Should Washington Move to a Draw Only Management for Yakima, Colockum, and Blues

[villajac29]

Here is my main beef with all of this Jacob. You keep trying to sell this as some beneficial thing for the herds and for all hunters. The simple fact is the herds aren't dying off. They just aren't. WDFW need to get better at counting elk and get permit numbers back up to where they should be.

As for the quality experience,  you cannot take what you feel is quality and push it on others. Hunting every 5-10 years isn't acceptable. Add in the inevitable influx of NR hunters and it could be longer.  I love big mature animals but I also enjoy my elk meat every year.  Plenty of other ways to get better draw odds without destroying our hunting heritage.

They aren't dying off they just are suppressed. The truth is you can't just count your way back to 2014 numbers. It's not the same as it was and changing the number for the sake of it isn't gonna fix bad recruitment. They aren't that bad at counting I promise you...

I promise you I'm not pushing my idea of quality on others, read my post before this. If most hunters want the system as is I will support that, but I need to see accurate data to see what the majority really want. I don't think this poll does that but I think it is attainable. You could cap non-resident hunters like every other state does and benefits from. I think most people would be happy with a 3.5 year old 5 point that is why I think it is ridiculous that bulls are escaping to 10,11, and 12 years old under the current system. We don't need every bull to be 330"+. It would be nice to manage for a couple here and there for people who like that stuff but there is a middle ground. There's still strong hunting heritage in draw only state. That doesn't go away unless we let it...

So we have to agree with you or we don't know what we are talking about? You are grudgingly willing to side with us if we all want something else. But only if we provide empirical evidence (even though you don't) I think you may have a bit of tunnel vision. You know what you want and are twisting everything to fit that outcome.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

It wouldn’t be that grudgingly. I haven’t hunted the east side in 2 years, and get resident prices in Oregon for being military. I’m gonna be okay. The things that get on my nerve is people pointing the finger at things they can’t change and saying “it’s their fault”. I’m sure I’m being effected by confirmation bias but I promise I’m doing my best to not be. I just thing that agreeing on something... anything is better than just fighting against each other and not telling the commission what we actually want as hunters. The loud minority can screw it up for the majority and I don’t want to do that. I’m trying my best to create a community where hunters can come vote on their opinion and whatever we can agree upon I’ll take to the commission but unless people get involved it’s not gonna go anywhere. My opinion matters little in this discussion just trying to offer alternative thought processes.

[villajac29]

I haven't gone completely through this thread but what herds/units is he talking about? Does he want to manage all herds/units on East side the same as if they are one and thinks ALL have the same issues and problems?

I keep hearing by most on here that the Blues are in trouble and will believe that since I know nothing of the Blues. Also hear the Yakima herds are having issues by some on here and will not comment on those as I do not hunt them either but sounds like Karl thinks they are doing fine and that is a good enough opinion for me. I will go with someone spending tons of times in the hills before I will go with the biologists that sit at their desks and push numbers around, especially since I have never seen one of our local biologist in the field.

But as far as Manastash (Observatory), Taneum (Peaches Ridge), Teanaway and Colockum units, they are just fine. Cutting the permits in the Manastash and Taneum is a joke. The herds in these four units are doing fine, cows, calves and all age class of bulls.

I spend a ton of time in the hills nine months out of the year as my job affords it as I just work in the summer months. From January through April for the last 30 years I have been in these units almost every single day watching Elk and their movements and I have not once seen a biologist on the ground and I know who they are. I have seen them flying around in helos occasionally and they are never out there until noonish or later when the bulls are already bedded down in the timber for the day. Sure they can fly around down low in the winter and count their herds of cows, calves and younger bulls but if they want to count their mature bulls (even on big winter years) they need to get up a hell of a lot earlier and strap on some snowshoes, they would be quite surprised how many mature bulls there are and what never comes down to the winter welfare elk in feed lots. We also do not see them flying in the higher elevations where all these big lonely bulls are wintering and that may be due to the weather or danger of up drafts? One year they showed up at 1PM landed in the snow and talked to me. They asked me what I was doing and if I had seen any bulls? I asked them what they were doing? They said "counting mature bulls so they could figure out their branch bull numbers for the upcoming season" This happened on April 1st LOL

Lots of complaining about hunting sucks for spike bulls but why are there always a bunch of spikes running around after hunting season and in our feedlots and around the outskirts all winter.

Hunting elk every year is a tradition in our huge family and we always fill most of our kids spike tags and when we do get lucky and draw a special branched antlered tag we have a great hunt and always fill the tag with a smoker bull. If we do not draw a special branched tag we can always go hunt branched bulls in the any elk units. We live on a ranch and have cattle but we would rather eat elk and fill our freezers with cow tags, OTC spikes and the occasional mature bull. Getting out hunting elk every year with family and friends is what I live for.

Leave it alone and go back to more bull tags in the Manastash (Observatory) and Taneum (Peaches Ridge) cause the four units mentioned above have plenty of mature bulls and cutting the tags is ridiculous.

Maybe there are issues in some units but certainly not in all of them, managing them all the same by taking OTC hunting away from everyone and only being able to hunt elk every three to five years is BS. I like hunting elk and eating spikes with the slim chance of hunting mature bulls.

WDFW and their biologist do not and can not manage themselves let alone our elk herds. For years they weren't giving out enough permits for mature bulls in the Colockum and they were dying of old age, they didn't believe any of us locals on what they had up there. They finally started giving out more tags then started cutting them in the other units.

We have some great elk hunting in this state and IMO when you draw a tag you have a better chance of killing a smoker bull then any other state and I have killed and hunted in a lot of the other Western states for elk.

You can't and shouldn't manage all the Eastside elk units the same with drawing every 3 to 5 years to hunt elk. I'm all for figuring out a system that will give us all a better chance to draw more often but shutting down OTC hunting of elk is not the answer.

Start killing more predators is a great start for all of our ungulates. And more scouting then hunting will notch your tags.

I respect your dedication to these elk and you seem like an impressive hunter. I will address issues I saw when reading.

I can’t speak to what the biologists were doing on April 1st looking for bulls... that seems completely ridiculous I agree. Also if bulls are reaching old age and dying there is a need for more opportunity to be given.

However from what I have understood in my conversations is that bull numbers play little into how tag allocations happen. They are likely off of there bull to cow ratios but they are currently projected to harvest above 100% of  their calf recruitment for the year(counting in other factors). If they have poor recruitment and high spike harvest every year you just can’t give out as many bull tags. You said yourself they are counting cows and calves all day. That is why is because it is a more important metric. Those numbers are much easier to get accurate and if they do get it right they know how many elk are going in so that in turn means you can only take so many out without seeing an overall change in population.

Speaking to your success rates... you are the MINORITY. Not everyone has the chance to watch the elk every day and understand patterns like you and your family. The truth is very few people are successful year to year and as much as you want to protect your niche success it doesn’t improve opportunity for everyone else. The success rates are consistent, which means people continue to not have a chance to harvest. Yes there are varying levels of dedication which plays a huge part but in other states people who aren’t successful here are successful there. I like to see other people’s success maybe you don’t but it doesn’t bode well for getting people involved with hunting. Being selfish with hunting and success will spell the end for involvement and hunting in the long run.

The average draw permit success/tags allotted for the past few seasons is 28.5%. Those are the same people hunting OTC spike and somehow they are more successful. My point is that it is currently not managed for success but it is managed for unlimited spike opportunity. If you changed stuff up you could improve success and opportunity at branch bulls.

Not everyone wants to kill a smoker, most would be happy with a 3.5 year old 5 point. And also haven’t you thought the reason you don’t kill bigger bulls in other areas is management objectives and the fact you can’t spend every day in other states. I’m sorry this idea is attacking your small piece of the pie you’ve made work for tour friends and family but most others aren’t  getting opportunity or success. I’m not trying to make hunting socialistic(that is ridiculous) but it can be managed for more than just the very small minority who find success under the current system.

[Karl Blanchard]

You are so far off on Pinetar its insulting Jacob. He has helped to grow hunting and helped more people harvest animals then you could ever dream of in your lifetime. You cannot come onto a forum such as this without knowing any of the players and try to make assumptions about them, their experience, and knowledge base. Its offensive!

[NOCK NOCK]

I haven't gone completely through this thread but what herds/units is he talking about? Does he want to manage all herds/units on East side the same as if they are one and thinks ALL have the same issues and problems?

I keep hearing by most on here that the Blues are in trouble and will believe that since I know nothing of the Blues. Also hear the Yakima herds are having issues by some on here and will not comment on those as I do not hunt them either but sounds like Karl thinks they are doing fine and that is a good enough opinion for me. I will go with someone spending tons of times in the hills before I will go with the biologists that sit at their desks and push numbers around, especially since I have never seen one of our local biologist in the field.

But as far as Manastash (Observatory), Taneum (Peaches Ridge), Teanaway and Colockum units, they are just fine. Cutting the permits in the Manastash and Taneum is a joke. The herds in these four units are doing fine, cows, calves and all age class of bulls.

I spend a ton of time in the hills nine months out of the year as my job affords it as I just work in the summer months. From January through April for the last 30 years I have been in these units almost every single day watching Elk and their movements and I have not once seen a biologist on the ground and I know who they are. I have seen them flying around in helos occasionally and they are never out there until noonish or later when the bulls are already bedded down in the timber for the day. Sure they can fly around down low in the winter and count their herds of cows, calves and younger bulls but if they want to count their mature bulls (even on big winter years) they need to get up a hell of a lot earlier and strap on some snowshoes, they would be quite surprised how many mature bulls there are and what never comes down to the winter welfare elk in feed lots. We also do not see them flying in the higher elevations where all these big lonely bulls are wintering and that may be due to the weather or danger of up drafts? One year they showed up at 1PM landed in the snow and talked to me. They asked me what I was doing and if I had seen any bulls? I asked them what they were doing? They said "counting mature bulls so they could figure out their branch bull numbers for the upcoming season" This happened on April 1st LOL

Lots of complaining about hunting sucks for spike bulls but why are there always a bunch of spikes running around after hunting season and in our feedlots and around the outskirts all winter.

Hunting elk every year is a tradition in our huge family and we always fill most of our kids spike tags and when we do get lucky and draw a special branched antlered tag we have a great hunt and always fill the tag with a smoker bull. If we do not draw a special branched tag we can always go hunt branched bulls in the any elk units. We live on a ranch and have cattle but we would rather eat elk and fill our freezers with cow tags, OTC spikes and the occasional mature bull. Getting out hunting elk every year with family and friends is what I live for.

Leave it alone and go back to more bull tags in the Manastash (Observatory) and Taneum (Peaches Ridge) cause the four units mentioned above have plenty of mature bulls and cutting the tags is ridiculous.

Maybe there are issues in some units but certainly not in all of them, managing them all the same by taking OTC hunting away from everyone and only being able to hunt elk every three to five years is BS. I like hunting elk and eating spikes with the slim chance of hunting mature bulls.

WDFW and their biologist do not and can not manage themselves let alone our elk herds. For years they weren't giving out enough permits for mature bulls in the Colockum and they were dying of old age, they didn't believe any of us locals on what they had up there. They finally started giving out more tags then started cutting them in the other units.

We have some great elk hunting in this state and IMO when you draw a tag you have a better chance of killing a smoker bull then any other state and I have killed and hunted in a lot of the other Western states for elk.

You can't and shouldn't manage all the Eastside elk units the same with drawing every 3 to 5 years to hunt elk. I'm all for figuring out a system that will give us all a better chance to draw more often but shutting down OTC hunting of elk is not the answer.

Start killing more predators is a great start for all of our ungulates. And more scouting then hunting will notch your tags.

I respect your dedication to these elk and you seem like an impressive hunter. I will address issues I saw when reading.

I can’t speak to what the biologists were doing on April 1st looking for bulls... that seems completely ridiculous I agree. Also if bulls are reaching old age and dying there is a need for more opportunity to be given.

However from what I have understood in my conversations is that bull numbers play little into how tag allocations happen. They are likely off of there bull to cow ratios but they are currently projected to harvest above 100% of  their calf recruitment for the year(counting in other factors). If they have poor recruitment and high spike harvest every year you just can’t give out as many bull tags. You said yourself they are counting cows and calves all day. That is why is because it is a more important metric. Those numbers are much easier to get accurate and if they do get it right they know how many elk are going in so that in turn means you can only take so many out without seeing an overall change in population.

Speaking to your success rates... you are the MINORITY. Not everyone has the chance to watch the elk every day and understand patterns like you and your family. The truth is very few people are successful year to year and as much as you want to protect your niche success it doesn’t improve opportunity for everyone else. The success rates are consistent, which means people continue to not have a chance to harvest. Yes there are varying levels of dedication which plays a huge part but in other states people who aren’t successful here are successful there. I like to see other people’s success maybe you don’t but it doesn’t bode well for getting people involved with hunting. Being selfish with hunting and success will spell the end for involvement and hunting in the long run.

The average draw permit success/tags allotted for the past few seasons is 28.5%. Those are the same people hunting OTC spike and somehow they are more successful. My point is that it is currently not managed for success but it is managed for unlimited spike opportunity. If you changed stuff up you could improve success and opportunity at branch bulls.

Not everyone wants to kill a smoker, most would be happy with a 3.5 year old 5 point. And also haven’t you thought the reason you don’t kill bigger bulls in other areas is management objectives and the fact you can’t spend every day in other states. I’m sorry this idea is attacking your small piece of the pie you’ve made work for tour friends and family but most others aren’t  getting opportunity or success. I’m not trying to make hunting socialistic(that is ridiculous) but it can be managed for more than just the very small minority who find success under the current system.

1. Opportunity…..Has many differing variables. You have your version, but the majority have a different version. I would be guessing, but am confident I am correct in stating that being able to have the chance to hunt (opportunity) is far more important to most than the chance (opportunity) to hunt more mature bulls every 3-5-? years.

2. "which means People continue to not have a chance to harvest"  REALLY    OTC offers every single hunter a chance (opportunity) to harvest, If they don't that's on them.

3. "Not everyone wants to kill a smoker" My guess is again your mostly wrong. Tell me who, that is a regular elk hunter DOESNT want to  kill a big bull? of course we settle for less, but we still want to. More meat/more antlers= more good.


I understand your passion, but feel you are pushing (hard) for your ideals of opportunity. You seem to have an answer for every person that replies to you, and then shoot down their opinion.

Lastly......KARMA. I remember the thread about what happened with you. I am sorry but I put a lot of stock in actions, and yours then(for whatever your reasons) left a bad taste in my memory. These threads (this and another) scream at me.....Jacob wants what Jacob wants...…...not that Jacob is trying to do better for ALL elk hunters. 

[greenhead_killer]

What do they say too, 10% of elk hunters are doing 90% of the killing in the west. Can’t really force opportunity or a chance to harvest.

[Limhangerslayer]

Talking to villajac is like   But Hey, he's hunted for 5 years and has been on a podcast!  He's got it all figured out😂.  If not for A coulple misses I'd be 12 straight years of harvesting an elk here in Washington, none of them branched bulls.  I believe Karl's average is better then that.  Taking the harvesters harvest % over the last ten years would be an interesting number.  But your never going to get that. 

[Pinetar]

I almost didn't post this morning but I really just wanted to bring a little positive spin to what was becoming a doom and gloom post of elk hunting in WA.

Selfish?? Where did that come from Villajac? You don't know me or have any idea who I am. Last season, I spent almost every day during all three season in the field during elk season. Mostly with kids and not just mine, several special tag holders and think I packed my own weapon maybe twice. When my daughter shot her spike there was 5 other legal spikes in the herd, she wanted me to shoot one with my tag and i told her "no I'm good" cause it was her moment not mine and you call me selfish.

Seemed like you were looking for some answers and opinions on WA elk hunting and the draw system? I give you my honest opinion and it doesn't fit your agenda so you pop off and call me selfish.

That was a pretty big statement and I appreciate the kind words but there are a lot of people in this county that know elk better than I. Thanks for having my back Karl, seems like there always has to be that one guy

[Limhangerslayer]

I almost didn't post this morning but I really just wanted to bring a little positive spin to what was becoming a doom and gloom post of elk hunting in WA.

Selfish?? Where did that come from Villajac? You don't know me or have any idea who I am. I spent almost every day during all three season in the field during elk season. Mostly with kids and not just mine, several special tag holders and think I packed my own weapon maybe twice. When my daughter shot her spike there was 5 other legal spikes in the herd, she wanted me to shoot one with my tag and i told her "no I'm good" cause it was her moment not mine and you call me selfish.

Seemed like you were looking for some answers and opinions on WA elk hunting and the draw system? I give you my honest opinion and it doesn't fit your agenda so you pop off and call me selfish.

That was a pretty big statement and I appreciate the kind words but there are a lot of people in this county that know elk better than I. Thanks for having my back Karl, seems like there always has to be that one guy

  very well said. 

[villajac29]

You are so far off on Pinetar its insulting Jacob. He has helped to grow hunting and helped more people harvest animals then you could ever dream of in your lifetime. You cannot come onto a forum such as this without knowing any of the players and try to make assumptions about them, their experience, and knowledge base. Its offensive!

I don't know what I said that was offensive. I just tried to address some of the issues I saw with his argument. Again, I think this is a poor medium to display true intentions. I'm not here to hurt any feelings or offend anyone. We can have differing opinions and still respect each other, that much should be true. He seems like a great outdoorsman, but talking about circumstantial experiences of success from a person who is very involved in that area isn't representative of the actual experiences people are having in that area from a success standpoint. The minority who are successful from year to year need to see it from the huge majority that are unsuccessful. I've had so many people contact me about how the have either stopped hunting the eastside due to unsuccessful hunts or over crowding I know those people are out there. On top of that when success rates are 2-3% of the people hunting district 8 that means that 16000 out of 16500 people were unsuccessful.

That doesn't seem positive to me, again that is just my opinion. I'm sorry you haven't had a chance to meet me and understand the way I am approaching this. I'm not a bad guy, or arrogant, or whatever else speaking through long winded text has made you think I am.  I was never attacking him directly for anything that he's done. Someone that interested in being out in the woods and watching elk would be someone I would very much like to get to know. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[rtspring]

You are so far off on Pinetar its insulting Jacob. He has helped to grow hunting and helped more people harvest animals then you could ever dream of in your lifetime. You cannot come onto a forum such as this without knowing any of the players and try to make assumptions about them, their experience, and knowledge base. Its offensive!

I don't know what I said that was offensive. I just tried to address some of the issues I saw with his argument. Again, I think this is a poor medium to display true intentions. I'm not here to hurt any feelings or offend anyone. We can have differing opinions and still respect each other, that much should be true. He seems like a great outdoorsman, but talking about circumstantial experiences of success from a person who is very involved in that area isn't representative of the actual experiences people are having in that area from a success standpoint. The minority who are successful from year to year need to see it from the huge majority that are unsuccessful. I've had so many people contact me about how the have either stopped hunting the eastside due to unsuccessful hunts or over crowding I know those people are out there. On top of that when success rates are 2-3% of the people hunting district 8 that means that 16000 out of 16500 people were unsuccessful.

That doesn't seem positive to me, again that is just my opinion. I'm sorry you haven't had a chance to meet me and understand the way I am approaching this. I'm not a bad guy, or arrogant, or whatever else speaking through long winded text has made you think I am.  I was never attacking him directly for anything that he's done. Someone that interested in being out in the woods and watching elk would be someone I would very much like to get to know. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Your bio info is wrong!!!  Not by a little by a lot!!!  I too spend many days in the yakima units. I have three weeks time in there already.  There is truly no way to get a good number count on the elk.   But I can promise you the numbers are as misleading as ever.   I never have a problem seeing elk, finding elk!  I have helped numerous tag holders over the years, we went 100 percent success rate on bulls.  With the one exception being my tag, I wanted a monster and had several chances but could not close the deal.

I’m gonna toot blrmans horn a little here..   He is a guy that when he speaks about hunting you should listen, he has been there done that. You don’t get his education and understanding of elk from sitting on a couch.  He puts the miles and time in, if they come better than him. I haven’t found anyone that has as much knowledge as he at such a young age.  Hes a good dude.   There are “ hunters” and then there is “HUNTERS”.    Listen and learn. 

[Karl Blanchard]

Why would I call?  So you can tell me I'm wrong over the phone as well as in text  you want to talk and not listen. Every time someone with a long and detailed knowledge base of our elk herds says anything you try and minimalize and discredit their experiences. That's not having a conversation, that's waiting for your turn to talk. Even with Pinetar who flat out knows more about kittitas elk than anyone working for wdfw you still try and pick apart his comments

Spikes aren't hard to find and kill. You and Dan talking about how they are an anomaly in the woods shows your lack of experience. They are the least intelligent elk you can hunt besides a calf and can be killed with great regularity. You can't manage your way to becoming a better and more successful hunter. I don't know a single hunter that ACTUALLY applies themselves that doesn't kill an elk every few years. The key word is ACTUALLY though. Those who haven't killed an elk in 20 years will find no more success hunting an older and smarter animal. That's fact. If you could pick apart success rates into individuals for multiple years you would still see the same names over and over again. Regardless of weapon, season, state, or species.

You have stated over and over that if the hunters of WA really care more about hunting every year then you would let it lie. Well it's been stated over and over. Every hunter survey that I can ever remember has had the same consensus, we wanna hunt every year.  You seem to dismiss that though

Lastly, I'll say it for the 10th time, I'm not even apposed to permit only but not until data collection catches up with 2020. There is too little data collection and too much reactionary knee jerk management. DO NOT PUT THE CART IN FRONT OF THE HORSE. permit only may be the ultimate answer but not until other avenues are exhausted. My older brother was doing this exact same research and analysis before you were even thinking about hunting. The difference was he listened.

Thanks RT

[ctwiggs1]

Why would I call?  So you can tell me I'm wrong over the phone as well as in text  you want to talk and not listen. Every time someone with a long and detailed knowledge base of our elk herds says anything you try and minimalize and discredit their experiences. That's not having a conversation, that's waiting for your turn to talk. Even with Pinetar who flat out knows more about kittitas elk than anyone working for wdfw you still try and pick apart his comments

Spikes aren't hard to find and kill. You and Dan talking about how they are an anomaly in the woods shows your lack of experience. They are the least intelligent elk you can hunt besides a calf and can be killed with great regularity. You can't manage your way to becoming a better and more successful hunter. I don't know a single hunter that ACTUALLY applies themselves that doesn't kill an elk every few years. The key word is ACTUALLY though. Those who haven't killed an elk in 20 years will find no more success hunting an older and smarter animal. That's fact. If you could pick apart success rates into individuals for multiple years you would still see the same names over and over again. Regardless of weapon, season, state, or species.

You have stated over and over that if the hunters of WA really care more about hunting every year then you would let it lie. Well it's been stated over and over. Every hunter survey that I can ever remember has had the same consensus, we wanna hunt every year.  You seem to dismiss that though

Lastly, I'll say it for the 10th time, I'm not even apposed to permit only but not until data collection catches up with 2020. There is too little data collection and too much reactionary knee jerk management. DO NOT PUT THE CART IN FRONT OF THE HORSE. permit only may be the ultimate answer but not until other avenues are exhausted. My older brother was doing this exact same research and analysis before you were even thinking about hunting. The difference was he listened.

Thanks RT

Karl, you're dead wrong here.  It's *opposed*. 

Geez man, learn how to hunt.

[coachcw]

I will throw my two cents in . First of all pintar knows the elk in kittitas valley better than anyone  I know . If your lucky enough for him to give you info you best listen , as far as a steward of the land and a mentor to younger hunters you'd have to look along ways to find his Rival.                                                                                              As Far As Karl Blanchard I have personally hunted with him and can tell you that his knowledge of every game species and the science behind  his statements are backed. in the woods there isn't a guy I'd rather have by my side while hunting elk . I know for a fact that the bull count in peaches is way off . they count the bulls that winter , well guess what the majority of the quality bulls never winter in the feed lots . Too give out ten archery tags in two units is a joke i can set a camera up in one drainage and get ten different bulls on it . as far as using success rates its a joke 90 percent of archery hunters have slim too no chance of killing a elk when the step out of there truck . . I'd personally stand behind a permit only season but mainly to try and limit the tribal harvest .  Believe me or not kid but I've only killed fourty or so elk with a bow so how would I know .

[Karl Blanchard]

Sorry Ctwiggs     :bash:my auto correct loves to correct correctly spelled words and it drives me insane!

[jstone]

I for one appreciate the guys who have the knowledge because they have boots on the ground. I hunt archery and every year could shoot a smoker bull. But can’t draw to save my life. I see tons of elk.
Thank you guys for your information!! I will always listen to the guys who know!!