Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID

[Buckhunter24]

People refer to Yellowstone because its a slam dunk example of what wolves do to ungulate populations with all other variables staying relatively constant. Wolves have destroyed ungulate populations everywhere they go. I saw the populations change firsthand out around the Clearwater and up the Joe, and now in NE Washington. The stress from running them in the winter has a terrible impact along with the obvious killing. I'm sure there's research out there to show otherwise, done by someone who loves wolves.

[KFhunter]

Is hunting allowed inside Yellowstone? If it isn't, why would hunters as a collective user group expect such a large influence over the publics national park?

Good info - per your question, it boils down to animals moving in and out of the park.  Both elk and wolves.  There are a number of hunts that have targeted or relied upon elk that reside at least part of the year in Yellowstone.  If elk decline, those hunts are reduced or eliminated and I believe bearpaw named some of those hunts which have indeed been stopped with the decline.  But I agree, groups other than hunters have a strong interest in issues affecting national treasures like yellowstone.

Hunters want to help control the Bison in YNP, most of the public don't want them slaughtered.

But they're driven to the local tribes, where they are slaughtered

The park don't want Hunters because animals won't be so easy to view, fearing humans.

A good example of the public not getting what they want ya?

[Hydrophilic]

Is hunting allowed inside Yellowstone? If it isn't, why would hunters as a collective user group expect such a large influence over the publics national park?

Good info - per your question, it boils down to animals moving in and out of the park.  Both elk and wolves.  There are a number of hunts that have targeted or relied upon elk that reside at least part of the year in Yellowstone.  If elk decline, those hunts are reduced or eliminated and I believe bearpaw named some of those hunts which have indeed been stopped with the decline.  But I agree, groups other than hunters have a strong interest in issues affecting national treasures like yellowstone.

I agree and understand that.

https://www.distinctlymontana.com/montana-thirty-years-wolves

[Hydrophilic]

People refer to Yellowstone because its a slam dunk example of what wolves do to ungulate populations with all other variables staying relatively constant. Wolves have destroyed ungulate populations everywhere they go. I saw the populations change firsthand out around the Clearwater and up the Joe, and now in NE Washington. The stress from running them in the winter has a terrible impact along with the obvious killing. I'm sure there's research out there to show otherwise, done by someone who loves wolves.

That's a blanket statement, and clearly not true. You don't have to cite research but please cite F&W quality data from the respective states. You will need a lot of it. Without data your assertions mean nothing, and you can dislike me saying this but it doesn't change the fact it's true.

One of my favorites is when a hunter proclaims they have seen a lot of (insert predator here) kills and tracks in their unit and therefore management is badly needed. Most of the time when pressed on the issue they can't even cite management objectives, the estimated game population, or estimated predator numbers for the particular unit, let alone other factors. That's akin to me walking into the units I hunt, not seeing any predator sign, seeing lots of elk sign, and proclaiming we need to cull the elk to boost predator numbers. That's emotional and irrational, there is no data involved. That's ridiculous.

For starters, one of the units I hunt in Oregon has had wolf activity for at least 8 years. It is not a pack on record with ODFW, who knows why, despite photo evidence of adults and offspring. This unit has a better estimated elk population than it did decades ago. It exceeds MO, even with Oregon's healthy cougar population. 2019 harvest was essentially right on par with pre wolf 2004 data. Why is this? 

I've attached historic annual bull elk harvest provided by a previous ODFW document. 2019 total bull harvest (archery and rifle) was 9,597 ( out of 15,299 total elk harvested). Plot the point on the figure I attached and evaluate the data. How does it look in comparison? Have the wolves destroyed everything in their wake? These numbers were possible in conjunction with heathy cougar populations and a high antlerless harvest rate, both can decimate given the right situation. A correct response isn't to ignore everything I've just said and to say "oh, give the wolves more time". That may or may not be true but, again, it isn't based on meaningful data and therefore means nothing.

Also, as I requested earlier, please post the data to backup your initial claim of wolves destroying ungulate populations everywhere they go. Thats a big statement so make your case to me with data from all western states please.

https://myodfw.com/articles/big-game-hunting-harvest-statistics

[Buckhunter24]

People refer to Yellowstone because its a slam dunk example of what wolves do to ungulate populations with all other variables staying relatively constant. Wolves have destroyed ungulate populations everywhere they go. I saw the populations change firsthand out around the Clearwater and up the Joe, and now in NE Washington. The stress from running them in the winter has a terrible impact along with the obvious killing. I'm sure there's research out there to show otherwise, done by someone who loves wolves.

That's a blanket statement, and clearly not true. You don't have to cite research but please cite F&W quality data from the respective states. You will need a lot of it. Without data your assertions mean nothing, and you can dislike me saying this but it doesn't change the fact it's true.

One of my favorites is when a hunter proclaims they have seen a lot of (insert predator here) kills and tracks in their unit and therefore management is badly needed. Most of the time when pressed on the issue they can't even cite management objectives, the estimated game population, or estimated predator numbers for the particular unit, let alone other factors. That's akin to me walking into the units I hunt, not seeing any predator sign, seeing lots of elk sign, and proclaiming we need to cull the elk to boost predator numbers. That's emotional and irrational, there is no data involved. That's ridiculous.

For starters, one of the units I hunt in Oregon has had wolf activity for at least 8 years. It is not a pack on record with ODFW, who knows why, despite photo evidence of adults and offspring. This unit has a better estimated elk population than it did decades ago. It exceeds MO, even with Oregon's healthy cougar population. 2019 harvest was essentially right on par with pre wolf 2004 data. Why is this? 

I've attached historic annual bull elk harvest provided by a previous ODFW document. 2019 total bull harvest (archery and rifle) was 9,597 ( out of 15,299 total elk harvested). Plot the point on the figure I attached and evaluate the data. How does it look in comparison? Have the wolves destroyed everything in their wake? These numbers were possible in conjunction with heathy cougar populations and a high antlerless harvest rate, both can decimate given the right situation. A correct response isn't to ignore everything I've just said and to say "oh, give the wolves more time". That may or may not be true but, again, it isn't based on meaningful data and therefore means nothing.

Also, as I requested earlier, please post the data to backup your initial claim of wolves destroying ungulate populations everywhere they go. Thats a big statement so make your case to me with data from all western states please.

https://myodfw.com/articles/big-game-hunting-harvest-statistics

I'm not here to write a research paper for you. Wolves only decrease ungulate populations. The more wolves there are in an area the less ungulates there are.

[Miles]

Still feeding the troll who most likely stole a profile pic?   Stop feeding them and they often disappear.

[Skyvalhunter]

So Hydrophilic why are you posting old data yes requesting us to produce data stating that the ungulate population decreases every where wolves are established? Your data ends in 97 and the wolves weren't even introduced into Yellowstone until then. Maybe you should bring something to the table more relevant!!

[idahohuntr]

Folks - can we stop with the baseless personal attacks that too frequently creep into these discussions?  Hydro is expressing an opinion and supporting it with data...feel free to rebut but lets drop these ridiculous personal attacks and accusations he's not a hunter.   

[Loup Loup]

No need to reinvent the wheel here.
To paraphrase Dr. Valerius Geist: When wolves move into an area, they vacuum that area clean of game.

[bearpaw]

People refer to Yellowstone because its a slam dunk example of what wolves do to ungulate populations with all other variables staying relatively constant. Wolves have destroyed ungulate populations everywhere they go. I saw the populations change firsthand out around the Clearwater and up the Joe, and now in NE Washington. The stress from running them in the winter has a terrible impact along with the obvious killing. I'm sure there's research out there to show otherwise, done by someone who loves wolves.

That's a blanket statement, and clearly not true. You don't have to cite research but please cite F&W quality data from the respective states. You will need a lot of it. Without data your assertions mean nothing, and you can dislike me saying this but it doesn't change the fact it's true.

One of my favorites is when a hunter proclaims they have seen a lot of (insert predator here) kills and tracks in their unit and therefore management is badly needed. Most of the time when pressed on the issue they can't even cite management objectives, the estimated game population, or estimated predator numbers for the particular unit, let alone other factors. That's akin to me walking into the units I hunt, not seeing any predator sign, seeing lots of elk sign, and proclaiming we need to cull the elk to boost predator numbers. That's emotional and irrational, there is no data involved. That's ridiculous.

For starters, one of the units I hunt in Oregon has had wolf activity for at least 8 years. It is not a pack on record with ODFW, who knows why, despite photo evidence of adults and offspring. This unit has a better estimated elk population than it did decades ago. It exceeds MO, even with Oregon's healthy cougar population. 2019 harvest was essentially right on par with pre wolf 2004 data. Why is this? 

I've attached historic annual bull elk harvest provided by a previous ODFW document. 2019 total bull harvest (archery and rifle) was 9,597 ( out of 15,299 total elk harvested). Plot the point on the figure I attached and evaluate the data. How does it look in comparison? Have the wolves destroyed everything in their wake? These numbers were possible in conjunction with heathy cougar populations and a high antlerless harvest rate, both can decimate given the right situation. A correct response isn't to ignore everything I've just said and to say "oh, give the wolves more time". That may or may not be true but, again, it isn't based on meaningful data and therefore means nothing.

Also, as I requested earlier, please post the data to backup your initial claim of wolves destroying ungulate populations everywhere they go. Thats a big statement so make your case to me with data from all western states please.

https://myodfw.com/articles/big-game-hunting-harvest-statistics

Per your own proclamation, you will need to show us where ODFW says there are wolves in that unit or they aren't there! Your suggested data and assertions are useless and unverifiable!

[vandeman17]

Folks - can we stop with the baseless personal attacks that too frequently creep into these discussions?  Hydro is expressing an opinion and supporting it with data...feel free to rebut but lets drop these ridiculous personal attacks and accusations he's not a hunter.   

A member who recently joined and has only posted on this particular thread with old data while demanding people with opposing views produce new data... color me skeptical. If it walks like a troll and acts like a troll... 

[Buckhunter24]

I should have put 2 and 2 together with the pack of elk comment

[Crunchy]

Well since someone here mentioned Oregon wolves I will chime in with my first hand experience.  I have hunted the same unit for the last 15 years in Eastern Oregon.  About 4-5 years ago wolves moved in and decimated the elk numbers.  Found an ODFW trail cam with pack 47 or 49 written on it.  In the same area found 3 fairly fresh wolf kills in a .5 mile square area.  Got wolves on my own trail camera.  To say that wolves will not decimate an area of deer and elk is just a lie.  I called ODFW and left a message to talk about the wolf impact but no return call.  I emailed them the pictures of the elk kills and info about the elk numbers since the wolves moved in.  You would think that they would want to know first hand knowledge about what a wolf pack has been doing to the elk and deer numbers, but it does not appear that they do. 

[KopperBuck]

Mt Emily is gonna be a desert soon. Mark my words.

[MR5x5]

Do wolves eat?  Yes, a lot.  Therefor they have an annul impact that is pretty easy to estimate and it is not insignificant.  Are bear and cougar numbers up?  Yes.  Do they eat.  Yes.  I get all the other factors.  But there is no way to deny that adding another apex taker into the mix does not have a net negative effect.  Add it up.  How many deer/elk do 3000+ plus wolves in Idaho eat year after year?  Then tell me again what the load of poles sold to Idaho called for in terms of the target wolf population...

There is a darn good reason to be frustrated.