20-21 salmon seasons

[trophyhunt]

Perhaps we should make the fish all wear different colored sweaters so they can let the Washington fish go. (Pink sweaters, I imagine)

They know exactly where the WA fish are caught.  It isn't a mystery.   

Skillet - Just giving you a hard time (although you are a low-holer!).  You know where I stand on all this.  And I agree, anyone that eats a fish stick or McFish type sandwich deserves 30 lashes.

Absolutely.

FYI, WSU is a stand-up guy and although he and I disagree on much of the King fishery management, he is whip-smart and I always learn something when chatting with him.  He has my respect.

And because of that I can rarely resist piping up with my "low-holer" commentary for some entertainment, especially when we're waiting for another boat to clear out so we can load on more bait. 

WSU might be solid guy, but man is he ugly!!

[WSU]

Perhaps we should make the fish all wear different colored sweaters so they can let the Washington fish go. (Pink sweaters, I imagine)

They know exactly where the WA fish are caught.  It isn't a mystery.   

Skillet - Just giving you a hard time (although you are a low-holer!).  You know where I stand on all this.  And I agree, anyone that eats a fish stick or McFish type sandwich deserves 30 lashes.

Absolutely.

FYI, WSU is a stand-up guy and although he and I disagree on much of the King fishery management, he is whip-smart and I always learn something when chatting with him.  He has my respect.

And because of that I can rarely resist piping up with my "low-holer" commentary for some entertainment, especially when we're waiting for another boat to clear out so we can load on more bait. 

WSU might be solid guy, but man is he ugly!!

Ouch!

[Stein]

Here is a question for you guys, why are ESA fish treated differently than ESA land mammals?

By this, I mean that each river's fish are treated as separate and only the native fish of that river count?  This really limits what we can do and ensures that some things will never get off the list as we can't do much to help them recover.

On land, we manage different regions, but we relocate animals, trap them, whatever and nobody cares that the ID wolf isn't genetically from ID, they just want a wolf in ID.  Shouldn't the same strategy occur in the water?  If one river is in trouble, put more fish in there.

With fish, our only hope is hatchery production, but we can't pump hatchery fish into the Stilly system because they aren't native.

It seems that could be a possible way out of this mess, put some lawsuits up to test this or maybe it already has?  Treat a coho as a species and pump and dump into rivers with low returns.  Right now we are doing the opposite.

[WSU]

We do "pump" hatchery fish into the Stilly and have for decades.  It's not a harvest program but one intended to save that run of fish.  That's the only reason there are kings there now.  Due to habitat degradation, the fish can't replace themselves (two spawning fish do not create two returning fish so the run shrinks with each generation). 

I put "pump" in quotes because not many fish are released.  They are limited by the number of returning fish that can be used for broodstock.

[Stein]

That's what I'm saying, why can't we use different broodstock?  I don't understand with fish why each river's fish are treated essentially like a separate species from a management perspective.

On land, I don't think there is any similar treatment, nobody talks about what genetics are in bears, eagles, wolves, whatever.  They are either there or not.

[WSU]

I'm not an ESA expert but I think you misunderstand how things are managed. 

First, land animals are at times managed by subspecies or "distinct population segment."  It's a fact-specific analysis. 

Second, salmon aren't all managed river to river and are often managed by geographic area (for example, PS Chinook, LCR tules, Grays Harbor chum, south PS chum, etc.). 

Another point, and one where Skillet and I disagree, is that there ARE genetic differences between populations.  For example, Elwha Chinook were over 100 lbs.  Upper Columbia "June hogs" were too.  Different environments produce different genetics and one size doesn't fit all. 

Even with restored habitat, or in the case of the Elwha, relatively pristine habitat, those fish will never return.  They need five, six, or seven years of feeding in the ocean.  The way we currently harvest, that'll never happen.  Those fish will be caught before they can survive that long in the ocean.

None of this dictates a specific outcome.  Fish management is political at its roots.  It's ultimately a political question of whether we should try to save Stilly Chinook that cannot repopulate themselves or whether we should give up and move on.  We've already destroyed the habitat and we are clearly not willing to bear the burden of repairing it. 

It doesn't have to be an either-or situation either.  There is ample room between no hatchery fish and simply foregoing any recover/sustaining of wild fish.  Right now, fish management is not restoring the listed runs or providing for maximized harvest.  We're really just spinning our wheels without doing either efficiently. 

Except perhaps providing McFishes.

[Stein]

I'm pretty sure I don't understand, so I'm with you on that one.

My understanding is that this year, there were two runs in PS that really caused havoc, the Stilly and one somewhere in Hood Canal.  Thus, even though the Puget Sound returns is roughly predicted to be ballpark similar to last year, the management seasons are WAY different.  This was due only to those two runs, not the PS return as a whole.

So, my understanding is that they are not managed by a geographic area, but by a specific river.  Further, it's the "NATIVE" fish of that river, not even the total return to that river.  So, we have restrictions all over PS because of the native return to one river.

Maybe I'm wrong?  I don't see a parallel on land where we differentiate between the wolves that naturally migrated or reproduced vs the wolves we transplanted.  They are all just wolves from a counting and ESA perspective.

With fish, it seems very different.  We count every river as a separate geography and then further divide the fish into hatchery and "native" and base seasons on the "native" returns (ESA listed fish) for the two rivers in PS that are in the most trouble.

[WSU]

That's pretty close.  They also manage for hatchery fish in the Stilly (oddly enough I believe that was the limiter this year).  The problem with the stilly and mid-Hood Canal fish is were are talking about damn few fish.  Last year area 7 was shut down for less that a few fish.  Stilly fish are genetically distinct, including the summer and fall fish as I understand it.  WDFW, in their infinite wisdom, agreed to these harvest conservation burdens.  It was a joke at the time and is a joke now.  People went nuts when WDFW announced what they had done (I don't think they really understood the implications until it was too late) and WDFW went ahead anyway.  Because a small handful of theoretical, paper fish (meaning 1 or 2 or 3) can make or break the ability to fish, expect this to be the norm.  Those fish aren't coming back and WDFW has agreed to lock us into this position by agreeing to a ten year management plan.

Ultimately, WDFW flat doesn't care all that much how NOF turns out as long as they can get it over with.  If they can appease the masses, fine.  If not, that's fine too.

[Stein]

So, why can't we put out more hatchery fish in these places?  Is it the broodstock limitations on those genes?

If so, I think it's time to admit we messed up and gear up for a battle to change it back to regional (PS wide or PS North/South).  Managing fish on a per river basis would be the ultimate way to ensure there was widespread closures forever.

The only other option would be to hope one net somewhere snags the 34 that were going to return.

[WSU]

Again, too fact specific to answer.  Your reading could start here: https://fortress.wa.gov/dfw/score/score/hatcheries/hatcheries_reform.jsp

[Stein]

All the links are broken from the new website rollout.  From what that link show, it confirms that we somehow think hatchery fish and "wild" fish are different, thus we're doomed.  It's like waiting for bison to naturally repopulate their entire former range.

In the end, my BC idea is sounding better and better.  The dollar is 1.409 right now, just need them to open the border back up.

[WSU]

All the links are broken from the new website rollout.  From what that link show, it confirms that we somehow think hatchery fish and "wild" fish are different, thus we're doomed.  It's like waiting for bison to naturally repopulate their entire former range.

In the end, my BC idea is sounding better and better.  The dollar is 1.409 right now, just need them to open the border back up.

I'm going in August, right smack in the middle of the short B10 season.  See you there!

[Stein]

Any recommendations on some places to drag a boat to?  I'm looking for hotels or resorts where they might be helpful to a BC newbie who knows how to fish but not where.

[WSU]

Let me think about it.  What boat, budget, and do you want to fish the ocean or not?  PM is fine.