Closing the ES gap, whats your secrect?

[Hilltop123]

Well got back to the reloading bench after some time away.  Working on a new load, with a new to me bullet,. Right out the gate, first 5 shots, sub MOA. I'm tickled with the grouping, but my old nemisis is back, an ES of 36.  Or am I just OCD, maybe an ES of 36 is great. What are your thoughts and what do you do to narrow the gap?

[hogslayer]

I stop worrying about ES when it gets to 20 or below.  Here is a list of things that i have found to cause high ES.

Trying different primers
Don't clean the necks.  Use nylon brush in the necks before dumping powder.
Different amount of neck tension
Seating depth is off
Wrong powder for bullet/cartridge combo.

If you do some digging around online, you can usually find what others are having success with.   Switching primers is a easy test and will show itself quickly.  If i am trying to squeeze a little more accuracy out of a rifle, i'll shoot (3) 3 shot groups with incremental powder with different primers.  It becomes very obvious which one will shoot the best. 

[Magnum_Willys]

 

With the right load and seating depth and Die I think it all solves itself.   But if bullet length and/or weight, brass length and/or weight, annealing time/temp, seating depth or  powder charge varies the errors will combine and show up as high ES. 

Best solution IMO is do a ladder test at 1000 and pick what shoots best.

That said, in a quest to minimize es,  for my Lapua loads getting to single digits:

I now anneal everytime with an Amp,
I sort cases by number of times shot, use bergers (Smk’s vary too much),
Body size brass, then neck size with Lee Collet for .001 runout
4 strokes with nylon brush through neck.
Chamfer inside/outside neck and clean primer pocket.
Use 0000 steel wool in socket and polish neck end.
Spray liquid graphite in jar, tilt jar and dip neck in it.
Load powder to within .02 gr using FX-120i lab scale.
Seat to within .001 length showing consistency. 
Use Redding seater rotating brass 3 times on way down.

I do not weigh brass, bullets, or primers but some do.  I am going to experiment with sorting primers by weight in the future .  Sounds crazy but why load powder to within .02 then use primers with .2 gr variance in explosive content is the theory.

[JJB11B]

Erik Cortina has some YouTube videos that address this, maybe look there for some help

[TooTallMike]

Erik Cortina has some YouTube videos that address this, maybe look there for some help

 
Also check out bolt action reloading on youtube. Lots and lots of great info.

[Stein]

I worked mine down nicely this year.

Try as many primers as you can find.

Try different brass.

Try to tighten up your reloading, same charge, same seating depth, measure every round.

That assumes you start with a good powder number, if not do that first.


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[Jason]

Erik Cortina has some YouTube videos that address this, maybe look there for some help

 
Also check out bolt action reloading on youtube. Lots and lots of great info.

Erik has some great videos. He doesn't make it sound over complicated when he's talking.

[CaNINE]

One of the most important considerations is light and even neck tension.

[Crunchy]

One of the most important considerations is light and even neck tension.

You think light and even or just consistent neck tension between cases?

[Hilltop123]

Erik Cortina has some YouTube videos that address this, maybe look there for some help

 
Also check out bolt action reloading on youtube. Lots and lots of great info.

Erik has some great videos. He doesn't make it sound over complicated when he's talking.

I'll check him out, thanks. Thanks to everyones input.

[Karl Blanchard]

Buy quality dies and buy quality brass and don't shoot cheap bullets like Hornady who have terrible lot to lot variances. Those three things will shrink ES to acceptable levels with no extra effort.  Before all the sweet new gun laws I used to do load development for people as a side hobby. Ive done workups on well over a hundred rifles. Good brass, good dies, good bullets 

[Magnum_Willys]

Good Dies for sure - and “good” is as much matching your chamber as it is brand.  I’ve found on large cases you may have to try several to find one that matches  your chamber well enough for low es on its own.   Have dies that are fabulous in one rifle but not so great on another.

And custom Whidden dies never yet worked for me.

Would like to try Warner dies some day but big $$$

[buckfvr]

One of the most important considerations is light and even neck tension.

You think light and even or just consistent neck tension between cases?

In one word as far as components go, "uniformity".  That word applies to neck tension as well and is easily achieved with uniform high quality brass that has been uniformed.

[Magnum_Willys]

Been said that consistant hold and shoulder resistance has impact on es also.  I.e. firm vs soft .

[jasnt]

Buy quality dies and buy quality brass and don't shoot cheap bullets like Hornady who have terrible lot to lot variances. Those three things will shrink ES to acceptable levels with no extra effort.  Before all the sweet new gun laws I used to do load development for people as a side hobby. Ive done workups on well over a hundred rifles. Good brass, good dies, good bullets 

What is acceptable es will depend on the distance you shoot and amount of precision you desire at that distance.  I’ve seen es of 100+ shoot one hole groups at 100 yards.  The farther you plan to shoot the more es can affect your accuracy but not always the case.  It’s best to just go shoot those distances and see how your load performs.  Then decide if you want better

[CaNINE]

Been said that consistant hold and shoulder resistance has impact on es also.  I.e. firm vs soft .

It’s crazy stuff. I have seen ES and velocity change markedly just by altering where the contact point is on my front rest or loading my bipod differently.  Consistency consistency consistency.

[CaNINE]

One of the most important considerations is light and even neck tension.

You think light and even or just consistent neck tension between cases?

I haven’t run an experiment on it but my judgement tells me that light and consistent is better than heavy and consistent.  I want to minimize the disruption forces on the bullet as it starts it journey. I aim for 0.002” using an expander mandrel with dry carbon lube.

[actionshooter]

 I think a lot of the time our OCD takes over, myself included. Chasing the magical numbers is fine if you enjoy doing it, but I would rather get the load dialed to what's acceptable to me ( about .75" and 20ES) and then spend my time shooting.

This is a really god article..
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/?fbclid=IwAR2VlxY3wk9l1tu64DAvrrVU5x7Fo-vxPmZxd59MVqCb_r6gnRBhNfhihkQ

[CaNINE]

Agreed. It’s easy to get up in the minutiae. 

[Magnum_Willys]

Agreed. It’s easy to get up in the minutiae.

There’s always a better load out there......

I draw the line at short range stuff tho.  Trying to shoot .2 vs .3 groups at 100 would drive me crazy.

[hogslayer]

Neck tension on the bullet should be consistent when using bushing dies.  Annealing every time and keeping track of them in firing order is important.  Neck tension (not seating force) can have a big influence on accuracy and es.  I test it often and it’s eye opening.  My 300 wsm shoots great with .004+ neck tension.   I have found that bigger cases seem to like less (338’s).  Usually either light (.0015-.002) or heavy (.004-.005) will work best.  Haven’t found a happy one around .003 that works well.
 Reloading is my hobby and I enjoy testing/tweaking stuff.

[Hilltop123]

Buy quality dies and buy quality brass and don't shoot cheap bullets like Hornady who have terrible lot to lot variances. Those three things will shrink ES to acceptable levels with no extra effort.  Before all the sweet new gun laws I used to do load development for people as a side hobby. Ive done workups on well over a hundred rifles. Good brass, good dies, good bullets 

OK, I can understand your dislike of the red box. I'm pretty sure you like the yellow box, so whats your opinion on the green box?

[jasnt]

Buy quality dies and buy quality brass and don't shoot cheap bullets like Hornady who have terrible lot to lot variances. Those three things will shrink ES to acceptable levels with no extra effort.  Before all the sweet new gun laws I used to do load development for people as a side hobby. Ive done workups on well over a hundred rifles. Good brass, good dies, good bullets 

OK, I can understand your dislike of the red box. I'm pretty sure you like the yellow box, so whats your opinion on the green box?

You could easily answer that for your self.  Pull out 10 bullets from the green box and measure them. Check the bearing surface length, total length, then weigh them. 

If your one that dosent like the yellow or orange box then you could look at the nosler.  Personally i hate em but I’m prejudice.

[Magnum_Willys]

I greatly prefer the SMK 300’s over the Bergers for terminal performance.  But the bullet to bullet and lot to lot variations force me to use the Bergers.

[TooTallMike]

In my(limited) experience


Having quality brass was the biggest factor in dropping ES and shrinking groups for me. I tried different primers, powders, bullets, searing depth/charges, and everything in between. But once I switched to quality brass I found multiple loads that were outstanding and beyond my capabilities

[Stein]

In my(limited) experience


Having quality brass was the biggest factor in dropping ES and shrinking groups for me. I tried different primers, powders, bullets, searing depth/charges, and everything in between. But once I switched to quality brass I found multiple loads that were outstanding and beyond my capabilities

 

I ran a test where I just sorted headstamps and tested 5 shot groups with each, keeping everything else the same.  It was by far the biggest factor in ES, more than charge weight, seating depth, crimp/no crimp, neck tension or primer brand.   RP cases had an ES of 55 and Wins had 17 and that was in a suboptimal load I later tightened down.  SD was 7.2 and 24 for those two cases.