Tradition

[Machias]

Probably going to get a little bloodied over this, but I have some pretty strong feelings on this subject so...here goes.  I grew up hunting turkeys in the great turkey state of Missouri.  There is some pretty firm traditions in the deep south and the midwest concerning turkey hunting traditions and ethics.  I have watched the last few years as the great sport of turkey hunting is spreading and really taking hold here in the NW, something I'm very happy about.  But being this sport of turkey hunting is new and many of todays turkey hunters did not grow up hunting turkeys there is no real traditions and "brotherhood imposed" ethics on how to harvest a turkey.  Where I grew up there were rules of engagement and to break those rules meant you would receive scorn and disaproval from the guys I grew up wanting to emulate.  Ambushing or sneaking up on turkeys was akin to shooting into a bunched up covey of quail or a rooster pheasent on the ground.  Not illegal at all, but certainly frowned upon.  Unless you were a kid on his first turkey hunt, shooting jakes was deeply frowned upon.  It was all about the battle of calling in a longbeard into, for sure, killing range, then you would have the real and deep statisfaction of knowing you did battle with a cagy old bird.  That was one of my complaints about giving a free turkey tag with the small game lic.  Make it $5  or whatever, but make folks learn about what turkey hunting is and is not.  It shouldn't just be about notching a tag and killing a gobbler any ol way.  I'm sure guys will say hey if it's legal don't worry about it.  But we all know there are certain things that we should condone and certain things we should say hay congrats on your harvest, BUT next time it would be much better to do it this way.     

[jackelope]

i don't think there's anything wrong with what you said.  good stuff.

i killed a jake my first year turkey hunting out here, which was 4 years ago or so. decided at that point not to shoot any more jakes. could have shot one sunday, but didn't for 2 reasons...1 it was a jake, 2 we kind of walked up on him in the road. i want to call in a gobbling longbeard and kill him at 15 yards right before he opens up a can of woopass on my deke.

[rasbo]

traditions or just plain old ethics..ya either have them or ya don't.I'm with you some things we can but shouldn't do..

[Machias]

I don't want to say it's bad ethics, back home it would be considered that, but up here there has been no traditions passed down through several generations, so saying someone snuck up and killed a gobbler here in the Inland NW is bad ethics is a bit harsh, how would they know any difference?  It would just be good if the great traditions of turkey hunting started to creep into the NW and I see the only way that happening is if we make folks aware. 

[Diehard0123]

good points, I have passed on several gobblers because I felt it was not an ethical shot. 

[WCTaxidermy]

Great points Machias.  I don't know why you would get beat up over those statements.  Over the years, I find myself getting more enjoyment over seeing a youngster, or a first time hunter I take out who is enjoying the outdoors and the thrill of the hunt, than me filling my Turkey tag or limiting out on Ducks.  You made some great points.  John

[Ridgeratt]

Bravo Machias!!!
 You did leave out a few other pet peeves such as shooting a roosted bird, Wells Fargoing a bird out of a driveway from the pickup window and then scrambling to get it before the person in the house got outside. This early season on my way north I watched a sportsman teaching his son the true meaning of hunting while the lad was running along the guard rail on 395 shooting over it at a turkie. I can imagine the story of how that bird was called in. As opposed to we sluiced it off the black top! Also the guy that hunts from a truck rolling along then stops the truck gets out slams the doors and calls gets nothing and jumps in starts the truck with the music pounding and drives another 300 feet and repeats the same process.

 I have a standing invitation to go to Oklahoma every year to call birds for a good friend. Like you said they do hunt birds differant. You don't sneak and bird you bed them and then go hunt them.

[jackelope]

I don't want to say it's bad ethics, back home it would be considered that, but up here there has been no traditions passed down through several generations, so saying someone snuck up and killed a gobbler here in the Inland NW is bad ethics is a bit harsh, how would they know any difference?  It would just be good if the great traditions of turkey hunting started to creep into the NW and I see the only way that happening is if we make folks aware.

that is an important part of this topic. the turkey hunting traditions and such are typically brought here from somewhere else. i know it is kind of a laughing matter out west, but watch some of the hunting shows...there was a recent show on with waddell and a bunch of old southern hunters talking about tradition and the excitement that leads up to turkey season in the south. we will never have anything like that out here. it was neat to watch.

[fishunt247]

Thanks for making this an official topic. I've often posted the likes of this thread in response to hearing these kinds of statements on other threads. Stalking turkeys, shooting them out of the roost, road hunting: all are unethical...to me. I get what you guys are saying on how we can't call anything unethical, but it is what it is.

As for shooting jakes...um...if you want to call in a gobbling turkey and don't care about beard size, and a jake comes in gobbling, I don't have a problem with anybody shooting one. I've only shot two in my life, and wouldn't now, but I'm not going to tell someone they shouldn't do it. That's just my opinion though.

Here's more of a stretch on your topic; things I think are "unethical." 1: Ambushing a gobbler in the evening by simply waiting for him under his accustomed roost tree. 2: Sitting over a food plot with decoys out hoping turkeys will come into the plot, see the dekes, and come in. 3: Really, for me, any method of killing a turkey where you don't CALL him to you.

[Machias]

For me there is a distinction, shooting from the road is illegal and unethical, shooting a jake or ambushing is not unethical, but it is not what turkey hunting is about or should be about, IMNSHO.  I think there is a line I'm not willing to cross and call someone out,     It's perfectly legal to ambush a bird, it's perfectly legal to shoot ducks sitting on the water or a pheasant on the ground, but guys frown on it.  So I want to be careful here and not be too harsh on someone ambushing a turkey.  In reality they can say, so what, could care less of your opinion, that is perfectly in their right.  Stalking turkeys is very dangerous game to play and eventually someone is going to get shot or someone's deke is going to get hammered...already happen to a member here.  So it's not illegal, it's just not a smart move in most circumstances.  Read some of the old time turkey books if you really want to get a sense of what is in the old timey rules of engagement, follow them if you want, I believe you'll have a much safer and more satisfying hunt.

[General Disarray]

I agree whole heartedly with a lot of that but basically saying it's wrong to shoot a jake is horse crap in my opinion.  We don't have 4 billion turkeys in the woods like the great state of Missouri and calling in ANY gobbler on public ground in WA can be a challenge.  Any turkey killed THE RIGHT WAY is a trophy in my eyes.  I hate it when I hear someone say they killed a bird, "but it was JUST a jake".  I learned long ago to never use the word "just" in describing an animal you have harvested. 

If we all agreed with Missouri "traditions", we'd marry our sisters and have affairs with our cousins....

[fishunt247]

What about shooting bearded hens? It's legal, but... I wouldn't do it, mostly because this time of year they are preparing a nest or already have a nest hopefully containing gobblers for years to come. And I've called in plenty of hens and they have never got me going like a gobbler does.

[boneaddict]

All good points.  

( I was trying to compare in my mind shooting a jake versus a spike buck when it was legal)  I never judged anyone for it, but after the first kill, probably wouldn't do it.)  I realize thats off topic a bit since this is Traditioanl Turkey hunting we are tlaking here.

[boneaddict]

How about super long shots..........   I guess it comes down to harvest verus tradition in todays mindset maybe. 

[C-Money]

Jake's vs Longbeards??? Guess it depends on how hungry you are for turkey. Personal preference? Guess at this point this year, I'd shoot a legal bird that came to my call, Jake or tom. I have killed some large long beards in Pennsylvania, but I have only killed one WA turkey. It was a Jake, back in the 90's.

[Machias]

I agree whole heartedly with a lot of that but basically saying it's wrong to shoot a jake is horse crap in my opinion.  We don't have 4 billion turkeys in the woods like the great state of Missouri and calling in ANY gobbler on public ground in WA can be a challenge.  Any turkey killed THE RIGHT WAY is a trophy in my eyes.  I hate it when I hear someone say they killed a bird, "but it was JUST a jake".  I learned long ago to never use the word "just" in describing an animal you have harvested. 

If we all agreed with Missouri "traditions", we'd marry our sisters and have affairs with our cousins....

I think you have Missouri mistaken for West Virgina   

Shoot all the jakes you want.      If that is how you measure success, more power to you.  However jakes harvested never make it to longbeard status and please there are MORE then enough turkeys in WA to pass on jakes and still harvest a longbeard.  But you'll never progress and be an accomplished turkey hunter if you keep on shooting the dumbest bird in the woods.  Your skill level will never go up.  If it's just about putting a bird in the freezer, heck the butterballs taste way better and they are a bunch cheaper as well.

C-Money I'm not picking on you but.

"Guess at this point this year, I'd shoot a legal bird that came to my call, Jake or tom." 

At this point in the season?  It's just a week old, the best part of the season is a couple of weeks away, no rush my friend.

[fishunt247]

Good point bone, I was thinking the same thing, but for elk. Should we not shoot any elk (spike only) in eastern washington?

Ethics are a sticky topic, but interesting to discuss. My final idea on jakes is that I don't care if anyone shoots them at all, but for me I'd rather wait for a longbeard.

And we have just reached prime time in the season C-Money. I love hunting the 20's (April 20th to May 1). I kill 90% of my birds during that time frame. So keep at it, it's just now getting good.

[Intruder]

Machias... you are spot on buddy!!!!

I couldn't agree more with you.  Stalking, ambushing and Jake Shooting is not what the great sport is about.  While not illegal some of this is dangerous or can mess up other hunters.  Jakes for kids or a person's first is fine but they shouldn't be targeted.  I know mistakes have been made when the intention was to kill a long beard and a Jake was taken instead but those are rare. 

Great post!!!!

[Buglinbulls]

My remarks will probably just prove your main point, that the "tradition" of respectable turkey hunting strategies is being lost on new generations in the sport.  However, I have never understood this mentality, that the only way to respectfully harvest a gobbler is by calling one in.  I've called in plenty of bull elk, and I've stalked plenty of bull elk, and I get a similar thrill from both strategies.

I am definitely a "newcomer" to the sport of turkey hunting, and this is the first year that I have lived in a state with a turkey population that allows me to buy a tag over the counter.  But I can tell you this, whether I call in a gobbler this weekend or stalk within range to stick one with an arrow, I'll be equally excited.  I will not feel "embarrassed" or "unethical" if I manage to sneak within lethal bow range to seal the deal.  I guess I don't understand why so many avid turkey hunters harp about how smart the birds are and how difficult it is to make a stalk on a turkey, but turn around and say how "disrespectful" it is to the bird, and how "unethical" it is as a hunting strategy. 

Just my  , now go ahead and tell me how wrong I am.       

[300UltraMagShooter]

I agree 100%.

I particularly don't like any talk that divides hunters. 

There has to be a way to allow people to have their own views and traditions without wanting it to become a type of "law" or judgement.

I figure it is good to have these types of things as tradition, but not take it any further than that.

 

My remarks will probably just prove your main point, that the "tradition" of respectable turkey hunting strategies is being lost on new generations in the sport.  However, I have never understood this mentality, that the only way to respectfully harvest a gobbler is by calling one in.  I've called in plenty of bull elk, and I've stalked plenty of bull elk, and I get a similar thrill from both strategies.

I am definitely a "newcomer" to the sport of turkey hunting, and this is the first year that I have lived in a state with a turkey population that allows me to buy a tag over the counter.  But I can tell you this, whether I call in a gobbler this weekend or stalk within range to stick one with an arrow, I'll be equally excited.  I will not feel "embarrassed" or "unethical" if I manage to sneak within lethal bow range to seal the deal.  I guess I don't understand why so many avid turkey hunters harp about how smart the birds are and how difficult it is to make a stalk on a turkey, but turn around and say how "disrespectful" it is to the bird, and how "unethical" it is as a hunting strategy. 

Just my  , now go ahead and tell me how wrong I am.       

[Machias]

Stalking turkeys is extremely dangerous, less so out here then back in the mid west and the south where spring time vegitation is much thicker and greener, but it is none the less very dangerous here.  Most turkey hunting accidents occurr when folks sneak in on a set up and either shoot a decoy, hitting the concealed hunter nearby or get shot themselves sneaking in on a gobbling bird because they have no idea someone is already talking to that bird and trying to call it into range.  Sometimes tradition is born out of safety.  You don't wear red, white or blue while in the woods turkey hunting, it's not against the law but pretty stupid none the less.  Stalking a bugling bull and a gobbling turkey are very different endeavors.  You will also wound more turkeys trying to sneak in and take a running shot then if you call him into range.  These birds can be hard to put down, they shouldn't be shot at while running or flying, way too likely to wound them.

I don't understand how talking about traditional ways to harvest a majestic bird is dividing hunters.  I'm not telling them they HAVE to hunt this way, I'm trying to convey where the sport of turkey hunting has come from and the history.  My words on this site will not change how a person chooses to pursue something.  If your not interested in hunting turkeys by what millions of turkey hunters accross this nation feel are fair chase rules of engagement, then don't.  Engage in risky behavior for you and the birds.  But you will never get the satisfaction of becoming a good turkey hunter, you'll be a good turkey killer, that's all.  And if that is all your interested in then really you should save yourself some time and money and buy a butterball.

[fishunt247]

Not only is it dangerous, I just can't imagine it being as exciting (or exciting at all) as calling a bird to you: you aren't making him gobble, you aren't outsmarting his natural instinct of waiting for the hens to come to him, etc. When I'm closing the distance between me and a gobbler on the roost, its really not exciting but rather as a matter-of-fact process that will lead to excitement once he flies down. But to each his own I suppose.

[Phantom Gobbler]

If traditions are important, and I believe they are......then try bowhunting turkeys for additional challenge.  We called 4 Toms in and missed two shots with bows last week. In one of the setups, we struck a fired up bird and called the large gobbler in within minutes.  He came in full strut, spitting and drumming at 30 yards, but we could not draw the bow back without getting busted!!  Great memories and part of the fun of getting out there.

   

[fishunt247]

I think it would be quite the challenge, but also think that turkey hunting (as we know it) is traditionally a shotgun sport. I bow hunt for elk, and think it would be fun to try for turkey hunting, but many of the places I hunt I don't think it would be as feasable (blind isn't possible, to thick=deflections, etc). But I commend folks for doing it that way for sure.

[Tom Tamer]

I can agree to somw extent, as a life long Wash. resident and now a devout Turkey NUT I want to see a traditon become in this state, but on some of the ethics I question why they are deemed unethical.

 In the case of stalking, now just running through the woods spotting a bird and sneaking on it I won't do, I'll call it. But in the heat of the battle and repositioning is required??? DO you think that is fair? I do. My largest Tom was my First Eastern, I could not get him to break toward me til noon, but a hen lured him away, I got up used the lay of the land, got next to them clucked once he poked his head up and BOOM.... I find nothing unethical about that? I also had a gobbler once on a ridge, while using the terrain to hide myself to get into position to set up, I ended up coming into view of him at ten yards.I ended that hunt to. I located him through locator calls first. If I see one in a field I won;t run after him I don't think too much of that stuff, but to me the two I explained hear show the use of woodsmanship in my view? Knowing the land and what the birds are doing.

 I don't totally agree with it not being right to set under a roost tree in the evening, you'd set up there before dawn? Why not dusk? Setting and waitng for birds to come through an area is not unethical, it show me that you know and have scouted the birds? Now a food plot? Well it' techincally illegal to do that in this state anyway, you can't knowingly bait Turkeys. But would you set in a plowed field that the birds frequent?

 Jakes I think are a personal prefrence, personally I try and make the entir hunt my trophy, not the size of the bird. Last year I bagged two Jakes and were very special to me, first one was alongside my wife on her first successful hunt. Nothing cooler thatn both of us taggin out on that one. My Second one was with my entire family, my 3 yr old son had never seen me bring home a bird, adn my 7 yr old Daughter was so excitied....that was the trophy in my book. This year my Dad took his first Eastern( Jake) his first bird in over five years. I couldn't be prouder of him.
 Biologically I hav read numerous articles where Jake taking has no ill effects on a flock, turkeys have a 50% mortality rate regardless of hunting or not. SO half those Jakes don't make it through the winter. And also on that the sex ratio of turkey hatches are 50/50. I feel it's a personal preference on that just is spike buck(where legal) and so on. I'm going on a hunt to the SE in hopes for my first Rio, while wanting a Limb hanger If it comes down to the last day I'll shoot a short beard to culminate what no doubt will be a great hunt, regardless if I discharge my gun or not

[turkey slayer]

I agree with Tom Tamer 100% with his last statement.

[Machias]

Great discussion and good points and thoughts, thanks everyone.  One last thought from me, quite a few species we pursue have traditions attached to them.  I don't know many self respecting waterfowlers who shoot ducks and geese while they are swimming amongst the dekes or pheasant and quail hunters who will feel good about shooting birds on the ground or bunched up in a covey.  None of it's illegal it's just how they were raised that's all.  We're pretty lucky in this state as far as turkeys are concerned, I hope they always retain the status of a big game bird and are not looked at and hunted like big grouse.  Good luck to everyone and be safe and I hope once you get past the part about filling your tags you take a little time and look at the history and the long tradition of this great bird and the long hunting heritage behind it.

[fishunt247]

Travis, I guess we differ in some aspects, which is fine. I don't set up right under the roost tree at dawn, partly because where I hunt the birds don't roost in the same tree daily and partly because it is too thick/noisy/crunch to get that close. 100 yards is about as close as I'll get. Also, they don't go the same way everyday. I've had the fortune to hunt the same bird/birds on numerous days and witnessed them going every which way with no set pattern. But if they did hold the same patterns and roost in the same tree, I guess it removes the challenge of calling a gobbler to me is all. It also seems like an ambush, and just I just wouldn't feel right with myself for doing it. Granted, like you said it would be woodsmanship knowing where the turkeys go, but to me hunting them is so much more than woodsmanship.

Also, these birds don't frequent fields. They aren't like the birds in the northeast that hang out in fields. While there are fields there, they don't seem to concern themselves with even showing up in those fields. Even if I know a spot that I've seen birds in or know they frequent, I don't set up there and call blind. I run and gun, find an active gobbler, and work him. Now that I think about it, maybe its not really unethical to do so (only maybe in the sense of a food plot), I guess for me it would just be a little boring.

As with any ethical question, to each his own and I don't want to act like I'm attacking anybody. I hope nobody thinks I'm a "fly fishing only" type purist  , I just know what I'm want and desire to do.

[Phantom Gobbler]

I also feel that the harvesting of a Jake in no way diminishes from the thrill of the spring turkey hunt.  Many consider taking a Jake to be a trophy in it's own right when using 100% fair chase.  I respect an individual's personal preferences and if he sets the bar at a mature gobbler, or a 6 point bull elk, I can understand the rationale.  However, the magic of turkey hunting is venturing into the awakening spring woods and accepting the challenges (and frustrations) of attempting to lure within shotgun or bow range a legal bird, in an ethical and safe manner, while repecting the rights and preferences of our fellow sportsmen.

I have been lucky enough to have harvested both Jakes and Toms in Washington State and each one has provided a unique and treasured memory.  

[Intruder]

My remarks will probably just prove your main point, that the "tradition" of respectable turkey hunting strategies is being lost on new generations in the sport.  However, I have never understood this mentality, that the only way to respectfully harvest a gobbler is by calling one in.  I've called in plenty of bull elk, and I've stalked plenty of bull elk, and I get a similar thrill from both strategies.

It's really an apples to oranges comparison. I too have killed elk by stalking and by calling but it is a whole differenct ball game than turkey hunting.  Again as others have pointed out.... the main reason stalking on turkeys is frowned upon due to the danger involved as well as how often you end up messing other hunters up.  I don't personally like to ambush turkeys but I'm not "against" people doing it.  I am strongly opposed to people stalking turkeys though... too many instances of these things going wrong.

[turkey slayer]

I have hunted turkeys in washington for 13 years and havested 18 birds during the spring hunt. I have no problem shooting a jake. If it comes in to a call then it's a dead bird. I have shoot 6 or 7 jakes and the rest have been Toms.

I am against stalking turkey that is how people get hurt and killed.

The ambushing part can be sticky. The only way that I will ambush a turkey is if I have scouted and know there patterns (feeding area and watering holes). I mostly hunt on Private property so it is easier to pattern bird then state land. Don't get me wrong I have call 95% of my bird in, but if they are really hened up and you no the patterns then you it if they wont come into a call.

When I hunt roost area I stay 80 to 100 yard away from the Trees that they are in. I do not hunt bird late at night I just scout them and roost them. I think when hunting a roosting area at night you can push bird out of the area then hunting them there in the morning. I have shot 50% of my bird an hour into the day and the rest have been 10:00 to 4:00. The bird that I have gotten around roost tree in the mornings have always came back at night.

This is just my 

[300rum]

One of the funnest hunts and most challenging hunts I have ever been on was when I was drawn for a fall any turkey tag a few years ago and used a bow.  I had two shots and missed both on stalks and at one point stalked to 3 yards, in stocking feet, to a half a dozen birds and was at full draw but couldn't get a shot because of the brush.  I have hunted with a shotgun but won't do it again, it just isn't sporting enough and I would rather go after them instead of the other way around.

[fishunt247]

300, have you tried hunting them in the spring? It's a whole new ballgame. In the fall they are like grouse. Getting one to come to your call in the spring is far more challenging than stalking one in a fall with a bow

[Machias]

I no longer hunt them in the fall and haven't for a few years, they really are too easy, the hardest part is getting close enough to break them up.  I might try it though this fall with my new Sapphire Hawk Longbow, that would be a hoot!!

[@RCHER]

Every person's book of ethics reads differently than the rest. Every situation is different than every other. We all have personal likes and dislikes and tend to gather with those who share similar paths in life. Not much you can do about those things that don't go your way. Doesn't keep some of us from trying to make others see the world through our eyes. It's what keeps these community forum sites in business.

Keep in mind it's also one of the key reason most people don't visit sites like this.

[300rum]

I will try to sneak up and shoot just about anything with a bow, chickens, grouse, turkey, marauding sage rats and it really doesn't matter to me what time of the year.  The reason I don't particularly want to be out there right now doing it is that there are a few guys with guns trying to do the same thing.  Maybe we should have an archery only spring turkey hunt.    

300, have you tried hunting them in the spring? It's a whole new ballgame. In the fall they are like grouse. Getting one to come to your call in the spring is far more challenging than stalking one in a fall with a bow

[Tom Tamer]

Fishhunt I don't think we differ too much, I understand and also want to call in any bird that I hunt, but sometimes it takes some different tact, I also recall one hunt where we sat up in an area they use to flock up in the morning, well they already got past us and the tom gave me the" I hear you, I'm heading downthis way, but I'll be back" Gobble. SO about two hours later a hen lead him back but around behind, I knew they where heading to an opening behind us. So I belly crawled over to the edge of the clearing.....the only mistake I made was I didn't quit calling. The henwalked past but the tom didn't follow. I got impatient and kept calling, well the hen did a 180 went back to the tom and drug him off.

 Again I don't go out looking to " Stalk" or ambush in the manner it is meant here. But I will use what I can to get close for the shot as far as again woodsmanship is concerned.
  And when speaking of sitting under the roost tree, I meant it to come out just the way you and most described....as close as possible..... But I understand like you that most these birds, don't have a specific roost tree quite like they may back East. Even the Easterns I hunt can roost anywhere within a square mile on any given day. I don't begrudge anyone for setting self imposed rules to their own hunt, that's the beauty of this Country( allthough it threatened now) but our freedom of choice. As long as it's legal and doesn't infringe on others go for it.

 Machias I agree with you lot more than our discussion may show I too hope that this bird that is finally living in our State is as revered as much as anything else someday. I love every aspect of Turkeys and the hunting behind them. As I tell most at our NWTF or other functions the folks that started the modern day flocks here an us today our pioneering this sport, so lets do everything we can to make it as great as it is in Alabama or Penn.

 SO I try and use books and periodicals like Turkey&turkeyhunting mag to read up on the steeped tradition and how those folks back east hunt them to see how it's done elsewhere. I know there are those here that hunt them as junk birds and I have been asked, why I'd want to hunt them like we do in the spring when it's much easier to just run out and shoot one. Well I tell them that they haven't experienced the true way to hunt them. Mu first in '00 was a Jake I just happened upon. It was the first time in four years of hunting I got into gun range.....while it was satisfying to finally get one I still had an empty feeling about it. The very next year I finally got what I call a ' Will Primos" Hunt....ya know like the videos......call....gobble...call...gobble gobble gobble...h cam in strutted gave me the full show.....BOOM! after that I was totally hooked

 I can't wait til my Son an Daughter get to the hunting age so I can pass this on

[Machias]

Fishhunt I don't think we differ too much, I understand and also want to call in any bird that I hunt, but sometimes it takes some different tact, I also recall one hunt where we sat up in an area they use to flock up in the morning, well they already got past us and the tom gave me the" I hear you, I'm heading downthis way, but I'll be back" Gobble. SO about two hours later a hen lead him back but around behind, I knew they where heading to an opening behind us. So I belly crawled over to the edge of the clearing.....the only mistake I made was I didn't quit calling. The henwalked past but the tom didn't follow. I got impatient and kept calling, well the hen did a 180 went back to the tom and drug him off.

 Again I don't go out looking to " Stalk" or ambush in the manner it is meant here. But I will use what I can to get close for the shot as far as again woodsmanship is concerned.
  And when speaking of sitting under the roost tree, I meant it to come out just the way you and most described....as close as possible..... But I understand like you that most these birds, don't have a specific roost tree quite like they may back East. Even the Easterns I hunt can roost anywhere within a square mile on any given day. I don't begrudge anyone for setting self imposed rules to their own hunt, that's the beauty of this Country( allthough it threatened now) but our freedom of choice. As long as it's legal and doesn't infringe on others go for it.

 Machias I agree with you lot more than our discussion may show I too hope that this bird that is finally living in our State is as revered as much as anything else someday. I love every aspect of Turkeys and the hunting behind them. As I tell most at our NWTF or other functions the folks that started the modern day flocks here an us today our pioneering this sport, so lets do everything we can to make it as great as it is in Alabama or Penn.

 SO I try and use books and periodicals like Turkey&turkeyhunting mag to read up on the steeped tradition and how those folks back east hunt them to see how it's done elsewhere. I know there are those here that hunt them as junk birds and I have been asked, why I'd want to hunt them like we do in the spring when it's much easier to just run out and shoot one. Well I tell them that they haven't experienced the true way to hunt them. Mu first in '00 was a Jake I just happened upon. It was the first time in four years of hunting I got into gun range.....while it was satisfying to finally get one I still had an empty feeling about it. The very next year I finally got what I call a ' Will Primos" Hunt....ya know like the videos......call....gobble...call...gobble gobble gobble...h cam in strutted gave me the full show.....BOOM! after that I was totally hooked

 I can't wait til my Son an Daughter get to the hunting age so I can pass this on

 

[Pathfinder101]

Good topic Machias.  You are right, it is a question of tradition.  While I wouldn't dream of sluicing ducks or pheasants, I never considered that there was anything unethical about stalking turkeys.  Like you said, we didn't grow up hunting them here (there were very few turkeys in Eastern WA when I was a kid growing up in the 80's.  No one I knew hunted them).  It will be the guys learning and perfecting the sport now that pass these traditions and eithics down to their kids.
Great thread.

[Wacenturion]

A lot of good comments here.  Basically turkey hunting, or any form of hunting for that matter is a case of ethics...different approaches for different critters.  The stalking elk comparison earlier is not similar to stalking turkeys, as one is wearing blaze orange for safety vs. the absence of blaze to be fully concealed.  Safety is the paramount issue in turkey hunting.....more so than other hunting activities.

Part of the unethical turkey hunting by some came about due to the regulations of the WDFW.  Specifically the free tags of a few years ago.  Up until that point you could purchase one tag for each of the three subspecies in Washington.  Kill one and move on.  Turkey hunters were viewed as a non issue by landowners.  They were viewed as a good risk lets say to allow access to. 

Then come the "free taggers".  "Hey Bob, we got a free turkey tag with our small game license....what the heck....lets give it a go."  Well a lot of the free taggers drove around, saw turkeys, and tried to shoot them from the roads.  Worse yet...they stalked any turkey sound.....I'm sure many here have had that experience....I have.  Now the image of turkey hunting and turkey hunters began to change in the eyes of some landowners.  I guess when you increase the number of apples in the barrel, you're eventually going to get bad ones.  Unfortunately, WDFW artificially filled the barrel early.

Then came the combination of two bird spring limits and then the regulation allowing those two bird limits to be taken on the same day, coupled with fall either sex season...then worse...the fall multi bird seasons...all designed to alleviate "nuisance" problems, which in actuality are far fewer than WDFW would have you believe.  In the 90's a Dept. program would trap and relocate birds...everyone happy.  Birds going into new areas to expand opportunity.  That didn't last as powers to be within WDFW wanted to hamstring the program.....that a fact. No you have what I refer to as a toilet backing up in the NE.  Pissed off landowners...no so much because of the turkeys, but because of the lack of help from the agency.

So again....WDFW has artificially created another form of unethical hunter training.  A couple new hunters or old sitting and calling an in on a string runs five or six jakes and boom batter batter, boom batter batter, boom batter batter boom!  Got a couple and probably wounded a couple.  What the hell....doesn't matter.....success and bragging rights back in camp.  Stalking and shooting multiple times...i.e. flock shooting in the fall...same result.  Worse yet....ambushing the flock and killing those lead hens...you know the successful nesters....the ones that bring you that great spring sport we all love in the form of new birds. 

Now while all of us can disassociate from the above...it happens a bunch!  It will eventually take it toll on turkey populations and also on the ethical side of the sport.  Nothing at all wrong with fall seasons if they provide opportunity without risk to the resource.  Personally I prefer the same as spring.....gobbler or turkey with visible beard only in the fall....with only one bird per day.  Still provides all the opportunity without risks.  It trains people to carefully select their target....and not train them to flock shoot and potentially cripple birds.

Success in our fine state at one point was taking a gobbler in the spring, a huge accomplishment, something to be proud of, regardless of technique.  The ultimate success was a "Washington Slam"...getting all three subspecies either in a single season or multiple seasons.  Now success has evolved to a numbers game within a specific area...i.e. NE, SE, etc....bought two tags, but only got one....don't feel as successful.  Oh well...got the fall season to fill the other tags.  Again...a false ethic promoted to us by WDFW.  I have always felt as an agency responsible for selling licenses and regulating opportunity, their biggest responsibility was doing so in a way to promote or foster or train individuals to do it right.  They on the other hand have done the opposite as of late.  It's almost like anything they can do to make turkeys and turkey hunting look bad.  My read anyway for what it's worth.

In response to shooting a jake, I feel any bird that plays the game the right way, and someone calls that bird in, is a trophy.  At the point of contact it becomes a personal choice to either take it or pass.  I had the opportunity to take Rob Keck after his Washington bird.  Rob as many of you know was the former CEO of the NWTF.  One of his turkey goals was to harvest a legal bird in every state that had turkeys...49 to be exact.  He has since accomplished that feat since I took him in the 90's.  The key word here being "legal".  Many of those birds were jakes.....including his Washington bird.  I don't believe the mix of adult or juvenile gobblers make that feast any less successful.  I know in his eyes....any gobbler taken the right way is a trophy bird.  In this case his point of contact choice was more a logistical one I'm sure, as the time he had was critical.;

Anyway great thread....great comments.....always pass on the right ethics when the opportunty presents itself...               

     

[Machias]

Great post Wacenturion.

[turkeydancer]

Well said WaCent ... sorry I missed you guys at your camp, but understand vehicle problems. My truck blew a hose Sat morning on the way home and I got to camp out for 2+ days at the dealer in Ellensberg ... no weekend mechanic and couldn't get the one of a kind hose until Monday @ 2pm anyway.  PM me on your hunt .. nice you are back on the mountain!

[Wacenturion]

Well said WaCent ... sorry I missed you guys at your camp, but understand vehicle problems. My truck blew a hose Sat morning on the way home and I got to camp out for 2+ days at the dealer in Ellensberg ... no weekend mechanic and couldn't get the one of a kind hose until Monday @ 2pm anyway.  PM me on your hunt .. nice you are back on the mountain!

That sucks......have to cut your trip short and then you get stuck in the "windy" city.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

 I am trying to get an eastern with a recurve, I will stick the first legal bird I can and see nothing unethical about it. If I can sneak up on one close enough to get a Pearson Deadhead on a cedar arrow from my 1964 Kodiak into a gobbler I will. But I expect to do it out of my ground blind over dekes. As far as traditions, If I can get my kids and friends involved in turkey hunting, we will start our own traditions.

[Tom Tamer]

See and as you all have pointed out about the fall season is one of the reasons I have yet to ever go, I want to expereince a true fall hunt, locat, scatter and call back in. But most everyone in this statee just " Grouses" them in the fall. Now that's fine for grouse, maybe due to our traditional way of hunting grouse but I don't find it that exciting for turkey.....especially after you experience and true spring hunt

Wacent..I totally agree with you on the WDFW as you know It took me awhile to see through some of their crap, one just has to look at the web site right now. In the midst of our season there isn't one mention or picture of turkeys

[fishunt247]

Agreed on the fall hunt. No thanks. Doing it the "traditional" Eastern US way sounds like it could be decently fun, but hunting them like grouse would bore me to death.

[turkeydancer]

TT - You're getting as cranky as me, but I sure don't disagree with the WDFW assessments. I have been fall hunting the last two years ... different for sure, but can still be a challenge.  Its great to just get out and see a lot of birds and listen to all the keekees, hen chatter, and gobbling.  Don't really care about a harvest but it does beat staying home and watching football !  Fun to keekee and watch all of them get excited and come in to help poor old (or is that young) little me.  Fun to watch all the jakes mock fighting.  Fun when 300+ birds come to within inches of the blind and try looking inside, then start launching over the blind. I guess what I am trying to say  is its what you make of it. If someone is only wanting a grouse hunt, then that's what they'll have.  Me, I wanted a more traditional fall hunt with the scatter. Dn't always scatter them, but also have called (keekeeruns and hen assemblies) a lot ... just a different type calling than the spring hunt.   

[Tom Tamer]

TD I do agree with you on the way you fall hunt, and I would like it too especailly after all the years of hearing about your fall hunts. Yes that would be afun hunt no doubt but so many just go out a sloose them.... One of these days you and I are going to have to go, although I'm not trying to impose on your honey holes, but we never have hunted together. Just a thought.


 Yes I am getting cranky I'm still working that turkey foot free from my rear end after the last couple weekends

[turkeydancer]

I'll talk with my son about adding you with us this early fall.