Free: Contests & Raffles.
If APRs dont work, get rid of them......if they DO work, quit telling us they dont work when we ask for them in region 1, AND you still have them in region 1 se. wa. (whitetail)
So whats YOUR solution?
Some of you arguing could start your suggested improvements by practicing what you preach. It’s pretty easy to keep your finger off the trigger on younger bucks once you decide to. Let the younger hunters just starting out shoot the younger bucks that are generally easier to kill, and let the more experienced hunting groups hold out for the mature bucks. It’ll all average out. I hunt an area where spike and up are legal (mule deer), there’s plenty of opportunity for mature bucks. I can remember as a kid I shot a very small buck. I was as excited as could be. A family member I was hunting with walked up and said “congratulations, now from this point forward we let ones like that walk”. He was excited for me, but also guiding me to be a better hunter in the future. I think if there was more of this, we wouldn’t need people creating laws for us.
Quote from: Blacktail_Slayer on January 22, 2020, 07:52:57 PMMule Deer Antler Point Regs (APRs) Don’t Workhttps://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/cont...VIE0006790.pdf• APRs have been shown to reduce the number and potentially the quality of mature bucks over time.• Long-term use of APRs may target legal bucks that have not realized their full antler growth potential while protecting bucks with low antler growth potential (i.e., hunters select against legal bucks with smaller antlers). Although not validated by research, this is a concern among wildlife professionals and the public.One of the truisms of life is that we get more of what we protect. Do we want more spikes as a percentage of the bucks in a herd? Sometimes we are protecting something different than what we think we are. IME/O protecting spikes results eventually in a herd that has a LOT of big old spikes and mature bucks with small racks and few points. Simple genetics. California had a 2 point or better buck season for decades and resulted in a high percentage of spike bucks and huge gnarly old fork horns, though maybe they always had a lot of spikes in California. I hunted it after 50 years of fork horn or better seasons.In most areas, a healthy 18 month old buck with good genetics will normally be a fork horn, and some will have 3 or more points per side. I'd like to protect THOSE bucks with their exceptional genes rather than spikes. In Texas behind fences, they kill spikes, protect multi-tined young bucks-- and a high percentage of bucks have BIG antlers. I have hunted 4 point or better late mule deer seasons and enjoyed them the most of any deer hunting I've done, even though success was low. Protect spikes? With respect, my opinion differs.
Mule Deer Antler Point Regs (APRs) Don’t Workhttps://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/cont...VIE0006790.pdf• APRs have been shown to reduce the number and potentially the quality of mature bucks over time.• Long-term use of APRs may target legal bucks that have not realized their full antler growth potential while protecting bucks with low antler growth potential (i.e., hunters select against legal bucks with smaller antlers). Although not validated by research, this is a concern among wildlife professionals and the public.
If I had the POWER!Regs iN NE WASHINGTON gmu 121/117Would be as followsMule deer stays the same 3pt minModern firearmYouth/ whitetail doe hunt early season/late buck any buck65/disabled /Any buck/early and late seasonEverybody eles 2pt min/whitetailArchery First 10 days doe season/whitetail2pt min rest of seasonMuzzleloader Any buck.I believe if you wanna sell tags , you have to sell opportunity,with sustainable population in mind I'm not all for discouraged hunting or taking hunting opportunity but to create opportunity with some conservative regulations that look out for population for the next hunting season.On top of this plan would be no doe permits for whitetail/mule deer.And season length would stay the same.Everybody has different ideas of what deer mangement should look. Then with this plan anything could be subject to change based on harvest reports next year.ExampleYouth might go to a any buck one year,back to doe the next.Muzzleloader might go 2pt min/then back to any buck the next year.Just based on harvest reports to ensure doe harvest is low/spike buck is kept low.This plan allows most users to have oppertunity at some meat .Example 65/disabled can road hunt shoot a spike.Bow hunters get a doe season but have to do it at the beginning and not the end of season.Muzzleloader opportunities don't really change at all.
Quote from: hunter399 on January 24, 2020, 05:59:52 AMIf I had the POWER!Regs iN NE WASHINGTON gmu 121/117Would be as followsMule deer stays the same 3pt minModern firearmYouth/ whitetail doe hunt early season/late buck any buck65/disabled /Any buck/early and late seasonEverybody eles 2pt min/whitetailArchery First 10 days doe season/whitetail2pt min rest of seasonMuzzleloader Any buck.I believe if you wanna sell tags , you have to sell opportunity,with sustainable population in mind I'm not all for discouraged hunting or taking hunting opportunity but to create opportunity with some conservative regulations that look out for population for the next hunting season.On top of this plan would be no doe permits for whitetail/mule deer.And season length would stay the same.Everybody has different ideas of what deer mangement should look. Then with this plan anything could be subject to change based on harvest reports next year.ExampleYouth might go to a any buck one year,back to doe the next.Muzzleloader might go 2pt min/then back to any buck the next year.Just based on harvest reports to ensure doe harvest is low/spike buck is kept low.This plan allows most users to have oppertunity at some meat .Example 65/disabled can road hunt shoot a spike.Bow hunters get a doe season but have to do it at the beginning and not the end of season.Muzzleloader opportunities don't really change at all.Good thing youre not in power.......2 pt mini ? I see less 2 pts than any other configuration, and you must not be getting the point, our herds cant support any buck any more, period, or doe harvest and why do old guys need to kill does (Im 65 and you couldnt get me to shoot a doe) ? You need meat ? Its cheaper at the store. Many of the 18mo old bucks here are small 4pts so why any buck.....hence 4pt rule. Youth are the only user group who need any buck, and that needs to be general season only.
Quote from: Blacktail_Slayer on January 22, 2020, 07:52:57 PMMule Deer Antler Point Regs (APRs) Don’t Workhttps://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/cont...VIE0006790.pdf• APRs have been shown to reduce the number and potentially the quality of mature bucks over time.• Long-term use of APRs may target legal bucks that have not realized their full antler growth potential while protecting bucks with low antler growth potential (i.e., hunters select against legal bucks with smaller antlers). Although not validated by research, this is a concern among wildlife professionals and the public. Do we want more spikes as a percentage of the bucks in a herd? those spikes arent going to stay spikes IME/O protecting spikes results eventually in a herd that has a LOT of big old spikes what? Big old spikes? Never heard of such a thing Simple genetics. a bucks antlers at 1.5 yr old doesnt tell you what they will be when he reaches maturity. Spikes can catch up to the bigger yearlings after a couple years. Often small racked yearlings are a result of poor nutrition or being born later than other bucks. Being born later often being caused by a rut that drags out too long, does being bred in 2nd or even 3rd estrous, which is often caused by a poor buck to doe ratio and buck age structure. Protecting the most vulnerable (youngest) bucks via apr is a way to counter this. A better buck to doe ratio and age structure results in a shorter more intense rut. Does get bred in a shorter time period, fawn drop is saturated helping more to survive predation, and bucks dont wear themselves out rutting an extra month, so they go into winter in better condition, resulting in less buck winter kill, further improving buck to doe ratio and buck age structure. Also a better buck to doe ratio and buck age structure means more rubs, more scrapes, more daylight rut activity, in other words, a better hunting experience In most areas, a healthy 18 month old buck with good genetics will normally be a fork horn, and some will have 3 or more points per side. I'd like to protect THOSE bucks with their exceptional genes rather than spikes. once again, many things go into play that determine a 1.5 yr old bucks rack, its not just geneticsIn Texas behind fences, they kill spikes, protect multi-tined young bucks-- and a high percentage of bucks have BIG antlers. are you talking high fence or low fence? High fence operations have really no bearing on low fence free range deer management. So lets talk low fence. Just because people cull spikes doesnt mean they know what theyre doing. They do it because thats what dad did. He did it because thats what grandpa did. In no way can you determine a bucks genetic potential by its first rack. Also, they get half their genes from their mother, can you see her "antler genetics?" And if were talking low fence, especially in a place like texas where rut can run late, theres a very good chance that the "cull buck" spikes theyre killing are only about a month or so from dispersing from their natal range. Whitetail bucks disperse at that age. Those wouldnt be sticking around to breed on that property. Also, the big bucks on these highly managed private texas ranches, well, theyre big chunks of private land with highly regulated hunter access, food plots, feeders and a lack of arge predators. The size these bucks reach can largely be attributed to age and nutrition rather than genetics. The cull buck thing has been thoroughly debunked. .
Well, well, check out the "Other big game thread"-hungry cougar topic, reply #41(I believe).This is the problem folks, this is the REAL problem. If they would address it, tackle it and aggressively do something about it then this all goes away, folks could go out and kill a nice little 2 point meat buck if they liked or could hold out for a big fella. Younger folks could go out and kill a nice little spike or 2 point for their first buck like my son did years ago and as they got older could be more selective, heck, every once in awhile they could even sell doe tags to help reduce herd size and put more money in the coffers. WDFW would sell more tags, it would open up more options for them through special hunts, doe hunts, trophy units/areas and so on and so on, the options could be huge, but sadly that would take healthy deer herds like we had 25 years ago, pre predator boom, instead we just watch our herds continue to slide and sit around debating the more and more restrictions or take-aways they want to hit us as hunters with. Im not kidding, the biggest, most destructive force that is destroying our deer herds is predators, and number 1 on that list is cougars. With a drastic reduction to cougars and bears in places like the Methow, even with the wolf out there, I believe and others I know and respect believe that we could have close to all that which I mentioned above within a handful-8 years.... ... sorry, carry on
Quote from: bigmacc on January 24, 2020, 12:59:30 PMWell, well, check out the "Other big game thread"-hungry cougar topic, reply #41(I believe).This is the problem folks, this is the REAL problem. If they would address it, tackle it and aggressively do something about it then this all goes away, folks could go out and kill a nice little 2 point meat buck if they liked or could hold out for a big fella. Younger folks could go out and kill a nice little spike or 2 point for their first buck like my son did years ago and as they got older could be more selective, heck, every once in awhile they could even sell doe tags to help reduce herd size and put more money in the coffers. WDFW would sell more tags, it would open up more options for them through special hunts, doe hunts, trophy units/areas and so on and so on, the options could be huge, but sadly that would take healthy deer herds like we had 25 years ago, pre predator boom, instead we just watch our herds continue to slide and sit around debating the more and more restrictions or take-aways they want to hit us as hunters with. Im not kidding, the biggest, most destructive force that is destroying our deer herds is predators, and number 1 on that list is cougars. With a drastic reduction to cougars and bears in places like the Methow, even with the wolf out there, I believe and others I know and respect believe that we could have close to all that which I mentioned above within a handful-8 years.... ... sorry, carry on Don't get me wrong I totally agree.But it would take 8 years of cougar study and reports ect .before you would see any progress on cougar harvest.They have a new cougar plan coming out right now you might be interested in .But I wouldn't count it as some magical fix all.
