Help me understand: Permit seems pointless

[ljsommer]

So I've been posting lately about this Wynoochee permit that I drew (first permit I've drawn). It's a late season cow archery tag.
When I drew the tag I was excited, thinking that since it was a permit, it must be a good opportunity. Because I was a bit blinded by excitement I didn't even look at the harvest rate for that unit. It's 3%.

Recently I looked at 660, just south of Wynoochee (648). It's antlerless or 3pt+ by default, no permit necessary, and it has an 18% harvest rate. Now, there's no late season, but that success rate difference is staggering and those two units are less than an hour away.

So my question is this: How is this even a "permit"? Are there other lottery draws like this that are winnable but mostly worthless? I wish I'd realized this disparity earlier because instead of spending so much time in Wynoochee I would've spent that time in 660 instead.

[ljsommer]

Oh and just to clarify: This post is all about data from WDFW. I am comparing seasons, allowable animals and harvest rates. That's all. "On paper", so to speak.

[buckfvr]

IMO at least half the permits are junk.

[boneaddict]

  or more, and even some of the  ones that were once great are worthless compared to what they were.

[ljsommer]

Out of curiosity has anyone ever asked a WDFW official about this? i am planning on calling a biologist in the region and asking a couple questions and this is something I'll be asking him about. It wouldn't be so surprising if the two units that I am comparing (648 vs 660) weren't literally right next to one another (they share a border). Obviously that's only a pertinent data point as it pertains to human movement - not very relevant to elk populations or movements.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

For starters, 660 is mostly Weyerhauser land and you need their land use permit to hunt there.  Since the number of permits given out is limited, that skewers the success rates. (less hunters/same amount of animals = better success rate)  648 has quite a bit of National Forest so anyone can hunt there in the general season. 660 has been logged heavily the last few years so there is a lot of good habitat and browse and openings where you can spot animals easier. 648 has a lot less logging activity in the National forest part and many areas are grown up and past their prime for habitat/browse. And while there are still animals in there, the hunting can be tough, brushy, and steep, which also affects harvest rates.

[blackpowderhunter]

while tags might not be as good as they once were.....my opinion (which may not be worth much) is that if you are going to put in for a special permit..you should know about that hunt.  i put in for "quality" elk tags for the units i general season hunt, because i am constantly learning the areas.  i personally wouldn't waste my anterless "points" on a hunt i know nothing about.
have you ever been in the unit in the late season?  are you purely basing your unhappiness with these success numbers before even putting boots on the ground in the unit during  the late season?
i'm not trying to start an argument, im just saying this could be a great hunt.

[ljsommer]

For starters, 660 is mostly Weyerhauser land and you need their land use permit to hunt there.  Since the number of permits given out is limited, that skewers the success rates. (less hunters/same amount of animals = better success rate)  648 has quite a bit of National Forest so anyone can hunt there in the general season. 660 has been logged heavily the last few years so there is a lot of good habitat and browse and openings where you can spot animals easier. 648 has a lot less logging activity in the National forest part and many areas are grown up and past their prime for habitat/browse. And while there are still animals in there, the hunting can be tough, brushy, and steep, which also affects harvest rates.

I guess what I am saying is that if you looked at nothing but the numbers provided by the WDFW itself, I "won" a permit that isn't worth much more than the paper it's printed on. 3% is abysmally low. Why this is even a lottery is what's confusing me.

[bobcat]

That hunt had a 14% success rate in 2018, which isn't terrible for archery, especially a late season hunt. It's best not to apply if you're not already familiar with the unit. But you can see it's a relatively popular permit, with 223 applications for 110 permits. It certainly gives you a much better opportunity to kill an elk, and you can also hunt bulls at the same time in the same unit under the general season.

[ljsommer]

That hunt had a 14% success rate in 2018, which isn't terrible for archery, especially a late season hunt. It's best not to apply if you're not already familiar with the unit. But you can see it's a relatively popular permit, with 223 applications for 110 permits. It certainly gives you a much better opportunity to kill an elk, and you can also hunt bulls at the same time in the same unit under the general season.

Oh? I am curious where you're seeing that data because I haven't found that on the harvest reports. The "special hunt" view doesn't appear to give success percentage, only the "general".
Yes, I agree, 14% isn't bad at all for archery.

[bobcat]

Go to "Elk: Individual Hunts"

[ljsommer]

Go to "Elk: Individual Hunts"

Awesome this is really important information! I totally missed that. Thanks bobcat!

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Go to "Elk: Individual Hunts"

I was gonna post the same thing about the success rate of that particular hunt but you beat me to it Bob.  The new web site design is taking me some getting used to, to find things.  I hate having to get re-trained.

[ljsommer]

Fantastic thanks for the info this is exactly the sort of info I was hoping to find (something to explain the value of this permit).

[Igottanewknee]

Go to "Elk: Individual Hunts"

Awesome this is really important information! I totally missed that. Thanks bobcat!

I think I've said it before. If you got a question, there's an extremely high percentage that Bobcat has the answer or can find it in a heartbeat. Nice to have guys like that on this site.

[Stein]

There is value in the tags because we keep paying for them.  I had my best WA hunt on a special permit and my worst two hunts on special permits.  Don't assume the state is selling permits for anything other than revenue generation.

[Special T]

It should also be noted that special tags are a management tool. If you are specifically trying to reduce or offer up harvest the permits work as intended. With a 14% sucess rate we know generally how many cows will be harvested with bows with this method.

Tags are a double edged sword. They are a management tool and the quality of the opportunity is diluted when folks put in for them with little to no knowledge of the area.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ljsommer]

Ok so there's something I'd like to address because I've heard it many times and it doesn't make sense to me. I've heard it said many times that you shouldn't apply for a tag in a unit you're not already familiar with. I take issue with that.

First, what's your measure of determining familiarity with a unit? In most units you're talking thousands of acres of land. What about e-scouting? Does that count? If not, why not? It's good enough to travel out of state for a good tag but not good enough for in-state?

Second, there are tons of lottery tags in this state. If you're saying that you should only apply for units you're familiar with it means you're saying that your already slim chances are made even more slim by limiting the ones you're "supposed" to apply for.

Lastly, the odds of these drawings is ludicrously low, why wouldn't you encourage your fellow hunters to apply and then if you happen to be familiar with the unit, offer to help the person out? If you want people who draw to be familiar with the unit - here's an idea: go out and show them some locations to help them make their drawing a success. I'd prefer a hunting community filling tags over a hunting community eating tags.

[Okanagan]

There is value in the tags because we keep paying for them.  I had my best WA hunt on a special permit and my worst two hunts on special permits.  Don't assume the state is selling permits for anything other than revenue generation.

^^This^^ 

I've observed game seasons and permit seasons in several jurisdictions.  There is some strange logic behind some of them.  The only constant is revenue to the state.

I lived in a state for awhile that had a long, generous-bag-limit pheasant season.  In eight years of living and hiking, hunting etc. I never saw a single pheasant.  They might as well have had an open season on polar bears.  Hope this post is not giving ideas to the game regs people in Olympia!

I drew an elk permit many years ago in WA for an area with almost zero elk.  The reason for the permit was that the game dept. did not want any elk at all in that region so gave out a good number of permits to entice hunters to chase out any elk that entered the area.  I talked with a warden who told me that he did not think that he could find a single elk track in one full day of driving logging roads and looking.  I applied because I knew the geography of the area and my son lived there.  I lucked into two elk at 40 yards on opening day.

My son drew a permit one year that we expected to be fabulous but was a bust due to weather.  A delayed Fall had not caused deer to migrate normally.  Rain for the whole time we had to hunt added misery.

Some permits turn out to be more trouble than they are worth due to scheduling and distance and I apply for fewer than I used to.  If it fits my schedule and plans maybe, but if I will have to change my fall plans much to use the permit, I pass. 

Re knowing the area of the permit:  either know it or learn it... or wing it, which usually means that by the end of the hunt you know some simple things you wish you'd known at the start, but it is too late..

[bobcat]

I would never tell people not to apply for a permit just because they're not already familiar with the unit. But in my comment to you I did say it would be better not to apply for that permit if you're not already familiar with the unit, but I say that only because you're complaining about it already, even before the season has started. It was your choice to apply, and this wasn't a low odds draw. It was around 50% odds so you should have expected to draw, and if you really didn't want the permit you just took it from someone who DID want it.

Also, it's unlikely that people who know where the elk are in this unit would show you, because it's a unit that also has a general season for archery and modern firearm. So it's kind of unrealistic to think that people will give up their honey holes to a stranger just because you drew a cow permit.

[Special T]

Ok so there's something I'd like to address because I've heard it many times and it doesn't make sense to me. I've heard it said many times that you shouldn't apply for a tag in a unit you're not already familiar with. I take issue with that.

First, what's your measure of determining familiarity with a unit? In most units you're talking thousands of acres of land. What about e-scouting? Does that count? If not, why not? It's good enough to travel out of state for a good tag but not good enough for in-state?

Second, there are tons of lottery tags in this state. If you're saying that you should only apply for units you're familiar with it means you're saying that your already slim chances are made even more slim by limiting the ones you're "supposed" to apply for.

Lastly, the odds of these drawings is ludicrously low, why wouldn't you encourage your fellow hunters to apply and then if you happen to be familiar with the unit, offer to help the person out? If you want people who draw to be familiar with the unit - here's an idea: go out and show them some locations to help them make their drawing a success. I'd prefer a hunting community filling tags over a hunting community eating tags.

You are the one lamenting the low success rate and the difficulty in finding animals.  I think what you are keying in on is that success depends on familiarity and a special tag does not necessarily mean greater success. You/we now know the success rate is 14% not 3% like you first thought...  If you believe those to be low why did you put in for the draw?

I have not hunted that area so i have no real insight on it specifically. I wish you the best luck in the late season and hope it turns into a fun adventure.

[Bob33]

I've participated in many special permit hunts over the years, and I can't think of one where I felt that I was mislead about what to expect. I did not harvest an animal in several of them, but the experience was better than a general season hunt would have been in nearly all of them.

A lot of research can be done before applying. The WDFW website can provide information on draw odds and harvest rates in prior years. Tools like onX mapping software can provide some idea of access. Google Earth can show terrain. Posting a question on Hunt WA of former permit holders can give some sense of the opportunities.

Sometimes factors outside of anyone's control like a fire can affect the hunt, but one can usually make an informed decision whether or not to apply, and what should be expected based on the research.

[ljsommer]

Whoa hold up fellas. I wasn't complaining about anything. As I made very clear in the beginning, I was trying to understand the data *from WDFW itself* as it pertained to permits in two neighboring units. Bobcat kindly came on here and corrected me and gave me a link to the correct hunt data, and that was very enlightening and I thanked him for it. 14% is pretty good in my book and I am excited about the tag.

The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

[cb1989]

The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

When people say that it, it's not being said defensively like "if you don't know it, you're not allowed to hunt it." It's meant to be a helpful warning - that if you don't know an area, and you draw a permit to hunt it expecting success because it's a "special permit," you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening. Personally I wouldn't be wasting application dollars and points on something I didn't already know well. Drawing a tag without preparation is like signing up for a marathon and thinking just because you bought the shoes you're good to go.

And by the way... whoever told you that e-scouting counts as scouting for out of state hunts is incorrect. Or if you are just reaching that conclusion from seeing guys like Cam Hanes strut all over the west shooting bulls in every state he hunts... I can tell you there's a lot going on behind the scenes you aren't seeing. OnX and gohunt would like you to think it's true... but it's not. If you don't believe that, buy a tag for Idaho next year, prep for it with your computer, and then come back and let me know if it's the game rich garden of eden some guys on here would have you believe.

[ljsommer]

The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

When people say that it, it's not being said defensively like "if you don't know it, you're not allowed to hunt it." It's meant to be a helpful warning - that if you don't know an area, and you draw a permit to hunt it expecting success because it's a "special permit," you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening. Personally I wouldn't be wasting application dollars and points on something I didn't already know well. Drawing a tag without preparation is like signing up for a marathon and thinking just because you bought the shoes you're good to go.

And by the way... whoever told you that e-scouting counts as scouting for out of state hunts is incorrect. Or if you are just reaching that conclusion from seeing guys like Cam Hanes strut all over the west shooting bulls in every state he hunts... I can tell you there's a lot going on behind the scenes you aren't seeing. OnX and gohunt would like you to think it's true... but it's not. If you don't believe that, buy a tag for Idaho next year, prep for it with your computer, and then come back and let me know if it's the game rich garden of eden some guys on here would have you believe.

Great post thank you, that's a new perspective and I appreciate it!

[bobcat]

The good news is the permit you have is relatively easy to draw, so hunt it, and learn it this year, and draw the permit again in a year or two, and your chance of being successful then will be much better. And in the meantime continue hunting the same areas for bulls during the general season.

[Special T]

The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

When people say that it, it's not being said defensively like "if you don't know it, you're not allowed to hunt it." It's meant to be a helpful warning - that if you don't know an area, and you draw a permit to hunt it expecting success because it's a "special permit," you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening. Personally I wouldn't be wasting application dollars and points on something I didn't already know well. Drawing a tag without preparation is like signing up for a marathon and thinking just because you bought the shoes you're good to go.

And by the way... whoever told you that e-scouting counts as scouting for out of state hunts is incorrect. Or if you are just reaching that conclusion from seeing guys like Cam Hanes strut all over the west shooting bulls in every state he hunts... I can tell you there's a lot going on behind the scenes you aren't seeing. OnX and gohunt would like you to think it's true... but it's not. If you don't believe that, buy a tag for Idaho next year, prep for it with your computer, and then come back and let me know if it's the game rich garden of eden some guys on here would have you believe.

well said

[ljsommer]

yeah that was a great post because it helped me see a new side of it, and I like seeing new perspectives.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

As for not applying for tags in an area you aren't familiar with, I'd guess that most people who apply for sheep or goat or even moose tags aren't intimately familiar with the areas they apply for.   Why should it be any different for deer or elk?

[Stein]

Some people only want to hunt a certain area and only apply for that tag.  I tend to bounce around a bunch as the tags can go up and down dramatically and if you only know a certain area and the tags drop 50% one year and 75% the next year you are basically up a creek.

With a little research, you can do a pretty good job at finding decent tags to apply for.  It is fact that WDFW throws a bunch of them out for revenue or to basically pumpkin patch the landscape and keep animals out of an area.  I've been on a few of those and it's not fun, but a learning experience.

There are also tags for which the experience is good but finding the target animal is next to impossible.

Finally, there are the good tags but you didn't notice that there are 12 other seasons going on in there at the same time and even though you have a great tag, it isn't a good experience or reasonable odds of finding what you are looking for.

The biggest problem by far is the odds are getting comical for anything worth applying for.

[idaho guy]

The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

When people say that it, it's not being said defensively like "if you don't know it, you're not allowed to hunt it." It's meant to be a helpful warning - that if you don't know an area, and you draw a permit to hunt it expecting success because it's a "special permit," you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening. Personally I wouldn't be wasting application dollars and points on something I didn't already know well. Drawing a tag without preparation is like signing up for a marathon and thinking just because you bought the shoes you're good to go.

And by the way... whoever told you that e-scouting counts as scouting for out of state hunts is incorrect. Or if you are just reaching that conclusion from seeing guys like Cam Hanes strut all over the west shooting bulls in every state he hunts... I can tell you there's a lot going on behind the scenes you aren't seeing. OnX and gohunt would like you to think it's true... but it's not. If you don't believe that, buy a tag for Idaho next year, prep for it with your computer, and then come back and let me know if it's the game rich garden of eden some guys on here would have you believe.

   

  The e-scouting rage is one I don't get at all. I think its really helpful on google earth to check out what's over the next ridge I never quite made it too. Or trails/old roads maybe I didn't know about in places I have put boots on the ground and already know. As far as putting in for permits where I have never been I do it quite a bit. I also put in for permits that aren't famous for huge animals but have decent odds. Sometimes its better than I expected and sometimes its not. I had an elk tag this year that was pretty humbling and I didn't fill although there were great animals around. The benefit of having some knowledge of the ground and even some local connections shouldn't be underestimated. I am still glad I put in for it because I just like seeing(and getting to hunt) different country. Depending on where you're at different parts of Idaho are almost like different planets. I think if you are going to put in for an unknown unit be prepared to give it 110% and work harder than you would at home in a spot you know. I think the only thing that upsets people is taking a tag out of the pool and then not knowing anything about it-  some people wont really do it justice. I don't like taking the tag out of someone else's pocket(who put in for years and really knows it) to basically not hunt it or at least not give it a great effort. I would hunt that permit as hard as you can since you drew it. I have learned tons about a lot of Idaho drawing "unknown"areas and 90 percent of the time its paid off well. When I draw a "special permit" I don't know I am planning on working HARDER and spending more time at it then I do with an otc tag at home where I have hunted for 30 years. The benefit is usually a higher quality animal and a better hunt but not always an EASIER hunt. Some permits are a waste of time so you should research BEFORE you apply for an unkown unit. This is where you can learn a lot on the computer with harvest rates etc.           

[ljsommer]

I appreciate the response! If it makes anyone feel better, as soon as I drew this tag I started doing my homework, made a couple friendly contacts who pointed me in a beginning direction, and I've since spent many (12+) days out there and plan to spend many more. I've got elk on cams but not eyes-on. Hopefully that's next.

[Chesterdog]

I was able to get written permission to hunt a landowners property on Anderson Island about 10 years ago by calling the local fire department and asking the fire chief if he knew any locals that were pro-hunting and would allow a respectful young eagle scout to take a deer off their property.  Simple enough. 

This year I applied for, and drew a special hunt to harvest a second deer Anderson Island and foolishly hoped to do the same thing, however the landowner sold her property and the fire department trick didn't work (new staff?).  I can't get permission from anyone to save my life.  Things changed and I now have a useless permit.  I wouldn't blame WDFW for it though.  They warned me not to apply unless I had land or permission already secured.

[Piscatory_5]

The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

When people say that it, it's not being said defensively like "if you don't know it, you're not allowed to hunt it." It's meant to be a helpful warning - that if you don't know an area, and you draw a permit to hunt it expecting success because it's a "special permit," you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening. Personally I wouldn't be wasting application dollars and points on something I didn't already know well. Drawing a tag without preparation is like signing up for a marathon and thinking just because you bought the shoes you're good to go.

And by the way... whoever told you that e-scouting counts as scouting for out of state hunts is incorrect. Or if you are just reaching that conclusion from seeing guys like Cam Hanes strut all over the west shooting bulls in every state he hunts... I can tell you there's a lot going on behind the scenes you aren't seeing. OnX and gohunt would like you to think it's true... but it's not. If you don't believe that, buy a tag for Idaho next year, prep for it with your computer, and then come back and let me know if it's the game rich garden of eden some guys on here would have you believe.

Great post thank you, that's a new perspective and I appreciate it!

Do you have a weyerhaeuser access permit? There is a lot of green diamond property as well as a few other timber companies land that you can access(some by foot only) in addition to the NF land and state land. Rayonier general permit may be something to look into as well.