Solutions seeking problems.

[Colville]

With respect to the draw only thread, I  didn't see anywhere where the "problem" was specifically and factually laid out. The "solution" was draw only and we are left to assume that it'll "fix" the "problem"... whatever it is.

FW says our herd numbers are in decent shape. We do not have Idaho/WY/CO's habitat quality or quantity. We won't be putting out 220 class bucks in the ALW regardless of the management technique.

Almost all of those in favor of draw only are primarily interested in hunting trophy class animals. Why should that be a priority? Does your desire to hunt older deer outweigh the desire of a guy to hunt every year who's willing to shoot 3 pts? I think it's especially notable when you realize that you have to steal opportunity from several of those guys in order to provide it to the "quality" fanatics. There is no way to maintain opportunity while restricting hunting to quality, none. You have to take from what is the majority of hunters in order to provide quality to the fewer of them.

"Improve our herds" is a punch line. There's nothing wrong with maximizing opportunity as long as overall pop numbers and buck doe ratios are maintained. The science side of the population can be met in either quality or quantity modes and claims that quality hunt restrictions are required for herd health is flatly untrue. Be honest, this is about wants not needs. There are numerous methods to reducing impact; season timing, boundaries, length, weapon etc. This is a battle between hunters. Between those who think the resources should be managed to provide them with the best quality and those who want to hunt feeling that not being able to hunt in exchange for improved quality when you do is not a good trade off.

I have passed on any number of deer any number of times, but I want to hunt every year. Telling me that I'll have to keep my kids interested in hunting while telling them they'll get to do it every other or every 3rd year is not a recipe for hunter recruitment. Cutting Special apps to 2 choices, restricting hunting days if you put in... any other number of methods could reduce those willing to go after the special tags and I see no problem with that. I am however not pleased with the prospect that all hunters will have to give up their annual tradition because the vocal minority of hunters wants to hunt bigger deer less frequently.

BTW, much like Elk in north of Hwy 2. The state can decide to "fix" the whitetail issue in the areas they are growing into very easily by making that an any deer whitetail unit or even an extra tag any whitetail unit. It doesn't solve everything but it also goes to another bias... mule deer are everything the other deer are what we do after we hunt our blessed mule deer.

I have no problem with guys hunting trophy's. I love their pics. I love their drive and passion. I know many and in many respects I am one. I'm a little amazed they often seem to feel they are the real hunters and that they are entitled to the resource and the loser fork shooters should shut the hell up and take what they're given. Hunter recruitment is pis-poor and LE and draw only management only makes things worse. I'm open to all kinds of discussion on how to reduce the number of guys going for individual tags of high desire I'm just not impressed at all with the unstated given: quality hunt supporters have the high ground. They don't.

[boneaddict]

I agree wiht everything you said except the last paragraph.  I am a trophy hunter, but I hunt yearly.  I like the way the state does it in regards to trying to spread the wealth.  I actually think they do a decent job of it.  I like the idea of options for everyone.  You can meat hunt for spike only or go after big bull.  You can also go to different areas in the state and try your luck there.  You can choose weapon and have a shot at a cow.  I think they could improve things by fixing the limited draws some, example, one choice instead of 4 for each game animal.  Things like that.  One choice for once in a lifetime entry, and one for deer or elk, your choice.  Those are things other states do, and I'm not really impressed with it, but it would make odds better.  Money up front, would weed out some of the not so serious people, but that borderlines the money sport issue.  They need to fix the indian issue, try to get some management of the wolves, keep purchasing required habitat before it all has homes on it, increase enforcement, and they could surely tune the draw system a ton. 

[tlbradford]

Is it just me, or do other folks think the whitetail and muley herds could use about twice the number of doe permits, to improve the buck/doe ratio?

[boneaddict]

I'd lay off the muley does.  We need to get the population up.  There were areas on the winter range last year that were never touched and could have supported more animals easily, there just weren't the numbers.  I don't care what the count says at the WDFW, but the area I frequent the herds are all down.  Whitetails should be fair game.  They rebound so fast, and by the looks of it have come out of the black tongue thing pretty fast.

[jackelope]

an additional whitetail doe tag option, or permit even, would be great...and good eats too.
we could kill 4 or maybe even 5 deer(can't remember) in new york where i lived if you hunted with rifle, archery and muzz. we would each take a couple does and a buck every year and my grandfathers place was still crawling with them every year.

[cipryan]

I am headed back to MT over Veterans Day weekend for a doe slaughter.  I am aiming to fill all eight tags.  Fill the freezer and a few friends.  Maybe I will be able to cap it off with a buck for number 8.

[Colville]

Whitetails aren't a problem everywhere, but I think you could draw a line north south along the 20/30 mile meadows area and be very liberal with shooting them anywhere to the west of that line to keep them from really growing strong in traditional mule deer country. I'm sure other's would want to draw that line at hwy 97, but I have enjoyed hunting whitetails in the sinlahekin area.

Bottom line though is that F&G doesn't perceive a herd problem for mule deer in north central so they aren't motivated to do anything about the whitetails. At least they could open a late season for whitetail bucks in this area, not that that will reduce their numbers. Instead of LE late whitetail permits for sinlahekin how bout a 5 day open late season weekdays only? Why not move some of the youth antlerless to whitetail only... anyhow, there's about 50 ways to get at improving mule deer that doesn't require a draw only system.

[Dman]

 "Why not move some of the youth antlerless to whitetail only... anyhow, there's about 50 ways to get at improving mule deer that doesn't require a draw only system."

 Are not the special youth tags draw only??

 The fact by the percentage number's of State draw vs. general hunts is that the State is trending about 1% annual increase in draw only tag hunts and has been trending that way for many years. Most higher level State game poeple will tell you that's where we are headed. It seems Colville's focus is on the NE corner of the State, a very small portion of the huntable land in Wa.. Particularly in Western Washington, I don't see how it would be logical to assume, given the loss of several thousand acres of habitat per week, that we can continue with the same number of general hunts and the same amount of hunting pressure in shrinking areas. It's well documented that State hunter numbers have been declining for years, why is that? Everyone I know who has quit hunting, has done so because of hunting areas that were overcrowded to the point of being dangerous. I also don't understand this 'fear of State owned lands' mentality. Don't people get that those lands are really owned by US, you and me??? We have a certain amount of control and input over how they are used, where a private owner may close his doors, or sell out to a development firm any day of the week.

[jackelope]

Are not the special youth tags draw only??

there's a general youth 10/27-11/4 in gmu's 105-124 for antlerless whiteys open to youths and disabled hunters, oct 13-26 and 11/5-19 same gmus for any whitetail deer, and then 10/13-21 for a whole bunch of units for doe/3pt minimum whitey. see page 17 in the regs.

[huntnphool]

"There is no way to maintain opportunity while restricting hunting to quality, none."

 None? Really? How about starting the season Nov. 1st and running it through the 9th. Still open for 9 days but arguably would see better quality animals. I'm not saying this is a good option but there "is a way"

"Telling me that I'll have to keep my kids interested in hunting while telling them they'll get to do it every other or every 3rd year is not a recipe for hunter recruitment."

 I completley agree

"they often seem to feel they are the real hunters and that they are entitled to the resource and the loser fork shooters should shut the hell up and take what they're given."

 Did I miss something in an earlier post? I don't recall anyone on this site calling anyone a loser or seeing anyone tell someone to "shut the hell up and take what they're given"

 You made some good points, lets not make this site ugly like the others with accusatory false statements;^)......................rf


 

[Colville]

phool, If you allow a general nov season quality for one year is awesome. The kill rate is through the roof then necessitating a large scale restriction in hunting. You can't offer both open seasons and manage it for trophy quality. Something's got to give.

I didn't quote any individual here, nor am I accusing anyone in particular of brow beating meat hunters. I am not new to hunting or hunting web sites. There is a general attitude on the net that people who want to hunt every year and are satisfied with smaller deer are the lesser of our hunters. That is a generalization, but it's not an inaccurate one.

Dman, I am not focussed on the NE at all. My remarks re shooting whitetails aggressively were aimed at the north central herds of mule deer. Why is it that we'll have more pressure all the time necessitating draw only if in fact we are reducing hunters participating every year? Why are our herd numbers stable, even improving, and yet we need to do restrict oportunity? Something doesn't add up. So far in all the discussions all there has been is anecdotal evidence offered as to why this is needed. Before I"m willing to give up hunting every year I need to see that the situation can't be managed with open seasons. My point is that you have both concluded what will happen to herds when it hasn't yet, concluded what is the best way to approach the solution and then given it a fait acompli by saying get used to it, it's what F&G wants to do anyhow.

I'm not willing to concede any of it. If you want to restrict opportunity then I think you have 2 burdens. 1. To prove that there exists a herd population problem that is directly related to our open seasons. 2. that there aren't other means to solve that problem than taking away general seasons. If you do those things with compelling evidence I'll be the first to sign on.

[Dman]

 The rate of hunter participation is not declining nearly as fast as lost opportunity, which was the point I was making as to why folks have quit hunting. I do know there is a limited NE youth season, again, the bulk of the youth State-wide tags are draw only. That point is really moot anyway, as in my original statement I endorsed State-wide doe hunts annually. If you NEED to harvest a deer every year, then yes, eventually I believe folks will need to hunt does every other year, there is also the option of out of State tags if you NEED a buck every year. While in the past I have often gotten a buck every year, I would be willing to sacrifice harvesting a mediocre buck in Washington every year, for harvesting a mature buck every other year and a doe the even-numbered years.

 -D

[huntnphool]

"Why is it that we'll have more pressure all the time necessitating draw only if in fact we are reducing hunters participating every year? Why are our herd numbers stable, even improving, and yet we need to do restrict oportunity? Something doesn't add up."

 That was my point on that other thread, exactly. Something doesn't add up, you are right................rf

 

[boneaddict]

I'd really like to know who thinks our deer herds are stable and improving.  Mule deer specifically.

[huntnphool]

". To prove that there exists a herd population problem that is directly related to our open seasons. 2. that there aren't other means to solve that problem than taking away general seasons."

 Well to part 1, F&G biologists have already said the heard numbers are at a 20 year high in N.Central.

To part 2, they shortened the season two years ago to end on Oct. 21st. I find it hard to believe the numbers increased only in these last two years, which means they had strong numbers and still shortened the season, why? Did they feel they needed to do this fearing the numbers would drop dramatically if they left the season through Oct. 28th?