Ladder Test how-to

[7mmfan]

I'm heading out this weekend to do some shooting. I'm trying a new load for one of my rifles and want to work up a ladder test this time. Never really done a true "ladder test" so I'm curious what your protocol is.

Do you load one round in increments from min to max and look for the plateau somewhere in there, or are you shooting groups and doing the same? The gun gets hot fast, so if I try to shoot more than 12-15 rounds it will take all friggin day.

We will have a chrono on hand to monitor velocity as well. Plan on shooting as long of distance as is feasible, 250-300 yards.

[jasnt]

For a first timer on ladder test I’d recommend 2 shots at each charge weight while recording speed.  Write down speeds as they are recorded. Can be a pain remembering everything later on back in the reloading bench. 

[Magnum_Willys]

You are looking for groups with similar elevations.   Even with a . 5 moa rifle less than 3 shot groups are tough to interpret though you can shoot one shot groups just go up smaller increments .   6 shots at .2 grains apart or two groups of 3 at .6 grains apart. 

Log speed of each shot.

Get a barrel cooler!!!

Shot this at 500 yd two days ago   

[7mmfan]

I was planning 1 shot per charge in .2 gr increments just to try and ID a plateau of similar velocities, and then load 4-5 shot groups to test within the ranges of that plateau for the next trip out. Is that overthinking it? I don't get enough time to fiddle around a whole bunch with my loads so I'm trying to streamline as best I can.

[Magnum_Willys]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M0FWO69/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_awdb_hnq6Eb46HST33

Barrelcool   , could get acquarium pump too   

[Magnum_Willys]

Sounds like a good plan   

[birddogdad]

Google Scott Satterlee videos on this..

[Jonathan_S]

I don't even think I'd use a chrono for loads that would only be shot at 250-300 yards.

Zero at 200, Up maybe MOA at 300?

[Mtnwalker]

I don't even think I'd use a chrono for loads that would only be shot at 250-300 yards.

Zero at 200, Up maybe MOA at 300?

Guessing he meant shooting his ladder at 250-300, not max hunting range..?

[Crunchy]

I thought ladders were supposed to be shot at 400 min?  That was you get an accurate vertical spread. 

[7mmfan]

Planning in doing the ladder test at 300ish. 400 would be a tough nut around here. I see 400ish being my max hunting range with this round, 7mm-08, 140 gr Accubonds. Dont even know if they'll shoot, nothing else seems to at this point, but I keep trying.

[TooTallMike]

Longer distance the better. However I recently did a load work up using the satterlee method at 130 yds and it worked great.. saved a lot of components

[Jonathan_S]

I don't even think I'd use a chrono for loads that would only be shot at 250-300 yards.

Zero at 200, Up maybe MOA at 300?

Guessing he meant shooting his ladder at 250-300, not max hunting range..?

Gotcha, I guess I read it too quick.

[bullfisher]

At that range you'd be better off with an optimum charge weight test (OCW). 3-5 shots, pick your most accurate and either refine it with tighter weight variance OCW test, or go straight to a seating depth test. A 300yd ladder test might just confuse you, cause it did me. At 600yds a ladder test starts to separate and clear up for me. Like mentioned above, the further the better for ladder tests.

[Stein]

At that range you'd be better off with an optimum charge weight test (OCW). 3-5 shots, pick your most accurate and either refine it with tighter weight variance OCW test, or go straight to a seating depth test. A 300yd ladder test might just confuse you, cause it did me. At 600yds a ladder test starts to separate and clear up for me. Like mentioned above, the further the better for ladder tests.

 

The problem with the ladder test is you are usually only using one shot at each load and the shot is subject to both your accuracy as a shooter and the rifle's.  Say you are shooting .75 MOA, you don't know if that hole is the center of the pattern or on one of the edges and each hole in the paper has this same issue.  Interpreting that is a big problem unless you really space them out by shooting long.

I had good success with shooting 5 shot groups at different charges and finding the tightest pattern and then coming back with 5 shot groups a bit above and below to see where it's best.

I also have success using a chrono and picking a few loads with low SD and then looking at groups to confirm.  That helped a bunch as it removed the shooter, wind and other variables.

[7mmfan]

Alight well you guys are shattering my grandiose plans of a perfect ladder test now. Shooting out past 400 is basically undoable within any kind of an acceptable drive of where I am. I don't know that I could provide any consistency at that range with this setup anyway. I'm just trying to get a load that is accurate for this rifle.

I don't have the time to shoot 5 shoot groups in .2 gr increments, and then fiddle with seating depth on half a dozen loads. It's just not in the cards. This is one of about 3 weekend days I have available to do this until like the middle of August so I'm trying to make the best use of my time.

Explain some of these other methods for refining the loads prior to heading out to me so I can evaluate and maybe implement them over the next couple days. I'll watch the Sadderlee videos tonight after kiddos bedtime, but if someone can give me a rudimentary breakdown it would be appreciated.

[jasnt]

At that range you'd be better off with an optimum charge weight test (OCW). 3-5 shots, pick your most accurate and either refine it with tighter weight variance OCW test, or go straight to a seating depth test. A 300yd ladder test might just confuse you, cause it did me. At 600yds a ladder test starts to separate and clear up for me. Like mentioned above, the further the better for ladder tests.

 

I also have success using a chrono and picking a few loads with low SD and then looking at groups to confirm.  That helped a bunch as it removed the shooter, wind and other variables.

This is my favorite method personally

[Jonathan_S]

If I had 3 days between now and August, this is what I would do.

Day 1: load up 4-5 shot groups in .5 grain increments up to max., shoot and choose the most accurate charge weight.

Day 2: Shoot another 10-20 to confirm, if Day 1: results weren't quite to standard I'd load several depths of the same charge

Day 3: Shoot the best Day 2 depth again to confirm


In all reality for someone who shoots that seldom (not a knock) you shouldn't be shooting at game far enough for ES to really matter. Load up something that shoots about MOA and go kill stuff this fall. It ain't that complicated BUT there is no way to have a super abbreviated but also ultra precise handloading recipe without getting somewhat lucky in only three shooting sessions 

[Jonathan_S]

Last thought: if I already had a workable rifle/ammunition setup, I wouldn't try and get a new one for hunting season in only three crammed sessions.

[7mmfan]

So basically what I’ve been doing. Alright you’ve given me some stuff to think about.

On that last thought. I have another rifle that’s dialed so I can will fall back on that most likely. This rifle is a project so to speak. I have a load that shoots just a little worse than MOA that I killed two animals with last year, so I feel ok using that out to a couple hundred yards, but I want better.

[Jonathan_S]

  you can do some serious elk and deer killing with a 1 - 1.5 MOA weapon.

[7mmfan]

I agree with that. I'm just so used to my other rifle that's sub
.5 that anything over 1 seems ridiculous. I may just need to adjust my expectations.

[hogslayer]

What combo are you shooting?

[7mmfan]

140 Accubond and Varget

[Magnum_Willys]

Had good luck with quickload .  Need a confirmed velocity, barrel length and cartridge data   . 
To really dial in get case capacity by weighing empty brass and brass full of water   

[Buckjunkie]

If I had 3 days between now and August, this is what I would do.

Day 1: load up 4-5 shot groups in .5 grain increments up to max., shoot and choose the most accurate charge weight.

Day 2: Shoot another 10-20 to confirm, if Day 1: results weren't quite to standard I'd load several depths of the same charge

Day 3: Shoot the best Day 2 depth again to confirm


In all reality for someone who shoots that seldom (not a knock) you shouldn't be shooting at game far enough for ES to really matter. Load up something that shoots about MOA and go kill stuff this fall. It ain't that complicated BUT there is no way to have a super abbreviated but also ultra precise handloading recipe without getting somewhat lucky in only three shooting sessions 

This sounds like a recipe for throat erosion before you find a load.

I would start by searching forums like Long Range Forum for loads with your Cartridge and bullet. You will see patterns + or - a grain. Start bullet seating .020 off lands and grooves for conventional bullets and .090 for solid copper/monoliths.

Run a ladder group around that load at 300+ yards. One shot 5 minutes apart. Find a cluster and re-load the middle load from the cluster in groups of 3 with seating depths closer and further from lands and grooves.

Keep everything constant. Brass (new or fired #of times).

You are trying to eliminate variables.

My .02 cents

[Jonathan_S]

  Throat erosion from 50-75 shots on a weapon that hasn't even printed better than MOA doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.

Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).

[bullfisher]

Alight well you guys are shattering my grandiose plans of a perfect ladder test now. Shooting out past 400 is basically undoable within any kind of an acceptable drive of where I am. I don't know that I could provide any consistency at that range with this setup anyway. I'm just trying to get a load that is accurate for this rifle.

I don't have the time to shoot 5 shoot groups in .2 gr increments, and then fiddle with seating depth on half a dozen loads. It's just not in the cards. This is one of about 3 weekend days I have available to do this until like the middle of August so I'm trying to make the best use of my time.

Explain some of these other methods for refining the loads prior to heading out to me so I can evaluate and maybe implement them over the next couple days. I'll watch the Sadderlee videos tonight after kiddos bedtime, but if someone can give me a rudimentary breakdown it would be appreciated.

If you don't have enough range to ladder test, or enough time to OCW test, then you'll have to velocity string test or satterlee test as mentioned above. The satterlee test can be hard to weed through if your chrony is finicky, scale inaccurate, powder stability, ect.. Thats why its easier at .5grn or higher increments. Honestly though, I end up loading and shooting just as much with a satterlee test as a .3grn OCW test. But maybe someone else has had better luck. The easiest short range test for me has been a .3grn OCW test. You can load a box of 3 shot groups or a couple boxes of 5 shot. Cool barrel between groups and tighten a seating depth test later.

[Magnum_Willys]

The easiest short range test for me has been a .3grn OCW test. You can load a box of 3 shot groups or a couple boxes of 5 shot. Cool barrel between groups and tighten a seating depth test later.

    Do this and triangulate the shots and use center of them as a ladder at the same time.    I always start out with Quickload expected optimum charge weight and try to disprove it. 

[Buckjunkie]

Throat erosion from 50-75 shots on a weapon that hasn't even printed better than MOA doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.

Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).

Why are you asking for advice if you know so much?

[7mmfan]

Throat erosion from 50-75 shots on a weapon that hasn't even printed better than MOA doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.

Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).

Why are you asking for advice if you know so much?

Don't think Jonathan was asking for any advice, I was.

[7mmfan]

Alight well you guys are shattering my grandiose plans of a perfect ladder test now. Shooting out past 400 is basically undoable within any kind of an acceptable drive of where I am. I don't know that I could provide any consistency at that range with this setup anyway. I'm just trying to get a load that is accurate for this rifle.

I don't have the time to shoot 5 shoot groups in .2 gr increments, and then fiddle with seating depth on half a dozen loads. It's just not in the cards. This is one of about 3 weekend days I have available to do this until like the middle of August so I'm trying to make the best use of my time.

Explain some of these other methods for refining the loads prior to heading out to me so I can evaluate and maybe implement them over the next couple days. I'll watch the Sadderlee videos tonight after kiddos bedtime, but if someone can give me a rudimentary breakdown it would be appreciated.

If you don't have enough range to ladder test, or enough time to OCW test, then you'll have to velocity string test or satterlee test as mentioned above. The satterlee test can be hard to weed through if your chrony is finicky, scale inaccurate, powder stability, ect.. Thats why its easier at .5grn or higher increments. Honestly though, I end up loading and shooting just as much with a satterlee test as a .3grn OCW test. But maybe someone else has had better luck. The easiest short range test for me has been a .3grn OCW test. You can load a box of 3 shot groups or a couple boxes of 5 shot. Cool barrel between groups and tighten a seating depth test later.

This is basically what I've done, and I'm just frustrated with lack of results. I probably spent 2 weeks and a couple hundred rounds down range last year to get to a 1.25" group. The gun gets hot fast and I literally have fart around for 20 minutes to feel like its cool enough for another group. Takes all friggin day. In reality I just need to come to terms with the fact that this gun may just not be a great shooter.

[Buckjunkie]

Throat erosion from 50-75 shots on a weapon that hasn't even printed better than MOA doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.

Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).

Why are you asking for advice if you know so much?

Don't think Jonathan was asking for any advice, I was.

Thought he was you...my bad

[Jason]

140 Accubond and Varget

I’ve had very good results with Varget and 140 Accubonds in my Ruger American 7mm-08. Good luck with the testing and finding a good load.

[7mmfan]

140 Accubond and Varget

I’ve had very good results with Varget and 140 Accubonds in my Ruger American 7mm-08. Good luck with the testing and finding a good load.

Out of curiosity, what did you settle on for a load? Distance off lands?

[7mmfan]

Throat erosion from 50-75 shots on a weapon that hasn't even printed better than MOA doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.

Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).

Why are you asking for advice if you know so much?

Don't think Jonathan was asking for any advice, I was.

Thought he was you...my bad

 

[Jason]

140 Accubond and Varget

I’ve had very good results with Varget and 140 Accubonds in my Ruger American 7mm-08. Good luck with the testing and finding a good load.

Out of curiosity, what did you settle on for a load? Distance off lands?

41.2gr Varget 2.807 coal.  I’m not sure how far off the lands it ended up, I don’t have that info here in the house.

[jasnt]

7mm
When you have done seating depth testing in the past what were your increments?
I’ve had great results with Berger’s seating depth testing.  .030” increments.  Some times that sweet spot is .120” jump and have seen even more be better in some guns. 
Can’t remember if you said or not but has it been bedded? What scope are you running?

[7mmfan]

I'll admit, I haven't backed that far off with my seating depth, mainly because I haven't found any loads that grouped well enough to intrigue me to pursue it further. I suppose that's something I should probably put more effort into.

Lands is 2.90. Magazine length is 2.85. I've loaded from there down to 2.73. Most loads between 2.80 and 2.85.

Rifle is bedded and floated. Scope leupold vx 2 3-9. Nothing fancy but more than adequate for putting a group on paper at 100 yards.

[Magnum_Willys]

How long is your barrel?

Without tuning Quickload says 43.1 gr @ 2.870 for 2870 fps for 24” barrel is your goto. 
This is MAX Load   

Or drop to 40.2 gr @ 2700. 

If I knew barrel length, and velocity and
Load specs from existing load could narrow it down.

My last 3 rifles have all shot quickload suggest loads < .5 moa   

[jasnt]

My suggestion would be to try it. Ime with out a seating depth the rifle likes with a given bullet you won’t get anything decent.   When I started loading for my first 300wm I couldn’t get anything to shoot better than moa.   Then I read about the Berger seating depth test and they suggested.030” increments out to .120” off.   Was only 4 3 shot groups what could it hurt.   So I picked a low charge and found it shot very well from 60-90k off.  So I did a velocity test just to find the flat spot and all ten shots of the test printed a 3/4” group at 100 yards.   Last 2 shots were the same speed.  So I shot the middle of that load and first group was .6.  I was happy but after a box of bullets I decided to fine tune seating depth and tested .005” increments and found right at .075 the group went .5 and sometimes less.   I know use this method every time.    Many folks squak it’s a poor method using the velocity test but it has worked very well for me.   With the right seating depth!
Jmo based on my experiences

[7mmfan]

How long is your barrel?

Without tuning Quickload says 43.1 gr @ 2.870 for 2870 fps for 24” barrel is your goto. 
This is MAX Load   

Or drop to 40.2 gr @ 2700. 

If I knew barrel length, and velocity and
Load specs from existing load could narrow it down.

My last 3 rifles have all shot quickload suggest loads < .5 moa

Barrel is 22" long 1:9.25 twist. I don't have speeds from any existing loads unfortunately.

@jasnt I agree that a systematic approach to all aspects of reloading is the best way to go. I'm just flustered from lack of time. I have jumped around a bit in my reloading efforts which hasn't helped me any. I guess I just need to buck up and load it out and try to find the time.

[jasnt]

No need to rush it since you have a back up.  Just load up a seating depth test when you load up your ladder. Test both on same day. Then next outing use what you learned to get a better test with seating depth and charge. 

[Magnum_Willys]

Well with a 22” barrel quickload says First node is down at 40.7 gr @ 2703 and you can’t reach next node of 44 gr @ 2903.

I like to bump a hair before optimum so I would guess 40.9 @ 2.800   

The speeds listed are the important part the grains are quickloads guesstimate since no proven load data to input.

[7mmfan]

Well with a 22” barrel quickload says First node is down at 40.7 gr @ 2703 and you can’t reach next node of 44 gr @ 2903.

I like to bump a hair before optimum so I would guess 40.9 @ 2.800   

The speeds listed are the important part the grains are quickloads guesstimate since no proven load data to input.

That's good info. Thanks for that. I worked up loads this morning starting at 41, maybe I'll add a few down into the 40's to see what they yield. I doubt I'd be able to make it 44 gr, the rifle usually shows pressure signs slightly above book max.

[wooltie]

I've been shooting ladders at 100-200 yards using a magneto speed hanging off the end of the barrel.  I like to see the point of impact, but I use the measured velocity to determine my charge weight.  I tune seating depth after I select the charge weight to tighten the group per Jasnt.    I've had success with this approach, it doesn't take a lot of range trips and reloading.  I've seen inconclusive results where higher velocity shots produce a lower point of impact relative to lower velocity shots, for whatever reasons.

Usually I find the flat spot in velocity where the variation between three loads is < 10 fps e.g. 2690, 2700, 2710 (so I'd pick 2690), but this last trial was different.  7 of 8 loads were all about 1" or less, while 1 shot was outside the group and that might have been me.  Here's the spread for 165g partition, H435055.0g-57.1g out of a 30-06. 

2743
2752
2765
2782 (probably go with this one)
2790
2806
2849
2841

Now I'll mess around with seating depth until I'm tired of making range trips.

I just haven't had luck starting with charge weight first.  I find the seating depth that works as a starting point, then pick the velocity, then return to tweakign seating depth.  Also a good way to find out how much work it will take for a a given bullet:

I loaded up four bullets (5 shot groups each), 2 grains under book max, seated .020", then shot them at 100 yards. 

One bullet groups touching, whereas the others were more dispersed, and some where like 1.5" groups.....so it's like "do I really want to mess around with closing a 1.5" group, or do I just go with the load with the sub-moa load outta the gate?"  All the bullets will kill just fine.  Now if only I could get those stupid accubonds to group...

[TooTallMike]

I've been shooting ladders at 100-200 yards using a magneto speed hanging off the end of the barrel.  I like to see the point of impact, but I use the measured velocity to determine my charge weight.  I tune seating depth after I select the charge weight to tighten the group per Jasnt.    I've had success with this approach, it doesn't take a lot of range trips and reloading.  I've seen inconclusive results where higher velocity shots produce a lower point of impact relative to lower velocity shots, for whatever reasons.

Usually I find the flat spot in velocity where the variation between three loads is < 10 fps e.g. 2690, 2700, 2710 (so I'd pick 2690), but this last trial was different.  7 of 8 loads were all about 1" or less, while 1 shot was outside the group and that might have been me.  Here's the spread for 55.0g-57.1g

2743
2752
2765
2782 (probably go with this one)
2790
2806
2849
2841

Nice !

I do a similar ladder and it has saved me a bunch of components.

For what you listed there I'd go with 56.1g. So you know if you have a variance of +/- .1 either way you'll still be in the sweet spot for low ES.
Then I tune for seating depth if I feel like I want to squeeze out a little more.

Happy shooting!

[Magnum_Willys]

Followed up 500 Yd Ladder with best loads at 965 yards.   Need to tighten up the vertical a bit and play with seating +/- .005 but can't complain too much with 5" groups at 965 yds.    Seen some chatter about the Proof Carbon barrels but this one seems to be a keeper and its 30". 

[jasnt]

I've been shooting ladders at 100-200 yards using a magneto speed hanging off the end of the barrel.  I like to see the point of impact, but I use the measured velocity to determine my charge weight.  I tune seating depth after I select the charge weight to tighten the group per Jasnt.    I've had success with this approach, it doesn't take a lot of range trips and reloading.  I've seen inconclusive results where higher velocity shots produce a lower point of impact relative to lower velocity shots, for whatever reasons.

Usually I find the flat spot in velocity where the variation between three loads is < 10 fps e.g. 2690, 2700, 2710 (so I'd pick 2690), but this last trial was different.  7 of 8 loads were all about 1" or less, while 1 shot was outside the group and that might have been me.  Here's the spread for 165g partition, H435055.0g-57.1g out of a 30-06. 

2743
2752
2765
2782 (probably go with this one)
2790
2806
2849
2841

Now I'll mess around with seating depth until I'm tired of making range trips.

I just haven't had luck starting with charge weight first.  I find the seating depth that works as a starting point, then pick the velocity, then return to tweakign seating depth.  Also a good way to find out how much work it will take for a a given bullet:

I loaded up four bullets (5 shot groups each), 2 grains under book max, seated .020", then shot them at 100 yards. 

One bullet groups touching, whereas the others were more dispersed, and some where like 1.5" groups.....so it's like "do I really want to mess around with closing a 1.5" group, or do I just go with the load with the sub-moa load outta the gate?"  All the bullets will kill just fine.  Now if only I could get those stupid accubonds to group...

that last 2 sure are close! I’d at least try those before you decide




Nice shooting magnum