the Methow is even worse off than I thought

[Skyvalhunter]

Well this spring during the hunting season proposal comment period I hope to see people providing comment on predator control, doe tag elimination, Quality tag cutback. That is the only way to get them to listen as it is logged and documented and then they can be held accountable. But we can all sit here and complain on this forum but it falls on deaf ears without something to back it up.

[Special T]

Hopefully all of you that are praying for predator control are paying attention to the up coming lawsuit over predator control. Anti hunting and Animal rights  groups rely on lawsuits to cram their agenda down everyone's throat.

I agree everyone should get out and hunt predators more, and if something isnt done it may be the only regular hunting we could enjoy. As other have said the most effective tools have been taken away. Only to be used when enough political pressure has been applied, and just enough to keep the mutiny at bay.

@bearpaw. What state was the aerial culling in? General area? How long/hard was it for them to get the permit?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[nwwanderer]

Thanks bearpaw, similar story from Montana, a cattle and sheep man flies a cub with a shotgun, low and slow is the only way to keep his sheep business profitable.  Last I heard he was a county commissioner.

[nwwanderer]

On the poisoning idea, the feds spent many decades and tens of millions of dollars, pretty much handled the wolves but only served to spread the once local coyote clear across the country. Arctic to the tropics, coast to coast they fill the voids.

[Whitenuckles]

Go kill those coyotes

Is that it though? A lot of posts I read on here seem to suggest we've over hunted this subspecies in particular areas.

I think coyotes are a bigger factor than most people realize, they are extremely effective at killing young fawns every summer and are hard on adult deer during winters with deep snow conditions. I know a ranch owner in another state who got F&G permission to cull coyotes two years ago on a 20,000 acre ranch, in 5 or 6 days of helicopter control 111 coyotes were removed. I spent time on that ranch this winter and there are already some coyotes running around, but what I really noticed is that the deer numbers seemed to have doubled or tripled in only two years and it seemed like almost every doe had one or two fawns with them this winter. There are a few does with three surviving fawns.

I agree! I also know a big ranch that did it 2 years ago. It was amazing seeing all the deer on the place this year. But not only deer, the pheasant population had exploded.  Apparently they will be doing another helicopter hunt this year. Hopefully with that and a little lion control, thinks will be even better next year.

[idahohuntr]

Statements from the 2017 Game Status Report:

For the East Slope Cascades management zone: (GMU's203,  209, 215,  218,  224,  231,  233, 239,  242,  243,  244,  245,  246,  247,  249,  250
,251, 328, 329, 330, 334, and 335)

47,000  mule  deer reside within  the  East Slope Cascades MDMZ (WDFW 2013).  In 2016, spring population surveys were conducted in southern portion of the zone (District .  The estimate was 3,718 deer (90% CI= 3,307-4,494).  The southern population was down 40% from 2003 and 10% from the last survey in 2013.   

Liberal harvest of antlerless mule deer is used at times to limit herd growth, or reduce deer numbers in damage areas, or for responses to dramatic changes in carrying capacity such as those associated with large wildfires.  Harvest estimates from 2006-2015 indicate an increasing trend in recent years despite a slow decline in hunter effort, as indicated by decreasing hunter days

Early  data  from a  new  predator-prey study in the northern portion of the zone support the previous finding of high adult doe survival (92% annual survival rate).  Investigations of deaths of radio marked adult female mule deer indicate cougars, poaching,  deer-vehicle  collisions,  and  unidentified  predators  are common  sources  of  mortality, although the high survival rates would suggest these mortality sources are not limiting the adult female segment of the population.

Extensive loss of winter range shrub forage is the primary management concern in the northern three-fourths of the zone.  Modest increases in antlerless harvest have been implemented in the most heavily impacted GMUs.  The objective of these changes is to stabilize or slightly decrease
the local population in the short-term to bring deer numbers in line with the landscape’s reduced carrying capacity, and avoid   over-browsing   of   recovering   winter   range   shrubs. 

This statement was in regards to Naches Mule Deer Management Area:
Predation  by  cougars  accounted  for  the  highest  proportion  of  the  radio-marked  deer mortalities in this MDMZ (≈40%).

[bearpaw]

Hopefully all of you that are praying for predator control are paying attention to the up coming lawsuit over predator control. Anti hunting and Animal rights  groups rely on lawsuits to cram their agenda down everyone's throat.

I agree everyone should get out and hunt predators more, and if something isnt done it may be the only regular hunting we could enjoy. As other have said the most effective tools have been taken away. Only to be used when enough political pressure has been applied, and just enough to keep the mutiny at bay.

@bearpaw. What state was the aerial culling in? General area? How long/hard was it for them to get the permit?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I don't want to post much publicly about them specifically. They didn't tell me how much hassle it was to get the permit, but as others have mentioned, there are other ranchers getting permits to reduce coyote predation too. I know ranchers in Idaho, Montana, and Utah who have had permits for arial gunning of coyotes. I have heard stories of it in WA but that was quite a few years ago, I don't know if you can still get a permit in WA, perhaps through wildlife services if not from WDFW.

[pianoman9701]

Yep, it’s sad. 
And the WDFW is clueless complicit

Fixed it for you.

[boneaddict]

 

[skagitsteel]

I personally don't hunt the Methow, however, it lines up with a lot of what I've seen and heard in other parts of the state.  I have been able to document via lots of trail cams and scouting a couple deer herds that I hunt on the wetside and they have taken a sharp decline in the last three years.  Suspiciously the decline started at the same time I started getting wolves on my cameras in 2015. I can't blame the wolves for all of it I think they are just the straw breaking the camel's back in an ecosystem that is already above carrying capacity for predators.  I found in areas where large amounts of adult deer disappeared, mountain lions were always present and often wolves were present.  In areas that did not have as many lions and no wolves but had lots of bears/ coyotes, it was the absence of fawns and younger deer that was most evident.  I think another thing to realize is that even if actual depredation is low as argued by many predator protection advocates, ect.. (which I think they are are wrong and have no clue the true impact) the stress of being chased around and harassed leads to a much lower reproduction rate in deer and elk. 4-5 years ago it seemed like I could hike waaaay back to areas never hit by hunters and find more animals.  Often what I find now is less animals way back because there are more predators in those areas.  Areas closer to roads often seem to have more deer now vs farther back because at least vehicle traffic and the presence of hunters pushes a percentage of the predators away.  The increase in Mt Lion population has been the most alarming t me.  I would say honestly I see double the lion activity now vs 4 years ago on trail cams and have been stalked twice in the last four years.

It's a bummer to see this happen and feel like our hands are tied knowing we can't trap effectively, run hounds for cats or bait for bears all things that would allow us to help the situation.  I am trying to stay focused on what I can do to help:
1. Getting behind any sort of ground we can gain in supporting an improvement to effective hunting laws.  I think we start with pushing for more spring bear permits or general spring bear seasons in certain GMU's, with the hope of a statewide spring season.  A draw system for running hounds on cougars would be awesome, even if it was limited at first, the same could be said for baiting bears. 
2. Educating non-hunters/ family with factual information in appropriate situations- I hike/ hunt sometime in areas where I run into people and I always go out of my way to be a positive presence, friendly and maintain a good representation of what it means to be a hunter.  I've had half-hour long conversations with hikers on the importance of bear hunting, why I would hold out for an older age class deer, ect..  If done in a friendly manner it can shed light on something they may never have thought of before, like why bears are afraid of people in some of these areas and won't raid tents for food. I also am armed with some jerky/ pepperoni sticks to share if it comes up in a conversation.  Also teaching my kids, both my daughters understand and my son will too when he's old enough, the importance of hunting and predator management.  My 12-year-old could write a school paper on what predator management is and how to recognize where it is needed based on her time with me in the woods.
3. Make a point to predator hunt- I find its really easy to let the year pass spending all my time scouting for and hunting deer.  I've been in situations several times where just having a rifle along on some scouting trips would have allowed me to take out a few more predators, This year I plan to have a rifle out from august on, possibly even a .223 earlier if I see a coyote.  I have to admit I have been guilty of passing up way too many bears (30-40 every year) because of the effort and time required to pack them out and the interruption from hunting other species and scouting.  I have made a point to change that and have 'guided' three people into there first bears the last two seasons.  I also got some packgoats which have been a great tool and will be set up to pack more bears out this year.  I am also trying to learn effective methods for calling cougars, I have been researching, trying, ect... Have not succeeded yet but refuse to give up until I dial it in.
4. share predator tactic's- I'm as secretive as any hunter and actual locations I hunt have always been and will always be a secret.  However when it comes to how to hunt predators I'm an open book from here forward,  the only predator I've really learned to hunt effectively is a bear, when I learn better methods for calling cats, ect.. I will share and show as much as I can.  I will also keep taking new hunters or hunters that haven't harvested a bear and introduce them to it, its an easy species to hunt and I think at this point any dent we make in predators would be better than not. 

This may not ever make enough of a difference but it certainly would be really helpful if enough hunters in this state contributed towards predator management in whatever capacity they could. 

[bigmacc]

Statements from the 2017 Game Status Report:

For the East Slope Cascades management zone: (GMU's203,  209, 215,  218,  224,  231,  233, 239,  242,  243,  244,  245,  246,  247,  249,  250
,251, 328, 329, 330, 334, and 335)

47,000  mule  deer reside within  the  East Slope Cascades MDMZ (WDFW 2013).  In 2016, spring population surveys were conducted in southern portion of the zone (District .  The estimate was 3,718 deer (90% CI= 3,307-4,494).  The southern population was down 40% from 2003 and 10% from the last survey in 2013.   

Liberal harvest of antlerless mule deer is used at times to limit herd growth, or reduce deer numbers in damage areas, or for responses to dramatic changes in carrying capacity such as those associated with large wildfires.  Harvest estimates from 2006-2015 indicate an increasing trend in recent years despite a slow decline in hunter effort, as indicated by decreasing hunter days

Early  data  from a  new  predator-prey study in the northern portion of the zone support the previous finding of high adult doe survival (92% annual survival rate).  Investigations of deaths of radio marked adult female mule deer indicate cougars, poaching,  deer-vehicle  collisions,  and  unidentified  predators  are common  sources  of  mortality, although the high survival rates would suggest these mortality sources are not limiting the adult female segment of the population.

Extensive loss of winter range shrub forage is the primary management concern in the northern three-fourths of the zone.  Modest increases in antlerless harvest have been implemented in the most heavily impacted GMUs.  The objective of these changes is to stabilize or slightly decrease
the local population in the short-term to bring deer numbers in line with the landscape’s reduced carrying capacity, and avoid   over-browsing   of   recovering   winter   range   shrubs. 

This statement was in regards to Naches Mule Deer Management Area:
Predation  by  cougars  accounted  for  the  highest  proportion  of  the  radio-marked  deer mortalities in this MDMZ (≈40%).

Just a little perspective from an "old-timer" for some of you too young to have experienced the Methow when it was managed for the well being of the mule deer herd as priority #1. The 47,000 number they are giving here is for 22 units running down the east slope of the cascades from the Canadian boarder down to around Yakima. When the Methow valley was managed with the herds best interest always first and foremost and predators were kept in check just the 6 Methow units alone(203,218,224, 231,239 and 242) fluctuated in the vicinity of 30-38,000, it was the largest herd in the state bar none and consisted of not only a thriving "local herd" but a huge migrating herd also. There were some nasty winters of coarse with one of the worst I,ve ever seen happening during the winter of 67-68 when the town of Winthrop recorded the coldest temperature in the lower 48 one day, a flash freeze came down from Canada, my dad had old 8mm film we took of cows, horses and other livestock frozen, leaning up against trees and fence posts, thousands and thousands of deer perished. Feeding programs by the Game department along with the local people helped save the herd and get it back on track. I remember many times as a kid my dad and I stopping in at the houses of locals we knew or at the Game managers place and picking up feed to take out during rough winters. Ive told the story before of a real bad winter back in the 80,s when my dad and I stopped at a Game fellas place we knew, he sent us down to an orchard off the Burma Rd, there was 6-7 feet of snow in the north part of the valley and the majority of the Methow herd had been pushed south all the way to the Columbia. The Game Department had gotten permission from a few orchard owners to cut their fences and let deer into the orchards(I,m sure they were subsidized or taken care of) in the southern part of the valley and one was the one they sent us to. There was about 3-4 feet of snow down around there but they had kept the road plowed for access, when we drove in there we could only see the heads of about 3-400 deer making there way through trenches they had carved through the orchard, they congregated around my truck to the point I could not open my door and had to crawl out my back window to get into the back of my truck(I was a lot smaller then ), we threw about 10 bags of pellets out and got the heck out of there. There were fires also but none like the Carleton complex. As I,ve said before seeing a bear or a cougar was an actual treat and a rarity, I remember only seeing a handful of bears from the late 50,s to the mid 90,s, since the mid 90,s Ive probably seen 20-25 bears, as far as cougars during the same time frames pre mid 90,s maybe 2 or 3 and post mid 90,s around 15. Deer numbers I,m afraid have gone the other way unfortunately, pre mid 90,s it was nothing to see 100 deer a day while hunting, heck I remember times during the 60,s 70s, and 80,s seeing an average of 200 deer a day during the season some years. I understand there are a lot of issues and once again the WDFW has to watch over to many irons that have been put into the fire and the Mule deer herd of the Methow is not the priority it once was but the predator situation in this valley cannot be glossed over, downplayed or taken lightly, most hunters with a history of hunting this valley and folks who were born and raised here are seeing it and have been for over 20 or so years, pre Carleton complex,  when the average Joe like myself who has hunted and stumbled around this valley for going on 60 years(along with a family history in the valley going back 100 years see,s what he see,s as far as predators booming and deer numbers continuing to spiral in this valley the problem or the biggest part of the problem is obvious, like I said this herd is being eaten alive and until the predator problem is aggressively addressed and the WDFW admits and accepts the fact that predation IS a problem concerning the Methow herd, not the only problem of coarse but it is a HUGE problem then this dance will just continue until only a shadow of this once mighty herd is all thats left.... just my observations and 

[timberfaller]

"Liberal harvest of antlerless mule deer is used at times to limit herd growth, or reduce deer numbers in damage areas, or for responses to dramatic changes in carrying capacity such as those associated with large wildfires.  Harvest estimates from 2006-2015 indicate an increasing trend in recent years despite a slow decline in hunter effort, as indicated by decreasing hunter days"

  What they didn't research was the late 70' and early 80's where HUGH amounts of "does" were taken! Base on a PR campaign by the "Game Department" that only 3 years of taking HUGH amounts of does and then they would close down the permits.  DIDN'T happen, to much revenue came it so it continued.   ONE only has to think about that for a little while and contemplate what the "effect" took place!    You'd have to understand "animal husbandry" first!!  Hint; by the late 80's sections of winter ranges in the valley never seen a single deer show up, I wonder why???  Did Ole Man Buck, forget where they were??   

[bigmacc]

To a certain extent I understand why in the past they would give out doe tags, when the herd was thriving and Mother Nature delivered a blow etc., but as said, the herd was strong, thriving and predator numbers were very low so adjustments from time to time to the herd needed to happen. But like some are saying it hasn't stopped, the Methow herd is nowhere near the numbers it used to be but predators numbers are growing and thriving and are taking out more and more deer every year and not all are does, so the question is as some are asking, why continue selling doe tags in the Methow? HMMM, seems the predators have done a great job depleting this herd and continue to do so, especially since hounds were taken out and baiting was done away with amongst other ways to control predators, maybe with whats happening to this herd doe tags should be stopped for awhile and special predator tags along with "quality predator tags"(special seasons and allowing hounds for the lucky draw-ees) should be sold for thinning at least cougar and bear and for those who don't get drawn still buy your bear and cougar tags and also like some have said"shoot every yote you see". Even before the big fire this herd had started suffering and it was not a coincidence that it started happening when hounds were banned and other means of controlling predators was halted and a new apex predator was on the landscape in this valley, and nothing has been done to address the population explosion of these predators, IMHO this particular herd is not at a number where doe tags should be sold, for crying out loud a lot of deer are being picked off every day in this valley by predators, the herd is close to half the size it once was and predators have populated at even a faster pace, sell special permits for predators WDFW, I would bet you would bring in a lot of money and would also be helping out this herd....

[idahohuntr]

Given all the talk of how bad mule deer herds are doing does it really make sense to allow unlimited otc tags?  I know I would like to see most of the state go draw only for mule deer.

[mburrows]

Given all the talk of how bad mule deer herds are doing does it really make sense to allow unlimited otc tags?  I know I would like to see most of the state go draw only for mule deer.

  would improve the herds and the experience for a lot folks, switch to a Colorado type of system