Long range for beginners

[Oh Mah]

Thought I would share a little bit of what I found on transonic region flight.

Transonic Ballistics Effects Explained by Bryan Litz
What happens when the bullet slows to transonic speed, i.e. when the bullet slows to about 1340 feet per second? It is getting close to the speed of sound, close to the sound barrier. That is a bad place to fly for anything. In particular, for bullets that are spin-stabilized, what the sound barrier does to a bullet (as it flies near Mach 1) is that it has a de-stabilizing effect. The center of pressure moves forward, and the over-turning moment on the bullet gets greater. You must then ask: “Is your bullet going to have enough gyroscopic stability to overcome the increasing dynamic instability that’s experienced at transonic speed?”

Some bullets do this better than others. Typically bullets that are shorter and have shallow boat-tail angles will track better through the transonic range. On the contrary, bullets that are longer… can experience a greater range of pitching and yawing in the transonic range that will depress their ballistic coefficients at that speed to greater or lesser extents depending on the exact conditions of the day. That makes it very hard to predict your trajectory for bullets like that through that speed range.

When you look at transonic effects on stability, you’re looking at reasons to maybe have a super-fast twist rate to stabilize your bullets, because you’re actually getting better performance — you’re getting less drag and more BC from your bullets if they are spinning with a more rigid axis through the transonic flight range because they’ll be experiencing less pitching and yawing in their flight.

  Agree 100 percent.A lot happens to everything that drops below the speed of sound,It is quite violent in fact.Bullets start tumbling.

[jasnt]

Probably due to using a G1 profile for a G7 shape, you have to adjust the BC being used as velocity changes to get a good matching curve that follows the actual drag curve.

that makes perfect sence.

[Oh Mah]

https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-transonic-region/


Here's a pretty good read on it.   

[jasnt]

https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-transonic-region/


Here's a pretty good read on it.   

I did read that article aswell. Found a little more at lrhm forum.  From my expirence the other day at 1550 I don't believe my bullets will stay stable through the transonic region. I'll continue to push it till it goes south to find my invisible wall range.

With all the talented lr guys here I thought this would stir up a little more talk about the subject.

[yorketransport]

One of my favorite LR guns is a Striker in 284 Winchester. Shooting a 168gr Berger VLD @ 2760fps from the 19", 1-9" twist barrel I get good results out to about 1300 yards. At that point I'm in the high 1200fps range depending on conditions. Much past that and things just come off the rails. I'll get crazy errant shots, groups will double in size and I basically admit defeat.

When I had the 270 AR barrel up and running I shot the 135gr SMK @ 263fps from a 1-9" twist barrel. That gun was a realistic 1/2 MOA gun depending on the day (I always struggle to shoot ARs well). That load would drop down to about 1200fps at 900 yards or so depending on conditions. At 950 yards, all of the data from the ballistic apps was worthless even if calculated with a G7 BC. I had to model a custom drag curve for anything beyond 900 yards. I didn't like that, so I just spent a day shooting at ranges out to 1220 yards to get my actual drops and just gave on the ballistic apps for that gun.

Last example is pretty much any 338 shooting a 300gr OTM. This has held true in multiple 338 Edge rifles, the 338/375 Ruger rifle and pistol and the 338 SnipeTac rifle and pistol. The 300gr OTM just seems to perform well for me when going transonic. If I use a G7 BC, the data typically tracks very well even into subsonic flight. I'll still get the occasional odd shot in the 1200-1100fps range that just has a mind of it's own but for the most part the data is good. I've had very good luck with the 304gr Hammer Hunters as well in the same velocity range. I've had terrible luck with the Cutting Edge bullets though. With those I think its an issue with being under stabilized. Those bullets just seem to fall out of the sky sometimes.

[jasnt]

Thank you yoke for that info.  My 300wm will need a new barrel soon and I've been thinking about re-barreling to 338rum.  My goal is one mile.    Other than the 338wm are there any of the 338's that will feed through my mag(3.5") and not need to swap out my bolt? Howa/vanguard action.  Suppose I could go single feed but would rather not do so. What kind of mods would need done to my action todo this and if I'm going that far should I go lapua mag?

[yorketransport]

Thank you yoke for that info.  My 300wm will need a new barrel soon and I've been thinking about re-barreling to 338rum.  My goal is one mile.    Other than the 338wm are there any of the 338's that will feed through my mag(3.5") and not need to swap out my bolt? Howa/vanguard action.

I absolutely love the 338/375 Ruger. It duplicates 340 Weatherby and 330 Dakota performance and comes within 100fps of the 338 RUM. I shoot mostly 250gr bullets (SMK, Berger and Hornady HPBT) for targets and the 260gr Hammer Hunter for hunting. So far I've had 4 barrels in this chambering, 18", 22", 24" and 26" and they've all performed incredibly well. I shot out the 24" barrel after just short of 1500 rounds, sold the 22" and 26" barrels and still have the 18" barrel on my beloved Striker pistol which has close to 900 shots through it now. Total I've probably shot close to 3000 rounds through my various 338/3375 Rugers.

The 18" barrel gets 2650fps with 250gr bullet and a "moderate" load of H4350. The same load in the 26" barrel was just over 2800fps. I get 2745fps with H100-v and a 250gr bullet from the 18" barrel but accuracy isn't as good. You can easily get a 225gr bullet moving over 3000 fps from a 24" barrel if you want fast and flat. I got the 225 TTSX well into the 2800fps range from the 18" barrel.

I've never understood why the 338/375 Ruger hasn't been more popular. It runs circles around 33 Nosler using the same OAL and cheaper brass.

[Magnum_Willys]

Thank you yoke for that info.  My 300wm will need a new barrel soon and I've been thinking about re-barreling to 338rum.  My goal is one mile.    Other than the 338wm are there any of the 338's that will feed through my mag(3.5") and not need to swap out my bolt? Howa/vanguard action.

I've never understood why the 338/375 Ruger hasn't been more popular. It runs circles around 33 Nosler using the same OAL and cheaper brass.

I remember seeing a noted gunsmith said he had over a 1000 pieces of 338 norma and 338 lapua brass on hand but would still choose the 338/375 Ruger as his goto 338 choice. 

[jasnt]

Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport

[yorketransport]

Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport

Yes, it's a simple one pass operation. I take 375 Ruger cases and run them into a 338 RCM die that's been adjusted to just kiss the shoulder. If I need to full length size the cases I just run them into a 375 Ruger FL die. I turn my necks just enough to clean them up, but my reamer cuts a no turn chamber.

[jasnt]

Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport

Yes, it's a simple one pass operation. I take 375 Ruger cases and run them into a 338 RCM die that's been adjusted to just kiss the shoulder. If I need to full length size the cases I just run them into a 375 Ruger FL die. I turn my necks just enough to clean them up, but my reamer cuts a no turn chamber.

the more I read about this cartrage the more I like it. And no mods to my action is a plus, should run in my dbl just fine.    Wonder what it would do threw a 28-30" tube. 

[Swiftkid]

This is the first big block of text I’ve read off this forum in about 4 years, glad I got lucky and caught a gem. Simply great advice....just shoot.

My favorite bit of advise to give new shooters:

Buy the best equipment in your price range, and just go shoot at stuff.

It's easy to get caught up in all the gear and gadgets, always chasing the next "must have" trinket. There's no need for a $2K scope, $3K rifle and custom loaded ultra precise ammo. You can head out with an average factory rifle, with a decent scope ($300-500) and good factory ammo and hit stuff at 1000 yards with very little effort.

Most of the time when I go shooting, I don't even bother with atmospheric conditions. I get a range, an elevation, a wild guess on the wind and I pull the trigger. The most amazing part of it, is that I have pretty darn good luck actually hitting stuff doing this. I learn something from every shot that I take. Instead of going back and fiddling with my adjustments or changing inputs in the ballistic calculator when I miss, I go over everything I've learned from previous shots and just send another round to see where it ends up.

Ballistic calculators are constantly wrong when it comes to wind calls. Just because you have a 3-4 mph right to left wind at your position doesn't mean diddly at a target that's 1700 yards and two valleys away. You can't accurately measure the wind at the target, up drafts, down drafts, cross winds, the changes in humidity if you're shooting over water, or the effect your man bun has on the airflow at your muzzle.

One of the best shots I've ever made which was both witnessed and recorded was a cold bore shot at a 30" rock at exactly 2600 yards. The guy I was with is obsessed with collecting data and punching numbers into his Kestrel. While he was busy twirling the Kestrel around like an Olympic ribbon dancer and getting readings, I got a range, figured my drops and decided that the wind would probably just counter my adjustment for coriolis and held dead on. Sure enough it was a solid hit. After my buddy was done factoring in the pressure changes caused by the sneeze of a Labradoodle 32 miles away he fired a shot and went over and to the right of the rock by about 6 feet with his rifle. He spent the next 5 minutes changing inputs to explain why he missed instead of just lobbing another shot over there.

Just go shoot stuff and learn something from each shot.

[jasnt]

Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport

Yes, it's a simple one pass operation. I take 375 Ruger cases and run them into a 338 RCM die that's been adjusted to just kiss the shoulder. If I need to full length size the cases I just run them into a 375 Ruger FL die. I turn my necks just enough to clean them up, but my reamer cuts a no turn chamber.

can you share the specs of your reamer?

[Oh Mah]

Another piece of advice.
If you're interested in shooting long range get proficient in the shorter ranges first.Move out slowly.
If you're not consistent at short range yet you will not be at long ranges by even more of a margin.
If you want to be very good at long range be hard on yourself.Be accountable for every shot you make.If you are off its you not the wind,the other shooter to your side or whatever excuses are being used these days. 

Anybody and everybody can be a long range shooter,If the time and effort are put in to it.Even a blind man,I have seen it.With the right equipment.

[jasnt]

I would agree. If you can't shoot well at short range <500 than you shouldn't shoot farther.  But I've gotten many folks interested by dialing in my rifle and handing them a mag. The smile on a persons face after ringing steel the first time at almost half a mile is price less.  I don't think anyone can do it though. It takes a special person to dedicate enough time to the sport to get proficient. Most folks won't put in the time or $$. It's a passion not a hobby imo.