New bill will greatly impact DIY nonresident hunters in Montana

[ctwiggs1]

Not too exciting, the speed goat variety.  I don't even put in for the shaggy ones.

OK, I withdraw my vote on your ban

[Skyvalhunter]

Weren't we lead to believe it was to support the outfitters that were having a hard time making ends meet?

sure were. The whole Newberg podcast was about how this was meant to stabilize the outfitter industry in MT.

Follow the money, look at the bill sponsor and where he got money.  It wasn't from guides.

Here you go the bill is sponsored by Ellsworth, Jason here are his contributors what stands out for you?
$180.00 Baker, Mark
$180.00 Baker, Mark
$180.00 Brown for SD2, Dee
$20.00 Brown for SD2, Dee
$100.00 Cote, Francis G
$180.00 Fitzpatrick, Steve J
$100.00 Fuchs, Daniel C.
$180.00 Hertz, Gregory J
$180.00 Hertz, Gregory
$180.00 Hinebauch, Steve
$180.00 Hinebauch, Steve
$180.00 Iverson, John D
$180.00 McGillvray, Thomas
$120.00 McGillvray, Thomas
$70.00 Reichner, Scott M
$180.00 Reichner, Scott M
$180.00 Sales, Scott
$180.00 Taylor, Elaine J
$180.00 Taylor, Elaine J
$180.00 Taylor, Mark
$180.00 Taylor, Mark
$180.00 Thomas, Fred
$180.00 Thomas, Fred
$180.00 Blasdel, Mark
$180.00 Hoven, Brian E
$170.00 Gianforte, Greg R
$180.00 gieger, bob
$180.00 gieger, bob
$180.00 hartman, Paul
$180.00 hartman, Paul

[Stein]

The fact that it's super cheap to get your voice heard in states like MT where influential legislators can come from small towns where a campaign may cost $5-10k.  In his case, he loaned his campaign $70k and is trying to get repaid.  There are also ways to contribute other than straight cash donations that don't show up there.

It is kind of hard to follow though since the numbers are small.  He certainly didn't like the amendment, Tom Jacobson from Great Falls threw the guides under the bus by referencing the 2010 law that removed guide tags.

I have no doubt that wealthy landowners know how to work the system.

[Stein]

Dug a bit deeper, the bill also sets aside a new 2,000 tags for "landowner sponsored" tags where you can buy one if you are sponsored by a qualified landowner.  This would increase the total number of tags issued and they would also cost more.

There are negotiations to reduce the amount of guide tags to the amount of tags currently issued to guided customers, maybe 40%.

So, two underlying reasons:

1 - Guides want more tags for their clients.
2 - Landowners want guaranteed tags for their NR friends and families.

The bill's sponsor seems to be in camp 1.

There might be a 3 forming - Legislators are looking for more loot.  Depending on the proposal, it could be up to $5M more for FWP every year.

[dvolmer]

Dug a bit deeper, the bill also sets aside a new 2,000 tags for "landowner sponsored" tags where you can buy one if you are sponsored by a qualified landowner.  This would increase the total number of tags issued and they would also cost more.

There are negotiations to reduce the amount of guide tags to the amount of tags currently issued to guided customers, maybe 40%.

So, two underlying reasons:

1 - Guides want more tags for their clients.
2 - Landowners want guaranteed tags for their NR friends and families.

The bill's sponsor seems to be in camp 1.

There might be a 3 forming - Legislators are looking for more loot.  Depending on the proposal, it could be up to $5M more for FWP every year.

Stein, It was my understanding that there was already a 2000 quota for Landowner preference tags.  Would this be different? and if so, how? By the way, thanks for all of the intel you are doing on this issue.

[ctwiggs1]

Dug a bit deeper, the bill also sets aside a new 2,000 tags for "landowner sponsored" tags where you can buy one if you are sponsored by a qualified landowner.  This would increase the total number of tags issued and they would also cost more.

There are negotiations to reduce the amount of guide tags to the amount of tags currently issued to guided customers, maybe 40%.

So, two underlying reasons:

1 - Guides want more tags for their clients.
2 - Landowners want guaranteed tags for their NR friends and families.

The bill's sponsor seems to be in camp 1.

There might be a 3 forming - Legislators are looking for more loot.  Depending on the proposal, it could be up to $5M more for FWP every year.

Stein, It was my understanding that there was already a 2000 quota for Landowner preference tags.  Would this be different? and if so, how? By the way, thanks for all of the intel you are doing on this issue.

No, this is building off of the already existing 2000 landowner tags. 

[Brushbuster]

Dug a bit deeper, the bill also sets aside a new 2,000 tags for "landowner sponsored" tags where you can buy one if you are sponsored by a qualified landowner.  This would increase the total number of tags issued and they would also cost more.

There are negotiations to reduce the amount of guide tags to the amount of tags currently issued to guided customers, maybe 40%.

So, two underlying reasons:

1 - Guides want more tags for their clients.
2 - Landowners want guaranteed tags for their NR friends and families.

The bill's sponsor seems to be in camp 1.

There might be a 3 forming - Legislators are looking for more loot.  Depending on the proposal, it could be up to $5M more for FWP every year.

Stein, It was my understanding that there was already a 2000 quota for Landowner preference tags.  Would this be different? and if so, how? By the way, thanks for all of the intel you are doing on this issue.

No, this is building off of the already existing 2000 landowner tags.

As I understand it, the 2/15 Admendentment removed the portion of the bill that allocates the tags only to Outfitters. All it does now is create an earlier draw for those that want to pay more (40-50% of the tags).

SB0143_3.pdf (mt.gov)

I got from listening to the hearing the bill does not create any additional NR Landowner tags also.

Not impressed listening to legislators/outfitters impressions of NR DIY hunters. 

[Stein]

My bad, I wasn't aware of existing landowner tags.

Yeah, having lived in MT for a long time and having friends and family still there, I can attest to how the locals and guides view anyone from out of state.  I have been trying to talk my brother into buying a truck so I can swap him during hunting season.

It will be interesting to see where the bill goes.  My crystal ball seems to be centering on a price increase for NR tags as that is the one thing all sides in MT can agree on.

[Brushbuster]

Surprised the outfitters weren't more upset with the Amendment to the Bill. Hope there are no surprises in the works! 

Hoping we all get tags from MT this year! 

[Bigshooter]

I say it on here all the time.  If you want to hunt out of state you need to be ready for fee increases and you need to plan for them.  It's part of the game.  Increases aren't worth complaining about it.  They happen all the time. 

[dvolmer]

I say it on here all the time.  If you want to hunt out of state you need to be ready for fee increases and you need to plan for them.  It's part of the game.  Increases aren't worth complaining about it.  They happen all the time.

Yep!  Probably wont happen for awhile, but you might see the day that the tag and license cost as much as hiring an outfitter. 

[kselkhunter]

 

The increase in Idaho tags has me contemplating a trip into British Columbia as an alternative.   As states continue raising non-resident prices, Canada starts coming into range.....   I know some places that do $6K-$8K for a (non-trophy) moose hunt in BC....and with Idaho being almost $3K now just for a chance at a moose tag.....that BC hunt gets you food, lodging, guaranteed tag, and a guide included in the price.   Similar story coming soon for MT, WY, etc. when you factor in the license/application costs for all the years it takes to actually draw a tag soon..... 

If Montana continues down the path, it will balance out with less non-residents applying eventually as they keep increasing prices. 

[whacker1]

The increase in Idaho tags has me contemplating a trip into British Columbia as an alternative.   As states continue raising non-resident prices, Canada starts coming into range.....   I know some places that do $6K-$8K for a (non-trophy) moose hunt in BC....and with Idaho being almost $3K now just for a chance at a moose tag.....that BC hunt gets you food, lodging, guaranteed tag, and a guide included in the price.   Similar story coming soon for MT, WY, etc. when you factor in the license/application costs for all the years it takes to actually draw a tag soon..... 

If Montana continues down the path, it will balance out with less non-residents applying eventually as they keep increasing prices. 

well said on the canada comment vs moose in idaho.  other species a little tougher.

[BULLBLASTER]

The increase in Idaho tags has me contemplating a trip into British Columbia as an alternative.   As states continue raising non-resident prices, Canada starts coming into range.....   I know some places that do $6K-$8K for a (non-trophy) moose hunt in BC....and with Idaho being almost $3K now just for a chance at a moose tag.....that BC hunt gets you food, lodging, guaranteed tag, and a guide included in the price.   Similar story coming soon for MT, WY, etc. when you factor in the license/application costs for all the years it takes to actually draw a tag soon..... 

If Montana continues down the path, it will balance out with less non-residents applying eventually as they keep increasing prices.

I dont think your wording of $3000 just for a chance at a moose tag protrays reality. While you do have to front the tag fee most of it is refunded of you are unsuccessful. I also dont think you can compare a canada non trophy hunt to a majority of idaho tags. You can hunt the entire season vs 5-7 days in canada and you have the opportunity yo scout and trophy hunt if you desire. Of course there is the fact that you may never draw idaho.

[kselkhunter]

The term "trophy moose" means something different in Canada than it does in Idaho.  What you refer to as "trophy" moose in Idaho is just a normal moose in British Columbia.  "Trophy Moose" to Canada outfitters means the much larger Yukon moose up north.   Those hunts go for $10K-$15K.  Hence why I made the point to differentiate "non trophy" in my original comment, as folks educated on Canada hunt costs would have called me out on my $5K-$8K moose hunt cost otherwise.  British Columbia has far more moose than Idaho, and bigger ones, in the "non trophy" classification.


Yes I'm aware the tag is refunded in Idaho if not drawn.  I'm also aware their tag numbers are going down, and their license and tag fees keep going up every few years.  If you fail to draw for 10 years, that's over $1,850+ in license costs that you funded for those attempts to draw the tag....you have to add those costs in too.....   Also, I live 20 hour round trip drive from most good Idaho moose units, so "hunt the entire season" isn't that apealling to me.  Taking 2-4x trips for that moose hunt would make it significantly more expensive in travel and hunt costs having to repeatedly go over.


The point is, Idaho is now expensive enough when factoring in all costs that a guaranteed tag in Canada is looking more appealing.  Remembering that Canada has far more moose than Idaho so you don't need to keep going back over and over to find a larger moose "hunting an entire season", you just go a few miles and find a bigger one the same week......


So Canada = higher odds of filling a tag on a larger moose in a much shorter time frame for what is becoming a similar costs when factoring in all costs associated with waiting to draw that Idaho moose tag......