only other thing possibly worth trying is a few shots from a fresh box of ammunition just on the off chance there is something weird there. Doesn’t really make sense

[Biggerhammer]

I would bet a unsuspecting buddy what the rifle is worth, that he can't shoot it better than you. Take the cash and walk away. But that's just me.

[Blacktail Sniper]

Did you check the base screws and make sure they were tight before installing the rings?

How are you resting the rifle on the sandbags, forearm or barrel?

What grain bullet are you shooting? 

Found this, sounds like a lot of what you are experiencing:

http://ammosmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=6597.0

[jasnt]

I've seen this before in a break action 243, trying to shoot 100 gr bullets from a 1:14 twist. Bullets tumbled to the target. Could hardly keep it on paper at a hundred yards.  Measure your twist. It's simple and checks one more thing off the list. Jme

[Bill W]

push a pure lead bullet down the barrel and mike it.  You may have the wrong diameter bore on your rifle. But if this was the case you would have keyholed bullets.  Once you rule out the wrong sized bore/bullets you can work on the other items.  You could chronograph your ammo just to see if it puts out close to factory ballistics.  The bedding would have to be grossly wrong.... or it could be scope/mounts broken or loose.

[GBoyd]

Did you check the base screws and make sure they were tight before installing the rings?

How are you resting the rifle on the sandbags, forearm or barrel?

What grain bullet are you shooting? 

Found this, sounds like a lot of what you are experiencing:

http://ammosmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=6597.0

Thanks for that link! I was shooting 100 grain Core-Lokts. I'm hopeful now that switching to a lighter bullet might do the trick.

[Calvin Rayborn]

Are you sure the scope isn't the issue?

I'm willing to bet the issue is scope related.

[GBoyd]

I've been out shooting twice since the last time I wrote, with no good news to report. For the first trip, all I did was defoul the barrel and buy some 80 grain ammo. Neither of those seemed to make a difference.

So, I went to the gun store with another scope I had lying around and bought a new set of rings. I even had the owner there mount it for me to be sure that the problem wasn't with how I mounted it. I took it out again this afternoon and shot group sizes identical to the first day- more than 12 inches at 100 yards.

Any suggestions for other things I can try? There's a lot of talk about these on other forums, but they're mainly focused on taking them from 4 inch groups down to 2 inch groups. It doesn't seem that there's many that do this poorly.

[Bob33]

If you have definitively ruled out the scope and the ammunition and the shooter, then it's time to move on and sell it.

[bobcat]

I'm kind of wondering how the crown looks on that rifle?

[j_h_nimrod]

How tight is the lockup and could the fore grip be putting pressure on the barrel when you are breaking it open and then loading it. The pins where the barrel and action break are a notorious issue with Ruger #1s and many people replace them with an oversized, custom pin. Crown would be my next thought as well.

Another thought, how are you shooting this?  In a lead sled, vise, off a rest. Are you resting back by the action or out toward the barrel?

[Hemlock]

One more thing to check is the trigger. Even if you think it feels OK, it may not be consistent. As an example, I bought a 340 Weatherby and after 10 hard kicking shots a 50 yard target I couldn't hold a consistent group. Maybe that's why I got it so cheap. I dry fired the trigger and found a lot of creep and a trigger gauge showed a heave pull. Fortunately this model has an adjustable trigger. I tore it down, cleaned and adjusted the trigger and went back to the range and it shot one inch groups at 100 yards all day long. Well, for as long as I could stand the recoil. 

[lord grizzly]

Sounds like the thing is either completely shot out or just a piece of crap. I suppose you could have a smith run a bore scope down it and confirm this but really this thing probably isn’t worth the effort. Hang it on the wall with a coyote pelt or something and call it a decoration. You’ll get more enjoyment out of it that way then shooing I’d imagine

[Jonathan_S]

 

[Slenk]

Well I have read all the guesses on this thread.
I have a few things that may help that are not guesses.
First of all just a little history on me. I am 77 years old .
I have been shooting break action single shot rifles for a lot of years.
H&R, NEF, Savage & Rossi.
You can not get good groups resting the forearm or barrel on sandbags or a rest.
You need to rest behind the hinge point ,or action.
Also remove the forearm and put a O-ring around the stud that the screw goes into then replace forearm. hope some of this helps someone.

[jackelope]

If you have definitively ruled out the scope and the ammunition and the shooter, then it's time to move on and sell it.

Sounds like a cull to me. Not sure I'd want to sell it in good faith.
My buddy's kid has one and it shoots reasonably well. He's killed a few bucks with it.

[bobcat]

 

I couldn't sell a gun that shoots 12 inch "groups." Give it away, maybe.

[hunter399]

I couldn't sell a gun that shoots 12 inch "groups." Give it away, maybe.

I called it first ,reply 15,
My offer still stands on pm me anytime.

[bearpaw]

For the first trip, all I did was defoul the barrel and buy some 80 grain ammo. Neither of those seemed to make a difference.

If you have ruled everything else out mounts, scope, hinge pin, and barrel twist, and you have other guns that shoot well by shooting them the same way you are shooting this gun then it sounds like either the rifling is worn out or fouled. If it's fouled with copper then defouling can be tough to do. For a couple years I had a gun that I thought I had defouled but I wasn't really getting the job done, I took it to a gunsmith and he pointed out that he could see copper fouling, I bought some copper cleaner and used it aggressively over a couple day period until I could let the gun sit wet with cleaner in the barrel for several hours and when I ran a patch through it came out perfectly clean with no blue discoloration. The group that gun shoots tighened up to 30% of what it had been shooting.

[N7XW]

For the first trip, all I did was defoul the barrel and buy some 80 grain ammo. Neither of those seemed to make a difference.

If you have ruled everything else out mounts, scope, hinge pin, and barrel twist, and you have other guns that shoot well by shooting them the same way you are shooting this gun then it sounds like either the rifling is worn out or fouled. If it's fouled with copper then defouling can be tough to do. For a couple years I had a gun that I thought I had defouled but I wasn't really getting the job done, I took it to a gunsmith and he pointed out that he could see copper fouling, I bought some copper cleaner and used it aggressively over a couple day period until I could let the gun sit wet with cleaner in the barrel for several hours and when I ran a patch through it came out perfectly clean with no blue discoloration. The group that gun shoots tighened up to 30% of what it had been shooting.

[Fl0und3rz]

Well I have read all the guesses on this thread.
I have a few things that may help that are not guesses.
First of all just a little history on me. I am 77 years old .
I have been shooting break action single shot rifles for a lot of years.
H&R, NEF, Savage & Rossi.
You can not get good groups resting the forearm or barrel on sandbags or a rest.
You need to rest behind the hinge point ,or action.
Also remove the forearm and put a O-ring around the stud that the screw goes into then replace forearm. hope some of this helps someone.

Seems like sage advice here.  I wouldn't give up on it yet, until after the above is tried.

[Alchase]

 

Break action rifles and shotguns look great up on the wall with the breach open!

[jackelope]

Break action rifles and shotguns look great up on the wall with the breach open!

I've got a couple that say they're good for uses other than that.

[Fl0und3rz]

I am sure.  I think the point is that they are different animals than your standard bolt gun or AR rifle, as far as shooting technique and tribal knowledge.

You see the same thing with people saying a spring piston air rifle won't shoot well.  Other shooters, applying different skills and knowledge, get different results. 

[Alchase]

Break action rifles and shotguns look great up on the wall with the breach open!

I've got a couple that say they're good for uses other than that.

Did not mean to imply breaks actions can't shoot, just that they really do look great as wall art.

 

[Special T]

I say keep at it. There is lots of great information out there via you tube, and other online forums. If it were me I'd keep at it. The kind of group you are talking about  has to be something gunsmithing related.

I had a well loved firearm that jammed, didn't shoot well, and I didn't have much invested in. I learned a bunch by watching as many FYI videos as I could. Time, sandpaper and cleaning did a bunch to improve the weapon AND my understanding of how firearms work...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[GBoyd]

Thanks guys, this forum is great.

Slenk, I was shooting using shooting sticks on the forearm. I'll definitely try again with the rest behind the hinge. It's also easy enough to add the O-ring like you suggest. I'm not going to turn down any possible fixes that are that cheap. If single shots are fussy about rests, I can also try a few groups offhand to see if that helps things.

Bearpaw, thanks for the suggestion to do a more thorough defouling. I'll admit that I still had blue on the patches after my first attempt. I'll get it clean before going back out to the range.

If none of those things get the rifle Minute of Deer, I'll probably call it quits. Working on the crown, hinge, or other real gunsmithing just doesn't seem worth it for this quality of rifle. I'd be too embarrassed to sell it to anyone, but maybe I'll contact the store I bought it from. If I'd be too embarrassed to sell it, maybe they'll feel the same way.

[W_Ellison2011]

or... rebarrel it lol!