Question for all the pack goat guys

[HighCountryHunter88]

I have noticed the rising popularity the last couple years in pack goats. With the increasing amount of guys dragging a string of domestic goats through the back country cant help but wonder if there could be any impact on native sheep and goat herds. MY question is do any of you goat guys get your goats tested for pneumonia before summer packing or hunting season? 

[2MANY]

Crickets.

[Special T]

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,242365.msg3275415.html#msg3275415

[ghosthunter]

Well I have a question too. I read the other thread.

So if you don't leave them in camp, what do you do with them while hunting? They just follow along?

Good question about the testing. Seems I read something about that some where.

No jack intended.

[Special T]

Well I have a question too. I read the other thread.

So if you don't leave them in camp, what do you do with them while hunting? They just follow along?

Good question about the testing. Seems I read something about that some where.

No jack intended.

I know next to nothing, but a friend used them for bear hunting in the cascades, and he said they just followed him around or they would scream.... Might be an effective way to bear hunt or cougar hunt leaving them tied up.  He essentially said they followed him around like a dog.... Probably good cover at confusing your prey deer bear whatever.

[Stein]

My buddy has used them and says the same thing, they follow him around and get angry if he doesn't let them in the tent at night.

[ghosthunter]

Well I have a question too. I read the other thread.

So if you don't leave them in camp, what do you do with them while hunting? They just follow along?

Good question about the testing. Seems I read something about that some where.

No jack intended.

I know next to nothing, but a friend used them for bear hunting in the cascades, and he said they just followed him around or they would scream.... Might be an effective way to bear hunt or cougar hunt leaving them tied up.  He essentially said they followed him around like a dog.... Probably good cover at confusing your prey deer bear whatever.

bEAR BAITING???

[HighCountryHunter88]

Crickets.

yea im going to take this as a "NO" which kinda sucks.

[birddogdad]

Crickets.

yea im going to take this as a "NO" which kinda sucks.

my question would be 2 part to this:
1) is testing required or not (either state or federally) depending on lands, kind of like dog shot records?
2) are there any documented problems or issues with game driving this discussion from studies?

i really have no dog in this fight but it is interesting discussion … following..

[HighCountryHunter88]

Crickets.

yea im going to take this as a "NO" which kinda sucks.

my question would be 2 part to this:
1) is testing required or not (either state or federally) depending on lands, kind of like dog shot records?
2) are there any documented problems or issues with game driving this discussion from studies?

i really have no dog in this fight but it is interesting discussion … following..

1. not to my knowledge anywhere is this a requirement

2. as far as documented problems go, wild sheep and goats contract pneumonia from domestics, that is known. The reason im curious about it and asked is because as sportsmen we care about our game herds and would think it the responsible thing to do. Honestly i dont even know if you can take them to the vet and just get them tested. maybe you cant? i do know that we all dont like it when a herd of sheep/ goats get shot out by the gov. because some of them get sick.. 

[birddogdad]

Crickets.

yea im going to take this as a "NO" which kinda sucks.

doing some light research, i think there are some responsibilities of goat owners cited in https://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=16-89&full=true#16-89-010   looks like some state maintenance records and interstate movement vet inspection records are mandatory in WAC's  and CFR's with USDA to follow even discussing quarantine situations... there are a couple diseases they are trying to eliminate, Scrappie seems to be the largest Federal action but there are several others cited...

my question would be 2 part to this:
1) is testing required or not (either state or federally) depending on lands, kind of like dog shot records?
2) are there any documented problems or issues with game driving this discussion from studies?

i really have no dog in this fight but it is interesting discussion … following..

1. not to my knowledge anywhere is this a requirement

2. as far as documented problems go, wild sheep and goats contract pneumonia from domestics, that is known. The reason im curious about it and asked is because as sportsmen we care about our game herds and would think it the responsible thing to do. Honestly i dont even know if you can take them to the vet and just get them tested. maybe you cant? i do know that we all dont like it when a herd of sheep/ goats get shot out by the gov. because some of them get sick..

[YellowDog]

I'm a newbie packgoat owner so while I have done some research on the transmission of diseases from domestic goats to wild sheep/goats I need to do more so that I can actually give a better response to folks who have questions regarding these issues. 

That said, my goats are too young to pack any significant amount of weight at this point so I haven't had them out in the woods yet but I hope to start trail training them this fall.  As for your question, I had all 8 of my goats tested for MOVI which is what causes the pneumonia that is being asked about once they passed the minimum age (6 months).  (I also tested them for other diseases that goats can get CL, CAE, Johnes, etc.).  I even tested my does which I do not plan to use for packing (I might end up taking one or two along on hiking trips just for kicks) but I use them as breeding stock in the future to produce more packgoats for myself and for sale. 

MOVI is primarily found in domestic sheep and is only transmitted by direct contact with mucus of an infected animal.  Goats can contract MOVI but the number of cases of MOVI infected goats is an incredibly small fraction of the number of domestic sheep that are infected.  Most goats probably get it from sharing pasture or fencelines with infected sheep.  There are no known incidents of domestic goats transmitting MOVI to wild sheep or goats.  Domestic goats are not put out on forest land to graze like sheep are so domestic sheep are a MUCH, MUCH bigger threat to wild sheep and goats that pack goats are.  Its not even close.

As stated by someone else, the North American Pack Goat Association (napga.org) has a very clear Best Management Practices policy when it comes to traveling and using goats in the back country.  I encourage anyone with questions to visit NAPgA's website and their forums packgoatcentral.com to get more information and/or to ask questions.  This is a very important issue for NAPgA and its members and people there will gladly answer any questions.  In short, responsible pack goat owners do the testing (maybe not annually) and since most people keep closed herds and do not have their goats co-mingling with sheep and goats there is no real concern of a negative tested goat getting MOVI (remember face to face CONTACT with an infected sheep or goat is the only way a packgoat could get MOVI). 

Most packgoat owners try to weed out overly noisy/vocal goats since they can be annoying and potentially problematic for hunters.  My goats are not very vocal (1 gets vocal when its feeding time but that's it).  Goats defiiately follow along like dogs and goats are never supposed to be left alone in camp.  Therefore, they walk along and hunt along with their owners.  They are typically attached to a lead but they do not actually need to be led, they follow along willingly.  Most packgoats are bottle raised and are EXTREMELY bonded to humans.  Even more so than dogs.  They look to their owners for leadership, protectection, etc.  If they get startled they RUN to their people for protection. 

There are a few studies that have been done on the issue, a couple of them were well done and based on good science and research practices, some are very biased and flawed.  I have saved links to the studies but haven't read them all and scrutinized them but will do so as time allows. 

I'd be happy to try to answer any questions folks have and/or ask for information/answers of my fellow and more experienced pack goat owners if anyone has further questions.

[huntnnw]

the whole thing with MOVI and us guys using packgoats is a joke! Mule deer carry it, mountain goats carry it and share the mountain with bighorn sheep! The likelihood of a pack goat having it then coming face to face with a bighorn sheep is so low its minuscule

[HighCountryHunter88]

I'm a newbie packgoat owner so while I have done some research on the transmission of diseases from domestic goats to wild sheep/goats I need to do more so that I can actually give a better response to folks who have questions regarding these issues. 

That said, my goats are too young to pack any significant amount of weight at this point so I haven't had them out in the woods yet but I hope to start trail training them this fall.  As for your question, I had all 8 of my goats tested for MOVI which is what causes the pneumonia that is being asked about once they passed the minimum age (6 months).  (I also tested them for other diseases that goats can get CL, CAE, Johnes, etc.).  I even tested my does which I do not plan to use for packing (I might end up taking one or two along on hiking trips just for kicks) but I use them as breeding stock in the future to produce more packgoats for myself and for sale. 

MOVI is primarily found in domestic sheep and is only transmitted by direct contact with mucus of an infected animal.  Goats can contract MOVI but the number of cases of MOVI infected goats is an incredibly small fraction of the number of domestic sheep that are infected.  Most goats probably get it from sharing pasture or fencelines with infected sheep.  There are no known incidents of domestic goats transmitting MOVI to wild sheep or goats.  Domestic goats are not put out on forest land to graze like sheep are so domestic sheep are a MUCH, MUCH bigger threat to wild sheep and goats that pack goats are.  Its not even close.

As stated by someone else, the North American Pack Goat Association (napga.org) has a very clear Best Management Practices policy when it comes to traveling and using goats in the back country.  I encourage anyone with questions to visit NAPgA's website and their forums packgoatcentral.com to get more information and/or to ask questions.  This is a very important issue for NAPgA and its members and people there will gladly answer any questions.  In short, responsible pack goat owners do the testing (maybe not annually) and since most people keep closed herds and do not have their goats co-mingling with sheep and goats there is no real concern of a negative tested goat getting MOVI (remember face to face CONTACT with an infected sheep or goat is the only way a packgoat could get MOVI). 

Most packgoat owners try to weed out overly noisy/vocal goats since they can be annoying and potentially problematic for hunters.  My goats are not very vocal (1 gets vocal when its feeding time but that's it).  Goats defiiately follow along like dogs and goats are never supposed to be left alone in camp.  Therefore, they walk along and hunt along with their owners.  They are typically attached to a lead but they do not actually need to be led, they follow along willingly.  Most packgoats are bottle raised and are EXTREMELY bonded to humans.  Even more so than dogs.  They look to their owners for leadership, protectection, etc.  If they get startled they RUN to their people for protection. 

There are a few studies that have been done on the issue, a couple of them were well done and based on good science and research practices, some are very biased and flawed.  I have saved links to the studies but haven't read them all and scrutinized them but will do so as time allows. 

I'd be happy to try to answer any questions folks have and/or ask for information/answers of my fellow and more experienced pack goat owners if anyone has further questions.

 

[skagitsteel]

Crickets.

yea im going to take this as a "NO" which kinda sucks.

1- If you mantain a closed herd (no new goats coming in) there is no reason to test every year. 

2-Movi has many strains, the form of Movi carried by domestic sheep can certainly be  lethal to wild sheep.  Strains carried by goats can be given to wild sheep, however it has not proven to have the same pnemonia effect on wild sheep.  Domestic Goats should not be lumped in with domestic sheep when it comes to Movi, science does not back this up.  They have found Movi in many species of animals both domestic and wild. There was a study done where they put a wild sheep in a goat pen where goats were movi positive, the wild sheep did contract Movi but showed no respitory distress and was completely healthy.

3-The pack goat community has done a lot of testing on pack goat herds and Movi is extremely rare in small closed herds.  The pack goat association did a broad sampling of different herds and I believe they stopped testing after sampling over 100 animals without finding a single case.  Movi is usually found in large herds where the animals are in close quarters, like a farm.  Reputable Pack goat breeders are actually very good about testing their herds and mantaining movi free herds. Tests are pretty easy, nasal swab and send it off to WSU and pay like $50.

4-In addition transmission happens by nose to nose contact.  Free ranging domestic sheep is very different than a small string of goats under the owners control at all times.  For the sake of any remote possibility that a pack goat could give Movi to a wild sheep the responsble thing to do is never leave the goats unanatended for any reason. NAPGA (packgoat association) has vey strict guidelines regarding never leaving goats unattended and does a good job educating and enforcing this guideline.   This means they are tied down next to the tent at night and hunt with you during the day. Bottle raised goats are like clingy dogs, their worst nightmare is to become seprated from you.  I cant' even go do my business in the bushes without my whole string following me to investigate what I am doing. 

5- I don't actually take my goats anywhere wild sheep are, I have nothing againt it if precautions are taken.  If I was regularly in wild sheep areas I would have a differetn approach to testing to be on the safe side. 

[HighCountryHunter88]

i appreciate the responses! that is great information and i am glad to hear it! 

[O. Nerka]

Thanks for the info Yellowdog and Skagit Steel.  I don't know much about M.Ovi but is it ever a concern with mountain goats?  I know I've heard of bighorn herds having issues with pneumonia but not so much with mountain goats.  Are there other diseases that could be more of a goat to goat risk?  Normally I would assume that pack goat & mountain goat interactions would be even more rare but I think we've all seen photos or had an interaction with a pee seeking mountain goat.

Again thanks for the explanations.

[actionshooter]

I just found this thread.... I have done a bit of research, I am a packgoat owner and am a longtime member of  NAPGA

The basic answer is, there has never been a documented case of packgoats transmitting disease to wild sheep and goats.   I'm not going to say it's impossible because I don't know if it is or not, but I truly believe this has been blown way out of proportion and there are some land managers keeping packgoats out of public land without any evidence.   It's BS in my opinion.

[skagitsteel]

Thanks for the info Yellowdog and Skagit Steel.  I don't know much about M.Ovi but is it ever a concern with mountain goats?  I know I've heard of bighorn herds having issues with pneumonia but not so much with mountain goats.  Are there other diseases that could be more of a goat to goat risk?  Normally I would assume that pack goat & mountain goat interactions would be even more rare but I think we've all seen photos or had an interaction with a pee seeking mountain goat.

Again thanks for the explanations.

I don't believe so. Movi already exists in many mountain goat herds and it has never caused a die off.  One of the big drivers to relocate/ kill off mountain goat herds in some places is they are afraid the mountain goats will give Movi to Wild Sheep, once again not really a threat in my opinion.  Unfortunately a lot of the Movi misinformation is driven by the wild sheep foundation and their one species management mentality.  I know they have the respect of a lot of sportsman, however their approach is not realistic and detrimental to outdoorsman's activities in general in my opinion.  They get no support from me. 

[Chesapeake]

Haven't had goats for years. When we did we vaccinated for pneumonia (yearly booster), clostridium C and D, tetanus, and maybe something else on an annual basis. I honestly don't know if this is the same pneumonia that wild sheep and goats get, but its a common domestic goat killer.
We also wormed them about every three months or so.

You can buy the vaccines at your local feed store and maybe the vet for some. Helps to have friends with goats cause you have to buy a bottle of each and you wont use much of it for a few pack goats. I'd buy the bottles and then shoot up everyone's goats a knew of. The Feed store has the syringes as well.

We didn't pack in any food other than some emergency alfalfa pellets (weed free requirement). Also packed in Epson salt, pepto bismal, some would care stuff, and their water resistant blankets.

We high lined our goats at camp when hunting. Hard to hunt with them cause they will walk all over all around you, Makes shooting and glassing difficult. We'd let them off mid day to feed and then in the evening to feed. We'd move them around so they didn't scalp the brush near camp. They would clear the highline location, so you had to keep that in mind when looking for a location.

Our goats were either on the high line or within 50 yards of us. They weren't rubbing noses with wild deer, sheep, or goats.

[renrutbocaj]

Good responses Yellowdog and Skagitsteel you guys summed it up pretty good.

My only addition besides what was mentioned about the best practice to always have your goats with you in the back country, is that they are like pets and typically in a fairly confined space at your home. Not out on open large pastures intermingling with other goats or sheep.

One of the biggest reasons there are issues with domestic sheep and wild sheep interactions and disease transmittals is from large flocks on large leases that are not monitored and/or contained to be away from potential wild sheep in the area. The same can be said in very few cases with the increased use of goat herds for back country weed control. These are large herds, not typically all tested, and not consistently monitored.

Those of us with Pack Goats are typically going to test our herds, keep closed herds without bringing in random outside goats into the herd. And always have a handle on where they are and what they might be doing.

Just my 

[skagitsteel]

Good responses Yellowdog and Skagitsteel you guys summed it up pretty good.

My only addition besides what was mentioned about the best practice to always have your goats with you in the back country, is that they are like pets and typically in a fairly confined space at your home. Not out on open large pastures intermingling with other goats or sheep.

One of the biggest reasons there are issues with domestic sheep and wild sheep interactions and disease transmittals is from large flocks on large leases that are not monitored and/or contained to be away from potential wild sheep in the area. The same can be said in very few cases with the increased use of goat herds for back country weed control. These are large herds, not typically all tested, and not consistently monitored.

Those of us with Pack Goats are typically going to test our herds, keep closed herds without bringing in random outside goats into the herd. And always have a handle on where they are and what they might be doing.

Just my 

Good points for sure! I agree the risk to wild sheep comes with large free ranging herds in the backcountry