Wolves eating all our deer

[WDFW-SUX]

Only one way out and it involves digging a bunch of holes real quick.

[Kain]

Regardless of whether they were planted or not, we have a problem, and we are stuck with it. I think that what bothers some of us the most is being lied to, or not having anything to say about the future of our game and wildlife. When and if the real trueth comes down the pike, it won't matter one whit, we will still be stuck with the wolves. Its what we do today and tomarrow that may have some kind of impact on our situation. So here's an idea, lets all drop the subject on who done what to who, and try an figure away out of this. I'm sure there are plenty who have some ideas! How bout it?

Read this.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/diversty/soc/gray_wolf/conservation_plan.pdf

 

  Find what is good and what is not.  Go to the meetings and make the emails and phone calls.  I would recommend using as many facts and sources for your arguments as you can.  Try not to be so doom and gloom because that will only diminish any valid points you have.  You can have passion but try not to be chicken littles.  Pictures, videos and first hand statements that have actually been investigated will be gold for your side.  They are not going to kill all the wolves so dont ask them to and they are not going to look the other way if you do it.  


Contacts
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/diversty/soc/gray_wolf/members.htm

[boneaddict]

I suspect the agencies will be a bit more careful about who knows what

In his own words.......

Makes it kind of hard to know the truth don't you think.  

Schwan van has govt. plates, at least the one with all of the antenaes attached to it.

[ratherhunt]

Wow, this is a really interesting thread. Thanks

[wolfbait]

I was talking to a buddy of mine up Montana way last night and he told me that all the states that they have release these critters in, the people have fought it tooth n nail, lawyers n you name it. Never even slowed em down. But yer right, you gotta take the highroad. We came down to the lodgic that these wolves will have to git to the point where people are their main food supply before things change, or the wolves kill some one who is fairly popular.

I know for a fact that the SF, and the rest that saw the cow also saw the cow had been pulled down by wolves, I also know their was one guy there that didn't want to lie about it, but one guy amongst the wolves, doesn't have much of a chance. When they lie to us,  I think thats what really makes me mad. But they been doin it for along time now in other places, its just our turn.  I sure hate to see all our deer killed off, I'm going to miss the big bucks that come into the hay stacks in the winter, and I will really miss horn huntin. Year before last we fed over 60 head, last year we hardly saw any. Around November we had 5 nice bucks in here one day, never saw em agin. Friend of mine sent me this dvd and it shows plenty about our new wolves. Well worth the money.

http://www.prosts.com/Documentary-Undue-Burden.htm



While a government report has found no conclusive evidence that wolves were involved in the death of a Methow Valley cow last month, the rancher who owned the animal is certain that his new canine neighbors are responsible.

Preliminary results of an investigation into the cause of the cow’s death near the home range of Washington state’s first confirmed wolf pack in 70 years said the carcass was too old and scavenged to determine the cause of death. Investigators said the cow was dead too many days to determine what caused its death.

The rancher said he saw a wolf twice near the spot where the cow died, and the cow wasn’t the first livestock he believes he has lost to wolves.

Investigators could not find any obvious signs of what killed the cow, and the hide had no puncture wounds or claw marks, according to Tom Buckley, spokesperson for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. There were no signs of a struggle that would indicate a predator such as a cougar, bear or wolf caused the death, he reported Friday (May 29). 

http://www.methowvalleynews.com/story.php?id=1520

[boneaddict]

no surprise.... No punture wounds or claw marks, yet too scavenged.  Kind of conflicting....

I didn't understand what you said.  Someone saw this cow being pulled down........?

[boneaddict]

I sure hate to see all our deer killed off, I'm going to miss the big bucks that come into the hay stacks in the winter, and I will really miss horn huntin. Year before last we fed over 60 head, last year we hardly saw any. Around November we had 5 nice bucks in here one day, never saw em agin.

This is what is really bothering me.  I can't believe how bad it is compared to what it has been.  I've seen population swings before with bad winters and stuff like that, but have never seen the population the way it is.  Couple that with other life experiences with wolves and the hatred runs deep.  I wish/hope I am wrong. 

[wolfbait]

I wish/hope I am wrong.   We all wish the same thing!

 WOLF IMPACTS

Wolf impacts underestimated

According to the Wyoming Game and Fish Department, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service grossly underestimated the impact of a reintroduced population of wolves.

• The wolf population in the Greater Yellowstone area in 2005 was at least 3.3 times the original environmental impact statement prediction for a recovered population.
• The number of breeding pairs of wolves in the GYA in 2005 was at least twice as high as the original EIS prediction and the number of breeding pairs in 2004 was at least 3.1 times the original EIS prediction.
• In 2005, the wolf population in Wyoming outside Yellowstone National Park exceeded the recovery criteria for the entire region and continues to increase rapidly.
• The estimated annual predation rate (22 ungulates per wolf) is 1.8 times the annual predation rate (12 ungulates per wolf) predicted in the EIS.
• The estimated number of ungulates taken by 325 wolves in a year (7,150) is six times higher than the original EIS prediction.
• The percent of the northern Yellowstone elk harvest during the 1980s currently taken by wolves (50 percent) is 6.3 times the original estimate of eight percent projected in the EIS.
• The actual decline in the northern Yellowstone elk herd (more than 50 percent) is 1.7 times the maximum decline originally forecast in the EIS.
• The actual decline in cow harvest in the northern Yellowstone elk herd (89 percent) is 3.3 times the decline originally forecast in the EIS.
• The actual decline in bull harvest in the northern Yellowstone elk herd is 75 percent, whereas the 1994 EIS predicted bull harvests would be “unaffected.��
• Since wolf introduction, average ratios of calf elk to cow elk have been greatly \depressed in the northern Yellowstone elk herd and in the Wyoming elk herds impacted by wolves. In the northern Yellowstone elk herd and in the Sunlight unit of the Clarks Fork herd, calf:cow rations have been suppressed to unprecedented levels below 15 calves per 100. The impact of wolves on calf recruitment was not addressed by the 1994 EIS.

WG&F stated: “Despite research findings in Idaho and the Greater Yellowstone Area, and monitoring evidence in Wyoming that indicate wolf predation is having an impact on ungulate populations that will reduce hunter opportunity if the current impact levels persist, the Service continues to rigidly deny wolf predation is a problem.��

The 1994 EIS predicted that presence of wolves would result in a 5-10 percent increase in annual visitation to Yellowstone National Park. On this basis, the EIS forecast wolves in the region would generate $20 million in revenue to the states of Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. WG&F reports that annual park visitation remained essentially unchanged after wolf introduction, and has decreased 2.6 percent since the wolf population reached recovery goals in 2000.

“ Since park visitation did not increase as originally forecast, the Service cannot legitimately conclude presence of wolves has had any appreciable effect on net tourism revenues,��  WG&F stated.

WG&F stated: “Wolf presence can be ecologically compatible in the GYA only to the extent that the distribution and numbers of wolves are controlled and maintained at approximately the levels originally predicted by the 1994 EIS –100 wolves and 10 breeding pairs.��  WG&F maintained that FWS “has a permanent, legal obligation to manage wolves at the levels on which the wolf recovery program was originally predicated, the levels descri


http://www.pinedaleonline.com/wolf/wolfimpacts.htm
 
 

 

[WDFW-SUX]

The 15 successful breeding pairs needed to achieve delisting should not be interpreted as a population “cap” at which the population will be limited. This plan does not attempt to set a limit on the numbers of wolves that will be allowed to live in Washington.

Welcome to the end of hunting in washington.

1. The gray wolf will be considered for downlisting from state endangered to threatened in Washington when 6 successful breeding pairs are present for 3 consecutive years, distributed as follows:
•
2 successful breeding pairs in the Northern Cascades Region, 8
•
2 successful breeding pairs in the Eastern Washington Region, and 9
•
2 successful breeding pairs in the Southern Cascades and Northwest Coast Region.
2. The gray wolf will be considered for downlisting from state threatened to sensitive in Washington when 12 successful breeding pairs are present for 3 consecutive years, distributed as follows:
•
2 successful breeding pairs in the Northern Cascades Region,
•
2 successful breeding pairs in the Eastern Washington Region,
•
5 successful breeding pairs in the Southern Cascades and Northwest Coast Region, and
•
3 successful breeding pairs anywhere in the state.
3. The gray wolf will be considered for delisting from state sensitive to game animal status in Washington when 15 successful breeding pairs are present for 3 consecutive years, distributed as follows:
•
2 successful breeding pairs in the Northern Cascades,
•
2 successful breeding pairs in the Eastern Washington Region,
•
5 successful breeding pairs in the Southern Cascades and Northwest Coast Region, and
•
6 successful breeding pairs anywhere in the state.

[wolfbait]

no surprise.... No punture wounds or claw marks, yet too scavenged.  Kind of conflicting....

I didn't understand what you said.  Someone saw this cow being pulled down........?

 

One of the people who investigated the cow said that they could definately tell that something had a hold of the cow by the nose, and the hindquarters was what was mostly ate. The ranch hand that takes care of the place when the owner isn't there heard the wolves in the AM hours of the morning and saw the wolves the next moenin on the cow. The owner planed on taking care of things on his own, but got talk out of it, that is how the wsgd happen to git involved.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Regardless of whether they were planted or not, we have a problem, and we are stuck with it. I think that what bothers some of us the most is being lied to, or not having anything to say about the future of our game and wildlife. When and if the real trueth comes down the pike, it won't matter one whit, we will still be stuck with the wolves. Its what we do today and tomarrow that may have some kind of impact on our situation. So here's an idea, lets all drop the subject on who done what to who, and try an figure away out of this. I'm sure there are plenty who have some ideas! How bout it?

Good Idea Wolfbait- Here's one solution.  Hunters and others interested in maintaining adequate prey populations work together with the managing agencies and try to help them understand the range/population/and prey availablity for wolves in Washington.  At the same time we all have to understand that wolves in washington are here to stay.  We have to deal with them one way or another.  Meanwhile, we work towards delisting.  We have to document the breeding animals, the reproduction success, and the locations of packs in the state.  Take pictures of animals, tracks, collect scat...whatever...  Once we have met the goals outlined under the WA wolf management plan they can delist and control (hunting?) can begin.  The longer this takes the more wolves we will have in certain populations across WA. (ie. methow/NE)  

So, in the meantime we can do a few other things(things we should try to do anyway!)- one improve range conditions so winter kill is not so severe.  Spray weeds and manage pastures to increase the carrying capacity of our lands. Maybe push the WDFW to cut doe tags.  

[WAcoyotehunter]

I suspect the agencies will be a bit more careful about who knows what

In his own words.......

Makes it kind of hard to know the truth don't you think. 

Schwan van has govt. plates, at least the one with all of the antenaes attached to it.

It does make it hard.  I think we are/were getting the truth before the White's moved ahead with their grand scheme.  LikeI said before- the agencies job and the jobs of the bios involved (and federal law) require recovery.  I don't blame them for clamming up when the yocals start killing endangered species. 

[wolfbait]

The numbers that they throw out there for delisting don't mean sh-t, as the wolf-people will just sue over and over agin and keep them on the endangered list as long as they can, and I don't think our govner cares one whit about the wildlife. There is a ton of money behind this wolf horsesh-t and everyone wants their cut.

[WAcoyotehunter]

I mean come on...the bax was leaking blood
                              (Box)

There again that is what you heard from the media!!!!! Give me a break, these people are not slow people, they are damn quick thinkers. Bottom Line, No blood leaking from BOX.
  
                                                  

You're not really correcting my typo...you're kidding right?  

How did they get caught if the box wasn't leaking blood?  

Quite frankly i don't think wacoyotehunter is a fan of the wolves. i think he is of the mind that he would love to see proof of all the talk on here, thats all.

I don't think a lot of people realize the difficulty in hunters managing wolf populations.

Thanks Jackelope- You're right on the money.  Like I've been saying, show me some sort of evidence.  All these people saw a white van and all these people saw a cow being killed, not one has come forward and not one photo has been produced....

[FrankDown]

Every tim eI talk wiht anyone here in Washington about wolves I get the old emotional rhetoric.  Im not against wolves, Im against not managing them properly.  It looks like they arent being managed properly, and wont be managed properly in Washington.  What do you expect from people that let their pit bulls wander around a playground full of 2 and 3 year olds and get mad when you ask them to put the dog on a leash.  Why would a wolf be any different?

Its unfortunate that they agencies have had to spend so much money in court about this whole thing.  It just seems to me that the waterheads have backing and the others do not.  I am not sure why any other groups have not taken the matter to court about any predation on deer and elk or what impact they may have on any protected species.  It just seems to me that someone else would have taken the matter to court in defense of the other wildlife that is mismanaged and under populated.  Who is standing up for the reduced numbers of elk?  Who is responsible for managing the wolves when they put even more stress on the reduced herds?

My friend makes the argument that wolves were here before we were.  Perhaps the whites, but I have read that wolves were brought across the Bering Strait with the same people that are indigenous to North and South America now.  My argument is that if they cant manage the base populations of food like deer and elk, why introduce a predator that they can't manage properly?  We have destroyed the natural layoput of th eland.  We have pastures and houses and roads everywhere now.  He have altered the ecosystem beyond being able to restore it to pre settlement times.