the Methow is even worse off than I thought

[woodswalker]

[ The WDFW guys claimed there were no wolves, when he told them he had a whole roll of film that would prove them wrong, WDFW demanded they hand it over. He said things got a little hot before they were allowed to leave with their film.

We already know how hard it is to get WDF$Wolves to confirm wolf packs etc..

Hunt while you can, because like the Methow, the rest of WA will be decimated as well.

So why not print the photos and give copies to the WDF&W guys to confirm a pack? This story makes no sense if you really want accountability.  Let's see the photos?

The old timer said they offered WDFW prints but not the roll, but WDFW wanted the roll, Not hard to believe at all knowing WDFW like we do now.

If the WDFW gets the roll, they will bury it and it will never see the light of day.  typical thing...destroy or confiscate the contradictory evidence.

[bigmacc]

Well last Falls survey results of the Methow units only confirm what I have been seeing.

 , for instance the "total" for 224(Pearrygin), very, very sad, I remember seeing over 372 deer just in ONE FIELD! Then drive down the road and see another 4-5 hundred on a hillside, then drive up a dirt road and see another 1-2 hundred in a particular draw, then park the rig and walk in a couple hundred yards and count another 2-3 hundred spread out in a big basin , then head back a different way and see another couple hundred in another field, and sprinkled throughout all was around 3-4 hundred bucks with about half of those being some real dandys, THEN we would head to town to have breakfast!!! This was only about 25 or so years ago! Like a lot of us have said on here many times, the Methow herd being a mere shadow of what it once was is a gross OVERSTATEMENT, this herd is being decimated before our eyes. FYI, predators are booming and doing just fine though, talked with a fella I know who said he has never seen more cats and cat sign along with "kills" as he has seen this past winter, at least they know how to "manage" predators to grow and thrive

Its like a lot of folks say, "the predator issue in the Methow will be resolved soon, because soon the deer will be all but gone and the predators will either die off or move on", if something isn't done this is just around the corner I predict, this particular herd cannot continue to withstand this beating by an overpopulation of predators..... ... for some of the younger folks on here and those that don't know this valley or its "Mule Deer history" well, at one time this was the largest migrating Mule Deer herd in the country and fluctuated between 30-40 thousand head in its prime(thats deer that migrated and wintered just in the Methow Valley), that was also pre predator explosion and wolves, I believe its way less than half that now and still dropping.

[bigmacc]

Well last Falls survey results of the Methow units only confirm what I have been seeing.

Another observation as far as this dismal survey goes and I,m sure I have told some of this on here before so forgive me. They talk of 5 day aerial surveys or as some call it "fly-bys" which I,m sure are probably pretty pricey. My dad and I used to do our own counts after the season ended, usually the second or third week of November(depending on weather). I remember we would run into college kids(usually enrolled in Game or Forestry classes) that were out and about doing surveys. They would be a mile or two off a road on the side of a big draw that was in a migration corridor, we seen some over the years 5 miles into an area(migration route) that my great grandpa told some game guys about, he was sitting on a stump with a clicker clipboard, a pencil and about 10 peanut butter and jelly sandwiches just counting deer as they came through the saddle, if I remember right I think when we ran into him he was at about a 1000 count for the day with just an hour or so left. I remember a gal sitting in a rig on the side of a paved road (which will remain nameless ) that had counted over 5 or 6 hundred cross the road in a 3 hour period. One year(I think it was mid 80,s?) a big snow storm hit a few days before the season was about to end, the temps dropped to single digits and my dad said "the deer are going to be pouring through here in another couple days!". We all had our bucks already and were thinking about packing up the camp and getting out of Dodge but decided to stick around to see the "show". Two days later as we were loading up over 300 deer total came through our camp, it was snowing hard again and over about a two hour period they were on a mission to get from point A to point B, they were coming through 5 or 6 in a bunch then it would be quiet for 10 or so minutes and another 30 would come through all around us, we took a few pictures of the chaos(some I posted on here years ago but pulled them off), there were instances when they passed by just a few yards or feet away from us, we had to actually dodge them a few times, I have never seen anything like it before or since, boneaddict, you know the spot, its the hill I told you of that my great grandma named back in the 20,s. Talk about a survey!, it was every man for himself .......oh and by the way, it was a real rarity, even a treat if you were lucky enough to even get a glimpse of a bear or cougar back then

[mountainman]

I remember those day in the upper Methow growing up👍

[Skyvalhunter]

I too remember those good old days in the Gold Creek area. Now things have changed and the WDFW has move on to where they justify the low herd numbers by saying the areas can only sustain a lot fewer deer. Which is total BS as those areas can sustain a lot more.

[woodswalker]

Well last Falls survey results of the Methow units only confirm what I have been seeing.

Another observation as far as this dismal survey goes and I,m sure I have told some of this on here before so forgive me. They talk of 5 day aerial surveys or as some call it "fly-bys" which I,m sure are probably pretty pricey. My dad and I used to do our own counts after the season ended, usually the second or third week of November(depending on weather). I remember we would run into college kids(usually enrolled in Game or Forestry classes) that were out and about doing surveys. They would be a mile or two off a road on the side of a big draw that was in a migration corridor, we seen some over the years 5 miles into an area(migration route) that my great grandpa told some game guys about, he was sitting on a stump with a clicker clipboard, a pencil and about 10 peanut butter and jelly sandwiches just counting deer as they came through the saddle, if I remember right I think when we ran into him he was at about a 1000 count for the day with just an hour or so left. I remember a gal sitting in a rig on the side of a paved road (which will remain nameless ) that had counted over 5 or 6 hundred cross the road in a 3 hour period. One year(I think it was mid 80,s?) a big snow storm hit a few days before the season was about to end, the temps dropped to single digits and my dad said "the deer are going to be pouring through here in another couple days!". We all had our bucks already and were thinking about packing up the camp and getting out of Dodge but decided to stick around to see the "show". Two days later as we were loading up over 300 deer total came through our camp, it was snowing hard again and over about a two hour period they were on a mission to get from point A to point B, they were coming through 5 or 6 in a bunch then it would be quiet for 10 or so minutes and another 30 would come through all around us, we took a few pictures of the chaos(some I posted on here years ago but pulled them off), there were instances when they passed by just a few yards or feet away from us, we had to actually dodge them a few times, I have never seen anything like it before or since, boneaddict, you know the spot, its the hill I told you of that my great grandma named back in the 20,s. Talk about a survey!, it was every man for himself .......oh and by the way, it was a real rarity, even a treat if you were lucky enough to even get a glimpse of a bear or cougar back then

A few years ago we had a big dump of snow in the high country on Friday before the season end, by Saturday night the daytime trickle of deer turned into a freshnet and then a rising flood.  By Sunday, when i had to leave, i had counted over 300 deer through one saddle...and i was told there were several hundred more.  but its a shadow of what we saw in the 80s and into the early 1990s.  I too saw over 500 deer on a morning run into town from camp (after i filled my tag in the 1st hour of opening day - relaxed the rest of the 2+ weeks of the season in camp reading and sleeping.  We went 7 for 7 that year.)

LAst year i hiked my fanny off and managed to get GLASS on 61 deer...and over 50 were within 2 miles of town.  I never got in rifle range of a legal buck...only SAW 5 and 3 were in town.

[bigmacc]

Well last Falls survey results of the Methow units only confirm what I have been seeing.

Another observation as far as this dismal survey goes and I,m sure I have told some of this on here before so forgive me. They talk of 5 day aerial surveys or as some call it "fly-bys" which I,m sure are probably pretty pricey. My dad and I used to do our own counts after the season ended, usually the second or third week of November(depending on weather). I remember we would run into college kids(usually enrolled in Game or Forestry classes) that were out and about doing surveys. They would be a mile or two off a road on the side of a big draw that was in a migration corridor, we seen some over the years 5 miles into an area(migration route) that my great grandpa told some game guys about, he was sitting on a stump with a clicker clipboard, a pencil and about 10 peanut butter and jelly sandwiches just counting deer as they came through the saddle, if I remember right I think when we ran into him he was at about a 1000 count for the day with just an hour or so left. I remember a gal sitting in a rig on the side of a paved road (which will remain nameless ) that had counted over 5 or 6 hundred cross the road in a 3 hour period. One year(I think it was mid 80,s?) a big snow storm hit a few days before the season was about to end, the temps dropped to single digits and my dad said "the deer are going to be pouring through here in another couple days!". We all had our bucks already and were thinking about packing up the camp and getting out of Dodge but decided to stick around to see the "show". Two days later as we were loading up over 300 deer total came through our camp, it was snowing hard again and over about a two hour period they were on a mission to get from point A to point B, they were coming through 5 or 6 in a bunch then it would be quiet for 10 or so minutes and another 30 would come through all around us, we took a few pictures of the chaos(some I posted on here years ago but pulled them off), there were instances when they passed by just a few yards or feet away from us, we had to actually dodge them a few times, I have never seen anything like it before or since, boneaddict, you know the spot, its the hill I told you of that my great grandma named back in the 20,s. Talk about a survey!, it was every man for himself .......oh and by the way, it was a real rarity, even a treat if you were lucky enough to even get a glimpse of a bear or cougar back then

A few years ago we had a big dump of snow in the high country on Friday before the season end, by Saturday night the daytime trickle of deer turned into a freshnet and then a rising flood.  By Sunday, when i had to leave, i had counted over 300 deer through one saddle...and i was told there were several hundred more.  but its a shadow of what we saw in the 80s and into the early 1990s.  I too saw over 500 deer on a morning run into town from camp (after i filled my tag in the 1st hour of opening day - relaxed the rest of the 2+ weeks of the season in camp reading and sleeping.  We went 7 for 7 that year.)

LAst year i hiked my fanny off and managed to get GLASS on 61 deer...and over 50 were within 2 miles of town.  I never got in rifle range of a legal buck...only SAW 5 and 3 were in town.

I hear you woodswalker, the local population of deer are pushing closer and closer to civilization to try to avoid predation, been seeing the trend for over a decade now. The farther you get back in the hills the more "kills" you find, we found over 2 dozen cached kills in an area last year alone in about a 3-4 mile radius area, we were back in about 4 miles from the nearest road and most of the kills looked to have been from the previous winter. We were in a migration corridor and you could picture deer migrating through there and being picked off one by one over a period of time as they moved through. Then we went into another area and found more that looked like local deer that had been killed and cached probably during the summer, this area was closer to civilization, way to many cats in that valley, way to many. One deer a week is what one cat will kill.We are going to be putting in a lot of effort to kill some going forward, its the least we can do for this herd, I just wish we could get the powers to be to get a handle on them, year round seasons or something, when you stumble onto that many kills in a small area of that vast valley, how many more are out there just partially buried and rotting, probably thousands and thousands and that is probably being conservative, then throw in a booming bear population and wolves and like the Skyvalhunter says, WDFW is scrambling trying to justify low herd numbers. It seems they attempt to blame the crashing numbers of this herd on everything but an exploding predator problem which in all their writings and surveys they just gloss over,  I agree Sky and I know a lot of others that agree that for this particular herd it is BS, predators are a HUGE issue in the Methow and the number 1 reason this herd is spiraling downward, there are other reasons of coarse but a whole lot of deer are getting killed in this valley every week by bears, cats, yotes and wolves and their numbers are growing, it doesn't take a degree in somebody's back  pocket to figure out what has and what is going to happen to this herd.

[Skyvalhunter]

One thing I will tell you about those survey results I got from the WDFW. I had to request a public records request. When I first heard about the helicopter survey and requested it from the area biologist he never even replied back. So I said screw it and turned in a request to the WDFW. It took a while to get it back but after a couple follow up e-mails did receive it. Obviously this wasn't going to be made public on it's own. Why? If you look at the numbers the deer population is hurting but we already knew that. When you have GMU's like Alta and Chiliwist that are decent sized and that few of deer on the survey it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's happening.
But hey lets keep the special permits as is. Maybe some of the people with 15 points or more would be willing to burn their points on a quality buck area where there are few and certainly no quantity!!

[boneaddict]

 

[bigmacc]

  ...nail on the head Sky.

[bigmacc]

Just spent 3 days looking for deer, seen more deer around town in peoples yards and across the street from Pardners Store than I seen putting on close to 10boot miles and over 150 driving into different haunts. Seen around 25 out and about over 3 days and seen around 30 around town, just horrible is about all I can say. Way worse than last year about the same time, this herd is drying up. Did see a big ole bear with 2 cubs on a in a big saddle up on 8 mile and a cougar about 800 yards away up Boulder, which is also where we seen one last deer season that we sent 2 guys in after and they killed it, seems it got "replaced" pretty fast or like some folks I know over there say "kill one and theres 2 more to take its place they are so thick in here".

[MADMAX]

Just got back myself
Not many deer around
Did see one elk in with the deer herd, up on rendezvous
Saw turks, coyotes and lots of gophers though
No bears or cats seen
Sad
Looked green and lush with lots of feed and empty pastures

[wolfbait]

A wolf pack of six and nine wolves have been seen on a regular basis a few miles outside of Twisp, below Dead Horse lake and on the hill above Spokane Grade. Several people have seen them this spring, the latest sighting was a week ago.

Wolves have also been seen in McFarland Creek-Black Canyon this spring.

[bearpaw]

Well last Falls survey results of the Methow units only confirm what I have been seeing.

Those are pathetic deer number for that many GMU's! 

I'm not even sure how your predators are surviving?

[bigmacc]

Well last Falls survey results of the Methow units only confirm what I have been seeing.

Those are pathetic deer number for that many GMU's! 

I'm not even sure how your predators are surviving?

Well bearpaw they claim somewhere around 15,000 deer (give or take) still roam the valley, I know a lot of folks including myself that think that number is way high, the folks I know think its more like  10-12,000. Either way its a huge decrease from the fluctuating 30-40,000 head of 25 and more years ago but still leaves enough prey for the predators to eat. If the herd continues this tailspin its a matter of another decade or two that the predators will start to move out(IMO), probably after they start wacking livestock and pets for awhile first, who knows, your right, those numbers are pathetic. I keep hoping I,m wrong about this herds demise but every time I spend time out there it just solidifies my observations and thoughts, I spend maybe a total of about 3-4 months there nowadays, just wandering around the old haunts, beautiful country but pretty sad as far as the herd goes, everytime I walk in to certain areas or glass certain saddles or draws this time of year I remember a time not long ago that hundreds of deer were seen only now to not even see one, not even one. Yes it is pathetic.