the Methow is even worse off than I thought

[mburrows]

Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.

[Armadillo]

Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.

You're not wrong. Poaching is huge too

[Skyvalhunter]

Well I think you are way off base when it comes to the deer in the Methow number 1 problem is human expansion. This has not been a gradual decrease. It's not like there are houses popping up all over the place in the valley. When the number of predators seen is way more than normal it is an issue. When the state hands out special permits mainly doe permits that has a huge effect. Late doe tags a few years back when the fires ravaged the area and those does were pregnant. Or had a yearling with was a bad decision by the WDFW. If the human expansion was such a problem why is it in the winter you see deer bedding in people's yards. Right or wrong the valleys residents feed the deer to help them thru the winter. The deer also seek refuge around humans hoping to escape the predators.

[mountainman]

Well I think you are way off base when it comes to the deer in the Methow number 1 problem is human expansion. This has not been a gradual decrease. It's not like there are houses popping up all over the place in the valley. When the number of predators seen is way more than normal it is an issue. When the state hands out special permits mainly doe permits that has a huge effect. Late doe tags a few years back when the fires ravaged the area and those does were pregnant. Or had a yearling with was a bad decision by the WDFW. If the human expansion was such a problem why is it in the winter you see deer bedding in people's yards. Right or wrong the valleys residents feed the deer to help them thru the winter. The deer also seek refuge around humans hoping to escape the predators.

Agreed!

[idaho guy]

Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.

These counts aren’t honest they added a huge area north of the park that’s has a lot of private ground. This area wasn’t included in the original elk counts regardless going from 19,000 to 5800 now is not exactly a victory for elk. As usual they change the study area to control the narrative. Anyways Montana is hunting and trapping wolves outside the park and that will definitely help the herd in the general area. I don’t think you are pro wolf but what I mean by that term is people that downplay their negative effects and are either dishonest or ignorant of what wolves do and their real impact on wildlife. I totally disagree on houses and habitat displacement being a big factor up there the existing habitat should support 20 times the current deer population. Habitat loss is the number one deflection all pro predator so called environmental groups use to excuse dwindling ungulate numbers. It’s not usually the case from what I have seen. There is no doubt that you desperately need hound hunting an uncontrolled lion population will devastate mule deer. My only point is wolves are the X factor when it comes to predators nothing can do close to the damage they will. Some study’s suggest you need to kill 50 percent annually just to stay even. Visualize a bunch of wild dogs having litters of 8-10 pups every year. Controlling that is a tall order. It’s frustrating to see the pro predator anti hunting agenda play out perfectly in Washington state. The play book is to misrepresent predators as a noble species that needs special protection from “unfair” hunting practices. Step one eliminate accomplished elimination of hound hunting and bear baiting. Step 2 ridiculous season dates and quotas for predators. Step three introduce the X factor wolves and let them expand to ridiculous numbers. Step 4 end hunting as we know it because the North America wildlife model no longer works with very little or no excess population to even hunt. Well meaning hunters already want to reduce tags and seasons to save the herds but 1 hunter only kills 1 deer per year 1 lion kills 52 deer per year. I can’t believe people are still willing to blame habitat or fires or excessive tags when the evidence is so clear that the agenda was to overpopulated predators as a means to reduce and end hunting. Step 5 is to come for your guns you won’t need them anymore in their minds. The other side has won in Washington state and still hunters want to have their blinders on and even still buy into their narrative. I am glad I live in Idaho but with all the new out of staters moving in they are trying the exact steps here. Right now a group is trying to stop bear baiting. As hunters we need to wake up and fight back sorry to rant. The methow is exactly what they wanted to accomplish.

[idahohuntr]

Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.

Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US. 

[idahohuntr]

Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.

These counts aren’t honest they added a huge area north of the park that’s has a lot of private ground. This area wasn’t included in the original elk counts regardless going from 19,000 to 5800 now is not exactly a victory for elk. As usual they change the study area to control the narrative. Anyways Montana is hunting and trapping wolves outside the park and that will definitely help the herd in the general area. I don’t think you are pro wolf but what I mean by that term is people that downplay their negative effects and are either dishonest or ignorant of what wolves do and their real impact on wildlife. I totally disagree on houses and habitat displacement being a big factor up there the existing habitat should support 20 times the current deer population. Habitat loss is the number one deflection all pro predator so called environmental groups use to excuse dwindling ungulate numbers. It’s not usually the case from what I have seen. There is no doubt that you desperately need hound hunting an uncontrolled lion population will devastate mule deer. My only point is wolves are the X factor when it comes to predators nothing can do close to the damage they will. Some study’s suggest you need to kill 50 percent annually just to stay even. Visualize a bunch of wild dogs having litters of 8-10 pups every year. Controlling that is a tall order. It’s frustrating to see the pro predator anti hunting agenda play out perfectly in Washington state. The play book is to misrepresent predators as a noble species that needs special protection from “unfair” hunting practices. Step one eliminate accomplished elimination of hound hunting and bear baiting. Step 2 ridiculous season dates and quotas for predators. Step three introduce the X factor wolves and let them expand to ridiculous numbers. Step 4 end hunting as we know it because the North America wildlife model no longer works with very little or no excess population to even hunt. Well meaning hunters already want to reduce tags and seasons to save the herds but 1 hunter only kills 1 deer per year 1 lion kills 52 deer per year. I can’t believe people are still willing to blame habitat or fires or excessive tags when the evidence is so clear that the agenda was to overpopulated predators as a means to reduce and end hunting. Step 5 is to come for your guns you won’t need them anymore in their minds. The other side has won in Washington state and still hunters want to have their blinders on and even still buy into their narrative. I am glad I live in Idaho but with all the new out of staters moving in they are trying the exact steps here. Right now a group is trying to stop bear baiting. As hunters we need to wake up and fight back sorry to rant. The methow is exactly what they wanted to accomplish.

The Idaho Farm Bureau is the biggest threat to the public land hunter in Idaho...be sure to add them to your list of things that are attacking the NAMWC.   

[idaho guy]

What?

[idaho guy]

Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.

Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

This is exactly what I am talking about!! I think you have been an avid hunter most of your life? Most likely from a hunting family? Yet here you are quoting their narrative and using their number one excuse to explain away dwindling herds. The other side won in Washington overpopulation of predators is killing off any huntable populations of ungulates. Look at the methow and your permit numbers. This is exactly what they wanted. The evidence is staring us all in the face and you still quote their narrative and thereby promote their agenda? Even a few years ago I could understand this but not now. Anti hunting groups posing as environmental groups protected predators as a means to end hunting as we know it. And you’re still willing to buy their bs propaganda?  The other side won in Washington and your deer and elk lost. But I know it’s all those damn houses. Funny thing is all the elk and deer in Idaho moved to town to get away from the wolves. Please think about the state of Washington game herds and seriously consider the facts. Is it really habitat loss that created such sharp declines? Everything the tin foil conspiracy guys on here warned about is coming true. Some of them were mocked but it’s playing out exactly as was said. Just look at the on the ground facts not the propaganda you read.

[huntnphool]

 Been reading posts on this thread for some time now, it's interesting reading how some fall for the propaganda.

 Like bigmacc, I've been hunting the Methow for a few years, and in all that time I've not seen this "loss of habitat and human population" BS that continues to be spewed on here.

 Fires have moved the head to different routes and wintering areas, but there is still plenty of food for them.

 We have shorter general seasons and far fewer hunters than years past, yet the numbers continue to fall.

 Some of you are ...SMFH!!!

[nwwanderer]

Idaho Farm Bureau a threat to public hunting in the Methow?  I am all for moving the state line, when did it happen?  With one half of one percent of the population of the USA feeding 80% of us and less than 2% feeding all of us in the USA, why would you rock the little tiny boat that keeps you fed?  The sharks are circling that boat and have taken a big bite in Washington state just this week.  Take a moment to look at taxation and control here.  Private land feeds the vast majority of wildlife.  No deer or elk lived in my region before farmers provided for them.  Happy to provide references on all of that if needed.

[MADMAX]

seemed to me last week the valley looked pretty lush, so looked like plenty of feed
devoid of many mule deer everywhere, even alfalfa fields
few
not many
couple a coyotes
one elk

[bigmacc]

Been reading posts on this thread for some time now, it's interesting reading how some fall for the propaganda.

 Like bigmacc, I've been hunting the Methow for a few years, and in all that time I've not seen this "loss of habitat and human population" BS that continues to be spewed on here.

 Fires have moved the head to different routes and wintering areas, but there is still plenty of food for them.

 We have shorter general seasons and far fewer hunters than years past, yet the numbers continue to fall.

 Some of you are ...SMFH!!!

 ....Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself. Number 1, 2 and 3 reasons of this herds decline IMHO.

[kodiak10]

I have been reading this thread for a while and have really enjoyed hearing all of what everyone has to say about the topic.

I actually spoke with a guy the other day that grew up in the Methow in the 70 and 80s. Ran into him by random chance at a bar in Seattle. Really was amazed by all his tales of catching beautiful trout in the streams and all the amazing wildlife he grew around. His family raised sheep back there and got out sometime in the late 80's apparently in time before all the changes that happened back here.

I really wish I could have seen this place before all the rapid changes occurred and the massive decline in its health. Makes me real sad, as I remember visiting about 4 years ago and heard it was even much more healthy than it was today. Heard one guy tell me that you can't drive around here for a year without hitting a deer since there is so many back there. I wish I was into hunting when I was that age, so I could have at least seen it and appreciated it for what it was, but climbing and hiking took up all my free time then. 

I appreciate all the information on this thread and stories and hope we can all come together to improve the health of the valley.

[mburrows]

By human expansion i mean the roads that are very accessible year round. That directly equals pressure on them year round. A house here a fence there, it all adds up.

I dont have a lot of experience in the methow ill be honest. So I'll defer to guys with more boots on the ground knowledge any day but in my opinion habitat loss and "molestation" are a huge problem.  I do have quite a bit of time logged in other areas of our core mule deer areas though

I also agree, we need to quit killing does.