A few questions on hunting cartridges.

[Redstar]

I'm pretty new to this, so please excuse the newbish questions and I apologize for the novel below...

I'm looking to get my primary hunting rifle soon so I have plenty of time to practice. I've narrowed down my hunting rifle choices to .270, .30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag. I plan to hunt primarily deer and elk with it, possibly bear at some point, so I'm leaning towards the .30-06 or 7mm. I've been reading up on them and asking friends that hunt what they use. I’m trying to get as much info as I can before I buy, please chime in with your experiences, suggestions and maybe even your opinions  .

My take on the three:
I like the .270, light, low recoil, lots of ammo options and flat shooting. If I only intended to hunt deer this would be the rifle for me. But, it seems a little small for bear and elk. Yes I know lots of people use it with great success on elk, but I'm a new hunter and not totally confident in my shot placement ability yet. I can hit paper targets fine, but have little field experience.
-Maybe I should start with one and work up to a larger caliber if I feel I need it once I get more experienced?

.30-06 - Very capable, should be able to hunt anything in North America with it. Manageable recoil, ammo is common and there seems to be an overwhelming choice of different bullets available. Good all around rifle, maybe the most cost effective of the bunch too.  Everyone who hunts seems to have, or have had, a rifle chambered in .30-06. Not too many questions, this guy should do any job I ask it to as long as I do my part.

7mm – (I've shot the other two already and I found someone who will let me shoot their 7mm sometime soon) Just from reading and asking questions it seems to be a good compromise between the .30-06 and the .270. Flatter shooting than the -06 and a larger bullet than the .270. Ammo seems to be pretty common with a fair amount of choices in bullet weight and design. 
-I do have a specific question about this cartridge:  A friend said that he would never hunt deer with a 7mm because it destroys too much meat. From my reading it seems like this would be more of a bullet (weak bullet, fragments too easily) problem than an overall cartridge problem. Is there more to it that I'm missing?


All in all, I do realize that as long as any of these go bang, and I’m not trying to make a stupid shot, any of the three should work fine. But, I’m a curious person, and it’s fun to compare. I like to “bench race” with a few of my car buddies, what’s the term for “bench hunting?”

Thanks!

[catwithboost]

Out of those 3 I would go 7mm mag. I own 2 of them and a 270 for the wife. I have taken 2 deer the past 2 years with the 7mm mag with no damage to meat. I shoot Barnes Tipped TSX. 140gr and that is all you need. In my opinion. 

[JoshT]

Ahhhhh... the holy trinity... .270, naught'6, and 7 Mag... I believe Rifle magazine had an article on this a few years back. If'n it were me... 7 mag... hands down. BUT I will say this... the .270 is a more than capable round... on anything that can't stomp you into a fine paste. Learing to shoot the .270 should be easier... all things being equal.

Yes I know lots of people use it with great success on elk, but I'm a new hunter and not totally confident in my shot placement ability yet.

Take this to heart... because all the horsepower in the world ain't gonna help if that bullet doesn't make a non-stop trip through the pumproom.

At the end of the day... the 7mm is by far the most versitile of the three you mentioned. All three are nearly equal in recoil... factory ammo is readily available... and relitively inexpensive. Just make sure you buy the RIFLE that's right for you... this is far more important than the caliber... buy at least a couple boxes of rounds, and spend some time shooting in the field off sticks, backpacks, sitting, prone, etc. You'll be much better prepared when that time comes to point the rifle with bad intentions... at that point it won't matter much what caliber you chose.

[Redstar]

Out of those 3 I would go 7mm mag. I own 2 of them and a 270 for the wife. I have taken 2 deer the past 2 years with the 7mm mag with no damage to meat. I shoot Barnes Tipped TSX. 140gr and that is all you need. In my opinion. 

Thanks, real input on damaged meat is apperciated.

At the end of the day... the 7mm is by far the most versitile of the three you mentioned. All three are nearly equal in recoil... factory ammo is readily available... and relitively inexpensive. Just make sure you buy the RIFLE that's right for you... this is far more important than the caliber... buy at least a couple boxes of rounds, and spend some time shooting in the field off sticks, backpacks, sitting, prone, etc. You'll be much better prepared when that time comes to point the rifle with bad intentions... at that point it won't matter much what caliber you chose.

What makes the 7mm more versitile in your opinion?
I agree, getting out and actually shooting somewhere other than a range is important. I'm planning to be out in the field this weekend with my .223 doing some shooting at different distances. Know any good areas to practice near Bellingham?

[huntnphool]

I use the 7mm with 140gr. as well, fast, flat round with loads of energy.

[JoshT]

What makes the 7mm more versitile... glad you asked:

120 Nosler Ballistic tips at 3600fps... smokin' fast, super flat, and hit like a ton of bricks... neither of the other two can come anywhere close to that number with a reputable hunting bullet (if you don't like the NBT... substitute the TSX here).

162 Amax with a BC of .625 at 3000+... if you become inclined to huck bullets at stuff in the 500-1000 yard range (animals or rocks/steel) then neither of the other two can match that kind of performance either. Might not want it now... but you may later.

140s of your choosing at 3350 are the meat and potatoes... the .270'll run a 130 in the 3100 neighborhood... a '06 will run a 165 in the 2900ish range... flatter, bucks the wind better, etc.

The ability to step up to a 175 in the 7mm for very heavy lifting... and still be able to shoot it as fast (or faster) than the 180 in the '06 is also a boon... should you choose to use it.

As far as the "blood shot" issue goes... you shoot something in the shoulder... and you're loosing meat... period. Doesn't matter if it's a .243 or a .300 Roy... bone shots = blood shot. Run one through the lungs and you'll save all the meat... except for a couple ribs... but that's like eating the wrapper off a crayon anyway.

[huntnphool]

but that's like eating the wrapper off a crayon anyway.

LOL, thats a good one Josh

Great info

[GoldTip]

At the end of the day... the 7mm is by far the most versitile of the three you mentioned. All three are nearly equal in recoil... factory ammo is readily available... and relitively inexpensive. Just make sure you buy the RIFLE that's right for you... this is far more important than the caliber... buy at least a couple boxes of rounds, and spend some time shooting in the field off sticks, backpacks, sitting, prone, etc. You'll be much better prepared when that time comes to point the rifle with bad intentions... at that point it won't matter much what caliber you chose.
[/quote]

I would argue this point with you quite heartily.  There is no more versatile round than the 30-06, period.  More available loading options in 30cal both for factory and for handloading by far than there is in 284.    The 7mm rem mag is a very good round and quite possibly easily findable, but you walk into the mercantile in Trego, MT and try to find a box of bullets and I virtually guarantee you that you'll find some 30-06 rounds either in store or quite possibly in every truck you happen to see drive by.  The 30-06 also handles the heavy for caliber bullets much better than does the 7mm rem mag.

[JoshT]

Ohhh... I disagree... other than the slightly better availability of the '06. Dispute the numbers posted above... then we'll talk. The '06 does have the advantage of stepping up to the 200-220 grain bullets... and those might be nice in grizz country... other than that, a 200 grain .30 cal bullet at 2600 won't do anything that a 175 7mm bullet at 2900 can't do.

[huntnphool]

I have to agree GT, the 06 will arguably be a tad easier to come by but the ballistics of the 7mm are better and more versatile

[GoldTip]

Ohhh... I disagree... other than the slightly better availability of the '06. Dispute the numbers posted above... then we'll talk. The '06 does have the advantage of stepping up to the 200-220 grain bullets... and those might be nice in grizz country... other than that, a 200 grain .30 cal bullet at 2600 won't do anything that a 175 7mm bullet at 2900 can't do.

Those numbers come at the abuse of the shoulder of someone who is asking who has never owned a hunting rifle before.  The versatility of the 30-06 is in the ability to find ammunition that can justifiably be used anywhere and everywhere for quite possibly all north american game, and with shootability.  For that case, you'll find me recommending the 30-06 everytime when given these three options of calibers.  I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

[huntnphool]

Those are good points too, although my 7mm's dont abuse the shoulder any more than a 06, especially with a muzzle break, about the same recoil as a .243. I understand what you are saying though

[Da stump]

Teacherman and myself have aquired a variety of rifles and to be honest I like a 243 for white tail under 200 yards a 270 would be good too.  A 30-06 Is a versatil round and next to the 30-30 has probably killed more game than any other caliber. My favorites thou are the 7 mm Rem Mag or the 300 win mag. Both calibers have enough ft/ lbs of energy to put down most american large game.  When you start talking bear I like the 300 win mag.  You can get loads for it that match up to almost any large game.  As others have said thou the big thing is place the bullet where you will get minimum meat damage and use enough of a gun to put the animal down fast and not stand the chance of not finding your animal.  Hit im with a big hammer!!!

[jdb]

all 3 are really pea's in a pod I cant argue that the big 7 is the most versatile. big bulls or big bears i think i'd opt for the bigger diammeter but thats just personnel preforance. in all honesty you'll never see the diffrence in any of the 3. oh yea I shoot a .270

[ivarhusa]

I would have never guessed that the recoil of an '06 was about equal to that of a 7mm magnum, but I looked it up and have to agree. Who'd a thunk?

Though I like my '06 well enough, the 7mm mag would come out ahead in a "rematch".

Ivar

[JoshT]

I don't know that any of them are really 'friendly' to the shoulder... I had a Browning .270 that was a hell-bitch to shoot.

As far as a recomended first big game caliber goes... my vote goes to none of the above. A .308 seems much easier on the shoulder to me... out to 300 yards it'll do pretty much anything the other "big 3" will do... ammo availability is excellent (and about the cheapest of the big game cals.)... and the rifles are a bit handier. Same could be said for the 7mm-08... except for the ammo availability, but there's still a ton of factory ammo available.

I'd rather have a small gun I could shoot well... than a big gun I was scared of.

[GoldTip]

I don't know that any of them are really 'friendly' to the shoulder... I had a Browning .270 that was a hell-bitch to shoot.

As far as a recomended first big game caliber goes... my vote goes to none of the above. A .308 seems much easier on the shoulder to me... out to 300 yards it'll do pretty much anything the other "big 3" will do... ammo availability is excellent (and about the cheapest of the big game cals.)... and the rifles are a bit handier. Same could be said for the 7mm-08... except for the ammo availability, but there's still a ton of factory ammo available.

I'd rather have a small gun I could shoot well... than a big gun I was scared of.

Very good point, for a first do-all hunting rifle I would probably lean more towards the 308 as well.  Grown man or not, stock design can make a big difference in felt recoil.  To be honest my poor opinion of the 7 mag comes partially from my old man's 7mm rem mag, he got from my Mom, 1964.  Remington 700, sharpest kicking gun I've ever had the displeasure of sighting in.  And I've spent time behind 340 weatherby's and 416 remington magnums, this 7mag just flat abused a guy.

[jackelope]

even my a-bolt in -06 was a thumper. that thing flat kicked like a mule.

my good bud shoots 120 grn nosler ballistic tips out of his 7 mag and puts a hurting on the deer every year. also shoots coyotes with it at stupid ranges and knocks them dead. it's a shooter, he complains about the recoil a bit at the range. no brake on it though either.

your 7 mag is .280 so picking a 7 mag over a .270 for bullet size is not a legitimate reason IMO.

[Thenewguy]

I may be crazy, but i have put cases through my 30.06 without any breaks and unless i go through a box i don't tend to feel it much. I am not a big guys (6.0 175) but it doesn;t tend to bug me much. To answer the impending question, I shoot my grandpa's old springfield federal premium 165 gr. I tend to like it, big enough to get the job done (haven;t killed anything yet but my grandpa broke it in good for me) and ammo is everywhere.

[Redstar]

Thanks for all the input guys!

Tell me more about the .300 win mag, ammo availability pretty good? Price per round comparable to the other three? I see there's also a .300 ultra mag?

Looks like I might get a chance to shoot a .30-06 and a 7mm mag back to back this weekend, we'll see how they face off!

[7mag.]

My user name should sum it up for me, although, I think personal preferance is most important. I shoot a 7mag. because after I killed my first deer at the age of 15 with my old Marlin 30-30, my old man bought me a bolt rifle with a scope. It was the same Model 70 7mm. rem. mag. that I shoot today. I am very comfortable with it, I have been hunting with it for almost 20 years, and it has yet to let me down. For my son, when he gets old enough to have a big game rifle, I am pretty sure that I will get him a .308. Those .308's are hard to beat for versatility, and shooter comfort. You can get a nice short, light .308 that will be a joy to pack and shoot, and it will easily kill anything in the lower 48. You don't need the big magnums or the new short actions, to make a good hunting rifle. You need a good rifle that you like, and that you like shooting. Forget about ballistics and energy transfer, and "knock down power", you can get into all that later. Concentrate on a well made rifle that you like and shoot it a lot. Nothing takes the place of bullet placement.

I think that any of the 3 would be just fine.

[GUHunter]

I have owned both a 30-06 and a 7mm mag. Both are very good cartridges, but they honestly are not not all that different except at very long range. Both have plenty of energy at ranges that most riflemen can make consistent hits at. It's my thinking that at long range, no matter how flat your rifle shoots, you need to know your drop. All cartridges are dropping fairly fast at 400 yards, and a miss is likely unless you know your rifle. My advice is to buy a 30-06. Ammo availability and price are good and any rifle you may want will be chambered in it.

[jackelope]

as was mentioned earlier...i think the strong thing to remember is the rifle that fits you and lasts and you like is a more important choice than which of the 3 calibers you chose.
the 300 win mag recoils harder and is considerably more expensive to buy quality ammo for....around $50.00 for a box of 20 rounds.

[Da stump]

The 300 win mag is a great cartridge. The amount of kick it can deliver depends on the rifle you are using.  I have a Ruger Model 77 with a synthetic stock and a stainless barrel. Love the gun but Teacherman say it kicks worse than his 338 rem ultra mag. If you where to have a rifle vented and ported it would definately drop the kick and they do have differn't recoil system to use.  To me it really is irrelevant because I don't even notice the kick.  I'm usually concentrating on bringing down an animal.  Ammo for the 300 is quite comman and you can find it in various differn't grains.  Hand loading for the 3oo is great because of the wide variety that is available.  If I had to chose one rifle it would be my 300.

[Curly]

My take on the three:
I like the .270, light, low recoil, lots of ammo options and flat shooting. If I only intended to hunt deer this would be the rifle for me. But, it seems a little small for bear and elk. Yes I know lots of people use it with great success on elk, but I'm a new hunter and not totally confident in my shot placement ability yet. I can hit paper targets fine, but have little field experience.
-Maybe I should start with one and work up to a larger caliber if I feel I need it once I get more experienced?

I think you would be best served to start out with the .270.  It will serve you well for all the game you mentioned.  Then someday when you want to put more of a hurt on elk, then go get a .338 Win mag or .338 Ultra Mag................until that time, the .270 will put down deer and elk at any reasonable range without causing you to develop any bad shooting habits like flinching.

[Redstar]

I need to read a bit more on the .300wm and maybe fire one. Right now it looks to be a little more expensive to feed and a little more gun than I want.

I asked about caliber first because it looks like I'm going to end up buying a brand new rifle. So, I'll be able to get the rifle chambered in just about anything - which is why I narrowed it down to what seems to be the 3 most common and effective deer and elk hunting rounds.

I didn’t want info just from books or just from the tool behind the counter trying to make a sale… (see the next  post for the full story). I wanted some additional input on them from people that had actually used them for their intended purposes. And I’m getting some great info from you guys! Thanks!

I'm still trying to get a feel for as many different rifles as I can. I'm liking the new Savage hunter series at the moment. But, there are a few more makes/models I want to check out.

My list of fired hunting rifles includes:
Savage 110 (.270 & .30-06) Looks like these are now the 111 series
Remington 700 (.30-06)
Winchester 70 (.30-06)
Funky custom rifle with a Mauser action (.30-06)

Hopefully taking out to the range soon:
An older Colt rifle I stumbled across (7mm RM)
Remington 700 (7mm RM)

Others I think I should check out:
Sako
Tikka T3
Browning A-bolt

Any other suggestions?

[Redstar]

STORY TIME!
Last month I was told that .223 and 5.56 are identical and I would have no problem shooting 5.56 (it was more expensive). I told him that I was instructed to only shoot .223 through my rifle. He responded, “Well I think I know a thing or two about guns, I am the one who works here, not you. They are the same round, one is just measured in millimeters which is from the metric system. You familiar with the metric system? They use it in Canada.”

I’m now thinking, OK, that’s great, I’m not buying any .223 from you today… So I ask if he has any .45acp. He pulls out a box of .45 colt. I politely tell him I need .45 auto, not .45 colt. He proceeds to give me a lecture on how .45acp, .45gap and .45 colt should work in the same gun. I tried get him to put a .45acp and a .45 colt round next to each other, but he was much too smart to be bothered with my request. He again reminded me that he was the one behind the counter, not me.

We had gathered a bit of attention at this point from other customers. I shrugged, gave the “I tried” look to the other people in line, gave him back everything I had intended to purchase and told him, “The next time I need unsolicited advice on a purchase I’ll ask my mother.”

[jackelope]

the a-bolt is a great rifle. the 60 degree action is really cool and fast to operate, but may take some getting used to.

where are you located and where do you shoot?
i have a 300 wm you can shoot if you are anywhere near local, but it has a brake on it, so may not give the correct impression on what to expect from one.

there is a 7mag a-bolt for sale in the classifieds for a great price.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,25211.0.html

the savage is a great rifle for the money, so is a howa or weatherby vanguard. a lot of guys on here like the tikka rifles, i have zero experience with them. sako's are fantastic rifles if you don't mind paying for them. maybe you should mention the price range you are looking to pay...your rifles so far are running the spectrum.

[Woodchuck]

ruger m77, mine is heavier cal, but love it

[Redstar]

Thanks for the offer!

I'm in Bellingham, usually shoot out in Sumas/Deming area.

I've been trying to sample the field, see what the more expensive guns really have over the cheaper ones. With that said, I'd like to get the best "bang" for my buck (wow, could be a double pun there...), but I realize quality is usually expensive and this is a gun I will probably own for a long time so... I'd like to spend no more than $1,000 including optics but there's some wiggle room in that number.

[Curly]

If you're looking at $1,000 including optics, for a new gun, you should consider a Weatherby Vanguard or Savage rifles.........maybe Tikka.  Vanguard is good if you're thinking 300WM or 7mm mag since it is a little on the heavy side.  With the heavier weight, felt recoil will be less than in the Savage. 

If you go the Savage or Tikka route, I'd suggest the 30-06 or even better the .270.  

[C-Money]

I don't know what kind of guns you folks are shooting, but I sure feel a difference in recoil! The 7mm kicks harder than the '06 and the 270, and the '06 a bit harder than the 270 in my experience. All are tolerable. Don't get caught up in the MAGNUM name that follows the 7mm Rem Magnum. The 7mm is not that far ahead of the other two. I have all three, and my 30-06 goes hunting with me more than any other! The 270 is second, and the 7mm , tho it shoots great and is a perfect fit with fine optics, stays home almost always. Accurately Hit game where they live, and stay tight behind the front shoulder to lessen meat damage. Shoot quality bullets and any of the three will work great.

[Crunchy]

Yeah during deer season when Im rifle hunting I often think of buying a lighter gun, cause the 7mag gets heavy. 

[Stevo539]

For performance the 7mag would be my choice. 

For ammo availability and cost the 30-06 would be my choice.

The 30-06 is plenty capable of taking anything wandering the lower 48.

As far as ruining meat, shot placement is key.  All three will ruin a lot of meat if you hit the wrong spot.  Train yourself to shoot right behind the shoulder (on deer/elk) and the only thing you'll ruin is rib meat.  No biggie.

I wouldn't try the "work my way up to a larger caliber" unless you just want an excuse to go buy another rifle in a couple of years.  Which is actually a pretty good idea. 

[jackelope]

unless you just want an excuse to go buy another rifle in a couple of years.  Which is actually a pretty good idea.

never a bad idea.

[fishseeker]

I hunted for 25 years using a 308 for deer and a 300wm for elk. Both Ruger 77s. As I got older I got tired of the weight and kick of the mag. Sold the Mag and bought a .06. Lighter and less kick(my Black Shadow Mod,70 weighs 6.5lbs less scope and stuff). It does kick with 180s but not bad. Evey elk I have shot with it are just as dead as the ones I shot with the mag. Never needed a follow up shot. Have a Win md. 88 that kicks like a mule with 180s,Kills elk just as dead! I don't shot long range, I just get closer

[mhadix]

personally i use a .308.
i good quality .308 properly sighted in and using premium ammo will put a thumping on anything in north america well into the 700 yard range.
the one i use was made for competion shooting at 1000 yards, so i wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at big game 500-700+ yards if i felt the need to. but i like getting closer, if you can stalk hunt up to an animal without it detecting you and pull off a good shot under 30 yards, to me that's more satisfying than a long range shot.

[Redstar]

Thanks for the help

I shot a 7mm and 06 back to back this weekend. They're pretty similar from what I could tell. Hits at 250 yards were pretty easy with both and recoil was about the same. The 7mm also had a leupold on it, wow that thing was clear!

Ammo for the 7mm looks to run around $10 more per box, but there was a lot more of it avalible localy than .30-06 last Friday - I thought that was kinda weird.

Still a tough call between the two, I think I'm going to check out a .308 before I make up my mind.

[Redstar]

I got my rifle. Now it's time to practice.

Thanks for all your help!

[C-Money]

Redstar, great caliber choice!! Sooo, what kind of rifle/optics did you get? Congrats!

[jackelope]

i agree..great choice of caliber...tried and true. what rifle did you end up with?

[batch]

i have had all three i would go with the 7mm if the recoil doesnt bother you too much its not too much more than the 06 but its noticible

[mtndew]

Thanks for the help

I shot a 7mm and 06 back to back this weekend. They're pretty similar from what I could tell. Hits at 250 yards were pretty easy with both and recoil was about the same. The 7mm also had a Leupold on it, wow that thing was clear!

That brings up another point with regards to the cost of your rifle/scope combination. Leupold scopes are great, but a good one is going to cost you as much, or more, than the rifle (depending on what rifle you get) My , my main gun is a Browning A-bolt in 300WSM, with a Leupold 3x9- love it!

[Redstar]

I got a great deal on a used rifle with a Simmons 3-9x scope.

The adjustment knobs on the scope are vauge, but it's good enough for right now. My only complaint with the rifle is the lack of a removable magazine (or even a hinged floorplate) to make unloading easier.

Regardless of all that, I think it will be a good starting point for me. I'm not going to cringe when I drop it, plus once I start hunting more and figure out what I actually need/want I should be able to easily configure the rifle to suit me.

[C-Money]

Savage makes a very accurate rifle. They work well. Get it sighted in and you will have a dependable rifle for a lot of years to come. I like the Federal classic 150gr ammo. Seemed to shoot the best groups and had good on game preformance in my 30-06's.

[jackelope]

I will 2nd that. i will also add that i believe you can buy a stock if you want to upgrade with a hinged floorplate you can do that. a little trouble to find used, but they can be found.

[hawksfan75]

Well redstar, glad to see you got the .06. We'll have to go out and compare it to my .270 

You sure you can handle the .06? 

[Redstar]

Hahahaha, I didn't realize you were on here. Mine's bigger 

Go get your hunters ed taken care of already!