Labs and finding lost ducks

[Stein]

The primary reason I have a hunting lab is to turn up ducks that would probably be lost if I didn't have a dog.  The ones that swim off, crawl away into brush or are simply buried in some nasty undergrowth dead.

She is OK, but she works kind of the same way a Roomba vacuum does - eventually she will come across a scent if she runs around randomly long enough.  It probably works 60-70% of the time, maybe less on some days.  Those are lost ducks, ones that I can't find and have only a general idea where they landed.

I figured I would do a few training sessions in the back yard and it became crystal clear this is what she does.  I rubbed a dead duck on the grass, pulled a few feathers and put them there and then drug it on a simple path to a place she couldn't see it.  I brought her out, showed here the feathers, tell her to fetch it up and she sniffs and then follows the trail for about 3' before veering off on the Roomba course and eventually ends up downwind of the duck, catches the scent and finds it.

I did this several times thinking maybe she would figure out the tracking thing.  I encouraged her along the trail, brought her back when she got too far off and it's always the same show.  Zero interest in following the trail, perfectly happy to run around sniffing everything.

So, now the dumb question.  I know that labs aren't bloodhounds, is this how they find something by scent or should I keep working on getting her to follow the trail?  If the latter, any books/videos/websites I should look into?

[pianoman9701]

I was lucky enough to participate in the training of what turned out to be a great bird dog yellow lab. I can't remember if he used Water Dog or a combination of techniques. But his hand signals and whistle blasts were the key, especially on long retrieves. He trained the dog to turn around on the single blast and wait for a directional hand signal. The dog would literally tread water in a Columbia channel waiting for the direction. Once he gave the signal the dog would beeline in that direction until redirected. Nicky did have a great nose, but he made impossibly retrieves because of his training on directional signals.

[WSU]

My lab can definitely track.  I've watched him track a wounded goose for 500 or 600 yards and come back with it after he tracks it out of my sight.  He didn't start out doing this but learned it after time on birds.  We lose very, very few birds (way north 90% recovered). 

I'd like to take credit, but I didn't train him to do it.  Guess it's better to be lucky than good.

[kselkhunter]

Stein - my lab was similar scenario on ability to track as what you are reporting.  He was also blind retrieve trained with hand and whistle controls, but if I didn't see where the bird went down very well then it got challenging.   When pheasant hunting he could track birds at distance but when it got to closer to the bird he had to practically trip over the bird (he was taught the quartering technique, not a pointing lab).   His nose just isn't as strong as other breeds.   


I pull out my GSP who loves waterfowl hunting.   He's a much better tracker.....and really strong swimmer for a GSP.   But waterfowl hunting is harder on the GSP for the later season due to lack of thick enough coat so he stays in the truck during late  season water hunts except short stints or if the dumb blonde lab has trouble finding a down bird.


When I took them pheasant hunting I'd take the lab out first, as he's bigger and tires more quickly.  Then I'd go back over the area with the GSP to clean up the birds the lab missed.   The GSP is a scent seeking missile.

[SuperX]

yes this quartering and playing the wind is how labs find stuff.   

I thought this thread would be about finding ducks you didn't shoot!  My boy had a couple bands to his name

[Badhabit]

My lab loves milk bones, goes ape ship over them. I let her smell that I have one or two and get her in the blind and then break them into 2" chunks and toss them randomly around and at different distances. Get her out fo the blind give her a mark to one and then watch as she methodicaly works the wind to find each one. She has figured out when I give her a mark she knows she's going to "hunt something up." Ever have a dog yip at you when you miss the shot and she doesn't get to hunt something up?

[Stein]

yes this quartering and playing the wind is how labs find stuff.   

I thought this thread would be about finding ducks you didn't shoot!  My boy had a couple bands to his name

Yeah, she has brought a few cold stiff ones back as well.  A couple years ago she brought one in that I didn't even know I hit.  I shot, missed and watched it fly away.  She sat there and whined for 15 minutes and then I decided we should go out for a walk seeing if I could flush anything from the property.  As soon as I stepped foot outside the blind, she shot out about 75 yards and came running back with a dead mallard like she was on rails.  I figured it was a cold one but it was super warm and obviously just killed.  I still can't believe that one, I would have bet you $1,000 that one flew away as I watched it happen.

Sounds like one thing I could do better is get her downwind of where the duck hit ground instead of just going straight there.

[Smokepole]

It's the handler's job to put the lab down wind from the scene of the crime.  After that she'll walk right up to the bird.  At least that's how me and my pup do it best.   

[Stein]

Great, my fault?     Next thing you are going to tell me is that it isn't my shells that suck or gun aiming off that explains all the misses.

Thanks for the insight everyone, we'll see if we can put it to good use.

[rainshadow1]

The dog seems to have learned to rely on the wind and run the scent cone. Just needs to include you in the procedure! Keep at your scent trail training with blind retrieves... (doesn't have to be a duck, or even meat, can be a tennis ball or anything else the dog is excited about.)

Blind is the key. From watching it fall into an area it can't see, to leaving her inside the house in the kennel until you've hidden the object. Incorporate your commands and signals at the same time. When the dog finds the item in the exact spot you told her to, she'll have the "ah-ha" moment!

(You could even start with simply covering her eyes while you throw your dummy, then send her to it with the hand signal and voice command. She'll learn to trust your signals.)

The nose and your commands will eventually work in tandem. Don't get frustrated because they don't yet.

Sounds to me like you're well on your way. Just keep at it. Make it harder and harder. A few retrieves per day is all you need.

[Kola16]

Labs have great noses, but they need practice with REAL dead birds. You should always have some whole dead ducks in the freezer for training.

How old is the dog and is she force-fetched yet? Like rainshadow said she needs practice and A LOT of blind retrieves.

[Afraiman]

Any dog can learn to track. There are specific nose work classes you can take the pup to so that it learns as well as you. Basically it starts with hiding treats in and around things in a small area and the dog goes to find it via smell (don't let it watch you hide the treat). Once it learns the game, hide a scent (dead ducks, antler shed, your keys) with the cookie. When the dog becomes highly successful at this, remove the treat and leave the scent. Follow the dog around until it finds the source of the scent, reward with the treat so it associates finding the scent with reward. As the dog becomes better at finding, you can expand the area, train a sit at the sent or a point or whatever behavior you desire.
the key is the make sure that they aren't picking up indications from the handler (watching you place it, see you staring at it, standing next to it)

Sometimes the dog will wander, go in circles, stand there with their nose in the air day dreaming. The owner has to remember that the dogs sense of smell is several thousand times better then ours, they have to pick duck scent out of the smell of grass, water, mud, dirt, the ducks from last week, the other dogs that were in the area yesterday etc... Scent follows air current, which swirl and change direction, so until the dog is very close, it usually wont B line for the scent.
the more training and experience, the better the dog will get and learning to use the their nose.

[h2ofowlr]

When my lab was a puppy I would throw dead birds in tall grass and have him sniff them out.  We played this game weekly and he loved it.  I even do it in the off season with him with wings tied to a bumper.  He loves doing it and never misses one.  In doing so, he finds 99% of all birds that go into deep grass, stickers or brush.  The ones he looses some times are the ones that dive and grab to the bottom.  If it's shallow enough and he sees where they dive, he has trained himself to rake the bottom with his paws trying to kick it up.  If a bird hit the ground, he almost never looses it.

[rainshadow1]

When my lab was a puppy I would throw dead birds in tall grass and have him sniff them out.  We played this game weekly and he loved it.  I even do it in the off season with him with wings tied to a bumper.  He loves doing it and never misses one.  In doing so, he finds 99% of all birds that go into deep grass, stickers or brush.  The ones he looses some times are the ones that dive and grab to the bottom.  If it's shallow enough and he sees where they dive, he has trained himself to rake the bottom with his paws trying to kick it up.  If a bird hit the ground, he almost never looses it.

Best dog I ever had, lucky happenstance, when she was a year and a half old or so, I found a hawk killed mallard down at the river on a hot summer day. I made her sit on the bank, waded out into a pool chest deep, and "Fwap" flopped it on the water, and enthusiastically yelled "FETCH!!!" She launched off the bank. When she got a foot or two from it I pulled it underwater as far as I could. She dove right after it. Did that 5 or 6 times that session. She was a diving expert after that. Went right underwater after a fleeing cripples! Several times during her hunting career I saw her come back to the surface with the duck flapping and kicking and her blowing water out of her nose... she was a machine!

[vandeman17]

My current labs and ones in the past all did the zig zag when trying to find cripples in the brush or reeds. I think a large part to the equation is the dog's drive to hunt and find birds. Luckily, I have had dogs with good drive and they do a good job finding almost all downed birds. If they are in there for longer than a minute or two, I usually give them a little motivation by cheering them on, clapping etc to keep them excited and wanting to hunt. 

[Bookworm007]

A lot of performance is probably dog specific, some just have more natural instinct when it comes to tracking and searching out cripple ducks. I got lucky that my dog has a great nose and almost always finds crippled birds, she has found cripples left from previous hunters even! To help teach the skill you can do the "hunt'em up drill". Take the dogs bumper or even better a wing or intact duck and hide it in some brush, but don't let the dog see where you have hidden it. Next take the dog in the area where you know the mark is, point into the area and command "hunt'em up!" Pretty soon your dog will better learn how to seek out hidden birds. Also make sure the dog has a good line of sight in the blind, long retrieves when the dog didn't see the bird drop are quite difficult even for highly trained dogs.

[Stein]

Thanks, I'll keep at it.  Unfortunately I just whacked a monster amount of blackberry so the ungroomed part of my yard is not dog safe and our normal training ground is under construction for some new whatever.

Fortunately I do have plenty of duck parts in the freezer.