After Libs Blame West Coast Fires on Global Warming, Forester Speaks out

[CAMPMEAT]

I have a friend on the Kelly Mountain fire driving a water truck........he's making some serious money as is the owner of the company with the excavators, trucks, lowboys, dozers etc..

[WAcoyotehunter]

forest service to be reduced to only what they were originally created for, to fight forest fires.

So, where does that leave us?

Realistically I doubt that will happen! I would be happy to see more logging rather than letting all that good timber burn! Sure, any land with growth can burn, but there is a much better chance of controlling a fire where there are breaks in the dense forest, and logging makes breaks in the forests. Having more logging will keep more dollars and jobs in the US rather than buying Canadian lumber and leave much better economies in rural towns!

More vegetation for animals to feed on also

  My best hunting is on private lands that are regularly logged and thinned every 10 years or so. The USFS lands would support so much more wildlife if so many acres weren't dead on the forest floor caused by all the overaged timber.

I've had quite a bit of success hunting Harvest units also, but that doesn't mean we should Harvest everything out there. The animals we hunt aren't the only ones that deserve a place to live in the woods

Nobody's pushing for logging everything out there.  Stop coming up with false calamities to muddy the issues.  Without a return to logging areas that we used to log, wildlife will suffer immensely; and frankly must of us don't love wolves and grizzlies like you do.  What's wrong with managing for healthy ungulate populations for a change?  It'll actually improve long-term predator populations as well.

What areas did we "used to log"??  Pretty much EVERYTHING, which has helped get us into this problem.  Managing for healthy ungulate populations is great- but you can't just manage for ungulates.  You do recognize that there are more nongame species than just wolves and grizzlies right??? 

I think it's remarkable that this thread has made it 3 pages and no one has mentioned prescribed fire as being a possible solution.

I think it's remarkable a person would actually favor burning timber up rather than responsible logging practices.  I'm sure you favor the no spring bear in 113, right?  It's a joke to manage that whole area based on the local grizzlies greatly to the detriment if moose, elk, and deer.   Besides, Idaho's liberal predator Management sure have hurt the grizzly population in the rest of the Selkirks.  Don't pretend that WDFW'S management is isn't predicated on predators first and foremost.

Don't assume to know what I think or believe (it's pretty clear you have no idea). I don't know why you're hung up on G bears, but I support a spring B bear season and I support responsible logging practices.  I logged my property and I spent ten years on the board for the Forestry Coalition trying to get the CNF to increase logging yield from 30mbf to 80mbf...

Prescribed fire, in the right areas, would absolutely help reduce wildfire severity and wouldn't burn up much timber.  We should be setting fires in September to get low fuels burned off and let the weather put them out. 

We are in this situation for several reasons:
1) we stomped out every fire for the last 100 years and loaded up fuels
2) we logged too much in the early 1900's and created unnatural, overstocked forest
3) we don't log enough now to reduce fuels
4) we have a changing climate that heats up earlier in the summer
 

The "Graze it, Log it, or watch it burn" mantra is a simple (stupid) advertising scheme that doesn't help us get to healthy, productive forests. 

[WAcoyotehunter]

Prescribed burns, lol.
Yea they prolly can’t hurt, and may actually help if done in the proper spot......problem is no one one knows where lightning is going to strike next. Last year the FS did some burning up the 5900 rd.......in 6-7 spots along the road, all less than 50yard diameter, what good is that going to do?

I am a firm believer the FS likes to burn for the sake of saying they are actually doing something. Burning off 1-100 acres has little effect on summer wildfires.

   great points...

How about some prescribed logging that makes money rather than costing money! 

That's true- the small scale burns mostly a waste of time and the FS is WAY too cautious with their fires. The legal risk of a fire escaping is incredibly high.

You have trashed NEWFC on here several times in the past.  I strongly recommend you listen in on some of those meetings and see what they are trying to do with forest management.   

[Doublelunger]

Do you really want to know why the fires are so big these days? It's all about the money.
Millions of dollars go to the FS,DNR,BLM, and private FF agencies. It's all about "use it or lose it" funding. Thousands of employees in these organizations would not be making any money if fires were put out early.

Take a look at the below screen shot from the Cougar creek fire dated 8-7-18. Notice the yellow line. Some will argue this, but in reality, everything inside this line has already been decided by the FS to "let it burn" instead of trying to get it put out early. Notice how close that line is to the town of Ardenvoir. Why?
Once the fire gets big enough that it will keep the agencies employeed on it till the snow flies, and it is starting to threaten the public, they get serious about fighting it. They now look good to the public and are doing a great job protecting property and lives......and the circle of Money continues to flow their way.

Speaking of "let it burn" policy, If fires are a natural part of the ecosystem, and huge fires are because we have suppressed them to well for the last 100 years, Why not let them burn? Its natures way right?

PS; I am in no way ranting on those who are out there on the fireline doing the dirty work, they bust their hineys and deserve what they earn. The upper managers, well that's another story. 

I have to call BS on this. I was a wildland firefighter for 15 years (recently had a career change). I worked for the Forest Service and BLM and most of my career was as a hotshot and smokejumper. I've spent thousands of days and tens of thousands of hours on the fireline battling fire in every single state west of the continental divide from Alaska to Texas. My life was fire...and in all of my experiences I was NEVER on an incident that was managed  so that it would get big enough to keep people employed till the snow flies.

[NOCK NOCK]

@Doublelunger

1. So how do you define the let it burn policy? Or are you saying there is not such.

2. We have heard it over and over, These big fires are because we have suppressed fires so well in the last 100years. What has changed present day that we are now not suppressing as well?

The reason fires are so big these days is because we've been suppressing them for over one hundred years. Instead of letting them do what they naturally do we put them out and now we have enormous fuel loads that result in huge fires that burn all summer long. The lack of logging and grazing is a microscopic fraction of the real problem.

[bearpaw]

Prescribed burns, lol.
Yea they prolly can’t hurt, and may actually help if done in the proper spot......problem is no one one knows where lightning is going to strike next. Last year the FS did some burning up the 5900 rd.......in 6-7 spots along the road, all less than 50yard diameter, what good is that going to do?

I am a firm believer the FS likes to burn for the sake of saying they are actually doing something. Burning off 1-100 acres has little effect on summer wildfires.

   great points...

How about some prescribed logging that makes money rather than costing money! 

That's true- the small scale burns mostly a waste of time and the FS is WAY too cautious with their fires. The legal risk of a fire escaping is incredibly high.

You have trashed NEWFC on here several times in the past.  I strongly recommend you listen in on some of those meetings and see what they are trying to do with forest management.   

@WAcoyotehunter

I definitely was firmly opposed to what seemed to be the primary purpose of the coalition which essentially seemed like a blackmail tactic by enviros to basically exchange limited logging for increased wilderness areas. I will not subscribe to or participate in any such tactics used by the enviro crowd to "make a deal" for more wilderness in exchange for allowing a small amount of logging. No, I don't agree with more wilderness and it's a good thing local people stood up strongly against that push. I think that because local people stood strong against wilderness the coalition was able to agree to some logging concessions without greatly increasing wilderness areas, I agree that was a big win for NE WA. The coalition likes to take credit, but I sincerely think the results would not have been as good if there had not been a lot of opposition. The opposition was just as important to the outcome if not more important than those wanting to cut a deal! Whether we agree or disagree with that summation doesn't really matter at this point, that's all history now.

I agree with maintaining current wilderness, we need roadless areas, I agree that habitat management is extremely important, but I also believe in continuing all multiple use including recreation opportunities for all users, maintaining access for everyone including people of all ages and those with limited mobility, and I support responsible logging, grazing, and mining which creates jobs and supports our local economy. I am optimistic that the Trump Administration will bring back more logging and mining, maintain grazing, and hopefully increase recreational use, all of which creates jobs and boosts our local economy.

I don't know what the coalition is doing now, so I have no comment (good or bad) regarding their current activities? I'm always willing to take another look at anything and I like the thought of participating in activities that benefit NE WA, so I do have a few questions if you might happen to know and don't mind me asking:

 - Has the coalition backed off with the push for more wilderness?
 - Does the coalition support increased recreation opportunities for all users?
 - Does the coalition support ATV/UTV use on forest roads which are open to other motorized travel?
 - Does the coalition support further increasing logging?
 - Does the coalition support allowing responsible mining?
 - Does the coalition support continuing all current grazing allotments?
 - What activities does the coalition want to decrease or curtail?

Thanks for any insight.

[bigtex]

Do you really want to know why the fires are so big these days? It's all about the money.
Millions of dollars go to the FS,DNR,BLM, and private FF agencies. It's all about "use it or lose it" funding. Thousands of employees in these organizations would not be making any money if fires were put out early.

Take a look at the below screen shot from the Cougar creek fire dated 8-7-18. Notice the yellow line. Some will argue this, but in reality, everything inside this line has already been decided by the FS to "let it burn" instead of trying to get it put out early. Notice how close that line is to the town of Ardenvoir. Why?
Once the fire gets big enough that it will keep the agencies employeed on it till the snow flies, and it is starting to threaten the public, they get serious about fighting it. They now look good to the public and are doing a great job protecting property and lives......and the circle of Money continues to flow their way.

Speaking of "let it burn" policy, If fires are a natural part of the ecosystem, and huge fires are because we have suppressed them to well for the last 100 years, Why not let them burn? Its natures way right?

PS; I am in no way ranting on those who are out there on the fireline doing the dirty work, they bust their hineys and deserve what they earn. The upper managers, well that's another story. 

I have to call BS on this. I was a wildland firefighter for 15 years (recently had a career change). I worked for the Forest Service and BLM and most of my career was as a hotshot and smokejumper. I've spent thousands of days and tens of thousands of hours on the fireline battling fire in every single state west of the continental divide from Alaska to Texas. My life was fire...and in all of my experiences I was NEVER on an incident that was managed  so that it would get big enough to keep people employed till the snow flies.

What most don't understand is the federal agencies have to fund the fires from within their agency budget. As an example if the USFS budget is $1 billion and Congress has given them $250 million for fires but they actually spend $400 million on fires the USFS has to take that extra $150 million away from other programs within the agency. So that means they'll tap into funding for road maintenance, law enforcement, wildlife programs, etc and in some cases depleting those programs. This has caused a huge problem for the USFS. Congress just authorized FEMA to pay for some large fires but that doesn't take effect until 2020.

Now in comparison, if WA DNR goes over budget for fire the WA legislature essentially reimburses the agency the next year.

[wapiti hunter2]

Here is the solution. Very simple really.

https://www.facebook.com/Nightline/videos/10153361251442801/

[Cougartail]

I have to disagree, the spotted owl was used to stop all logging! It didn't matter where the trees were going! 

No offense but incorrect. The Spotted Owl was used to stop the cutting of old growth timber. The Japanese wanted old growth for ease of making paper out of it. The spotted owl primarily lives in old growth. The industry and insiders blew smoke up loggers/millworkers tailpipes saying it was the wacky eviro types that caused the shortage of work. That was a complete lie. Most loggers were put out of work by automation and millworkers by exports and automation. Automated equipment couldn't handle old growth and steep previously unlogged areas. It required men/loggers which was the last stand for the working guy.


I watched a track hoe with automation cut, delimb, cut to length and load more trees in 1/2 hour than a 5 man team could do in a day. That's why loggers are out of work.


The exporters where making top dollar selling subsidized logs abroad because our scumbag government wasn't operating timber sales like a business. Everybody wanted our cheap logs thus few logs were available for local mills and they couldn't compete. Banning unmilled logs would have saved the industry but it was more profitable for the powers to be to export and blame the owl.. just plain stupid!

By the way.. Make America Great.. Mill our forest products in the USA!

[bearpaw]

I have to disagree, the spotted owl was used to stop all logging! It didn't matter where the trees were going! 

No offense but incorrect. The Spotted Owl was used to stop the cutting of old growth timber. The Japanese wanted old growth for ease of making paper out of it. The spotted owl primarily lives in old growth. The industry and insiders blew smoke up loggers/millworkers tailpipes saying it was the wacky eviro types that caused the shortage of work. That was a complete lie. Most loggers were put out of work by automation and millworkers by exports and automation. Automated equipment couldn't handle old growth and steep previously unlogged areas. It required men/loggers which was the last stand for the working guy.


I watched a track hoe with automation cut, delimb, cut to length and load more trees in 1/2 hour than a 5 man team could do in a day. That's why loggers are out of work.


The exporters where making top dollar selling subsidized logs abroad because our scumbag government wasn't operating timber sales like a business. Everybody wanted our cheap logs thus few logs were available for local mills and they couldn't compete. Banning unmilled logs would have saved the industry but it was more profitable for the powers to be to export and blame the owl.. just plain stupid!

By the way.. Make America Great.. Mill our forest products in the USA!

No offense to you, but that may have been the stated goal, but the result was a reduction of all logging on federal lands. Automation has happened in most all industries, but when mills are forced to shut down due to a lack of logs to process you can't sugar coat that as being due to some other cause! It's not only the spotted owl, the enviros have used a long list of excuses to curtail logging! 

I do not agree with the idea of exporting whole logs either.

[NOCK NOCK]

Do you really want to know why the fires are so big these days? It's all about the money.
Millions of dollars go to the FS,DNR,BLM, and private FF agencies. It's all about "use it or lose it" funding. Thousands of employees in these organizations would not be making any money if fires were put out early.

Take a look at the below screen shot from the Cougar creek fire dated 8-7-18. Notice the yellow line. Some will argue this, but in reality, everything inside this line has already been decided by the FS to "let it burn" instead of trying to get it put out early. Notice how close that line is to the town of Ardenvoir. Why?
Once the fire gets big enough that it will keep the agencies employeed on it till the snow flies, and it is starting to threaten the public, they get serious about fighting it. They now look good to the public and are doing a great job protecting property and lives......and the circle of Money continues to flow their way.

Speaking of "let it burn" policy, If fires are a natural part of the ecosystem, and huge fires are because we have suppressed them to well for the last 100 years, Why not let them burn? Its natures way right?

PS; I am in no way ranting on those who are out there on the fireline doing the dirty work, they bust their hineys and deserve what they earn. The upper managers, well that's another story. 

I have to call BS on this. I was a wildland firefighter for 15 years (recently had a career change). I worked for the Forest Service and BLM and most of my career was as a hotshot and smokejumper. I've spent thousands of days and tens of thousands of hours on the fireline battling fire in every single state west of the continental divide from Alaska to Texas. My life was fire...and in all of my experiences I was NEVER on an incident that was managed  so that it would get big enough to keep people employed till the snow flies.

What most don't understand is the federal agencies have to fund the fires from within their agency budget. As an example if the USFS budget is $1 billion and Congress has given them $250 million for fires but they actually spend $400 million on fires the USFS has to take that extra $150 million away from other programs within the agency. So that means they'll tap into funding for road maintenance, law enforcement, wildlife programs, etc and in some cases depleting those programs. This has caused a huge problem for the USFS. Congress just authorized FEMA to pay for some large fires but that doesn't take effect until 2020.

Now in comparison, if WA DNR goes over budget for fire the WA legislature essentially reimburses the agency the next year.

Use it or lose it.  Believe I already stated that.

Point is, it’s NOT being used properly.


Ps, I too have a little knowledge about how governmental agensies operate, 2 incomes in my family from such.

[baldopepper]

I have a good friend over there who contracted with Vaagen to log his property. They started on it for about a month this spring and then stopped as they said the larger timber had no demand at the current time. Been sitting idle for the rest of the summer and told him they hoped to be able to do more next spring but demand is very weak right now. He's reconsidering as the prices they're paying are so low he's thinking of waiting to see if they go back up.  Main reason he wanted to log his property (about 1600 acres) is because one the fires came so close last year it made him think of getting it thinned down. Guess that's maybe why so much of the timber company land in the NE is sitting untouched and susceptible to fires.

[WAcoyotehunter]

@bearpaw
- Has the coalition backed off with the push for more wilderness?  It has relaxed a lot from the crazy original ask, but is still interested in Wilderness- particularly a 13k increase to the Salmo Priest and something (IDK what exactly) in the Kettles. 

- Does the coalition support increased recreation opportunities for all users? Yes.  They are working on Trails and access for all users, despite the ATV crowd not representing themselves....
- Does the coalition support ATV/UTV use on forest roads which are open to other motorized travel? IDK.  I don't know if they do or not.
 - Does the coalition support further increasing logging? Yes.  The NEWFC proposal (signed by CNW and Land Council) increases yield from the CNF from 30mbf to 80mbf.
- Does the coalition support allowing responsible mining? IDK. Mining is not part of the Forestry Coalitions purview. 
- Does the coalition support continuing all current grazing allotments? I think so.  Grazing interests have chose not to represent themselves...but the group has not proposed any change to grazing. 
 - What activities does the coalition want to decrease or curtail? The coalition wants to increase logging, recreation, and wilderness.  The CNF is big enough to meet all of those goals, pretty easily.

[Cougartail]

I have to disagree, the spotted owl was used to stop all logging! It didn't matter where the trees were going! 

No offense but incorrect. The Spotted Owl was used to stop the cutting of old growth timber. The Japanese wanted old growth for ease of making paper out of it. The spotted owl primarily lives in old growth. The industry and insiders blew smoke up loggers/millworkers tailpipes saying it was the wacky eviro types that caused the shortage of work. That was a complete lie. Most loggers were put out of work by automation and millworkers by exports and automation. Automated equipment couldn't handle old growth and steep previously unlogged areas. It required men/loggers which was the last stand for the working guy.


I watched a track hoe with automation cut, delimb, cut to length and load more trees in 1/2 hour than a 5 man team could do in a day. That's why loggers are out of work.


The exporters where making top dollar selling subsidized logs abroad because our scumbag government wasn't operating timber sales like a business. Everybody wanted our cheap logs thus few logs were available for local mills and they couldn't compete. Banning unmilled logs would have saved the industry but it was more profitable for the powers to be to export and blame the owl.. just plain stupid!

By the way.. Make America Great.. Mill our forest products in the USA!

No offense to you, but that may have been the stated goal, but the result was a reduction of all logging on federal lands. Automation has happened in most all industries, but when mills are forced to shut down due to a lack of logs to process you can't sugar coat that as being due to some other cause! It's not only the spotted owl, the enviros have used a long list of excuses to curtail logging! 

I do not agree with the idea of exporting whole logs either.

Look at the historical data of tree harvest and timber employment. Raping forests for the benefit of few is stupid. Had the government not subsidized the timber sales and stopped exportation we would have had more than enough logs. That's a fact and you can't sugar coat that! Giving away are timber assets to foreign countries doesn't employ  Americans.


Just so you know, 94% to 96% of the lumber used in America comes from America now that the export retrictions are in effect.  Can't suger coat the supply problem with those numbers..

[timberfaller]

"30mbf to 80mbf." 

Why so little??   Oh ya, logging is evil!!  The Twisp district(70's)30mbf was about one years worth of logging sales.  Winthrop was its own district and put out a little less.

In 1979 I seen 28mbf of sales listed in the timber office of the USFS,  ALL stopped by one group, The Sierra Club.  YEARS of hard work by timber markers and engineers(roads crew).  At that time there was only about 150 members of the Sierra Club!!!  


"Raping forests for the benefit of few is stupid." also "94% to 96%" purchased in America is American lumber

Care to elaborate your statement??

I would like to see a link to prove those numbers!