Wolves eating all our deer

[wolfbait]

Folks there is good progress being made, 2 years ago the ID F&G would not have said half as much as they are saying now.

I agree with kain, F&G must operate on facts and show studies that can substantiate everything to the public and courts.

At the same time I totally agree with wolfbait, we need to spread the word and continue to be proactive about this issue.

There is more good material from more sources in this thread than I have ever seen in one place, let's keep it going for all to read.

Well alright then, take shell back out of barrel and go back to computer.

[Kain]

Well you may be right on all of that Kain. But here is an example of someone that actually saw 2 wolves go across the road in front of him just below the new wolf habitat. This guy not only took pictures of the wolves, which were as tame as housecats, but he reported his sightings to the proper people, and they turned it into an, I don't beleive him. People here in the valley, said there ya go. As far as I can see they still want to contend that there is just one little ol wolf pack here with a couple of pups. When in reality more people than I know have seen these wolves in more places to be just 6 er 7 wolves.  I really wish there was only 6 or 7, it would sure make things a hell of alot easier deciding just where to dig one big hole. I probably shouldn'y say things like that, but they brought these wolves into this country illigally, and I know 2 wrongs don't always make a right but I think this time it would.

I think that kind of backs up my argument.  Not enough people are reporting.  It is easy to discount one or two reports a year.  But if everyone that saw some tracks or saw a wolf reported it.  They would not be able to discount them all.  Could you imagine if it came up in court that there were hundreds of reported sightings and most of them were not checked or were written off as unreliable.  They would  be in big trouble if it became public that they were covering up wolf populations.  Make sure they dont have that option.

[wolfbait]

I think that kind of backs up my argument.  Not enough people are reporting.  It is easy to discount one or two reports a year.  But if everyone that saw some tracks or saw a wolf reported it.  They would not be able to discount them all.  Could you imagine if it came up in court that there were hundreds of reported sightings and most of them were not checked or were written off as unreliable.  They would  be in big trouble if it became public that they were covering up wolf populations.  Make sure they dont have that option.)

Good point Kain, I never thought of it in that light.

[WAcoyotehunter]

[
My question is, Please show us your proof that canadian wolves have not had the devastating impact in the areas of idaho that everyone (including local residents) say the elk and deer herds have been decimated, including many F&G employees.

Great question.

 Response??

I never said they're not having an effect, but I'm not so sure that the wolf effect on elk is a devastating as some might say. Aside from anecdotal evidence (which goes a long way if you are anti wolf  ) there are some studies showing that wolves are not eating themselves out of prey.  

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/wildlife/manage_issues/ung/elkupdate.cfm

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/releases/view.cfm?NewsID=3156  

Roadkill...malnutrition...lions... why isn't anyone screaming about that?

[bearpaw]

coyote, I can't quite read if you are just making constructive conversation or if you really love wolves. I guess it doesn't really matter.

Very good points..............that should be addressed.

Roadkill
Primarily a deer problem in most areas. I have not seen too many elk in DOT roadkill depositories. Has anyone else?

Malnutrition
F&G depts have pretty well answered this by stating that elk are below carrying capacity.

Lions
Dang I love hunting these critters. As I am sure you are aware with your close DOW connections, the lion populations have been greatly reduced in most areas of the west, including Idaho and E. Washington and for verying reasons. For some time Idaho F&G has offered extra lion and bear tags in central Idaho to reduce those populations. There is more lion and bear hunting occuring than ever before in Idaho and harvest data has indicated reduced populations in most areas.

These were good points, but as I think you probably know, they are really not valid arguments at this time.

I believe all the photos of wolf kills, F&G arial surveys, expanding wolf numbers, decreasing elk numbers, new attitudes of ID/MT F&G, etc. all indicates wolves are most likely the problem.

Can you argue that any evidence shows otherwise?

[Kain]

Roadkill, malnutrition and cats have always been there and populations would fluctuate but were mostly stable.  In a little over ten years "wolves have become the most important factor in predation on elk" (according to Idaho biologist Pete Zager).  What will they be like in another five?  All of these these issues need to be managed responsibly.  Wolves are the only ones that are not being managed at this time.

I am not calling for eradication of wolves in Washington, only responsible, proactive management.  That goes for any of these issues.

[sooperfly]

Well you may be right on all of that Kain. But here is an example of someone that actually saw 2 wolves go across the road in front of him just below the new wolf habitat. This guy not only took pictures of the wolves, which were as tame as housecats, but he reported his sightings to the proper people, and they turned it into an, I don't beleive him. People here in the valley, said there ya go.

Wolfbait - What are you basing this statement on ?  Can you clarify this please ?  Especially the "tame as housecats" comment ( sounds like you were there, or you have talked to the person directly ?? )  And how do you know the sightings were/were not reported to the proper people, and they "didn't believe him".  Help me out here.

[bearpaw]

I am not calling for eradication of wolves in Washington, only responsible, proactive management.  That goes for any of these issues.

Excellent Remark
I totally agree...............

[WAcoyotehunter]

coyote, I can't quite read if you are just making constructive conversation or if you really love wolves. I guess it doesn't really matter.

Very good points..............that should be addressed.

Roadkill
Primarily a deer problem in most areas. I have not seen too many elk in DOT roadkill depositories. Has anyone else?

Malnutrition
F&G depts have pretty well answered this by stating that elk are below carrying capacity.

These were good points, but as I think you probably know, they are really not valid arguments at this time.

I believe all the photos of wolf kills, F&G arial surveys, expanding wolf numbers, decreasing elk numbers, new attitudes of ID/MT F&G, etc. all indicates wolves are most likely the problem.

Can you argue that any evidence shows otherwise?

Someone asked me to show that elk #'s can sustain a wolf population, that is why I posted that data sheet. 

It's not that I love wolves at all, in fact I enjoy elk far more.   The roadkill data is important with regard to deer, not so much so for elk.  But it shows pretty clearly that cars and deer dont get along(or lions!)- wolves are not as big an impact as cars...I guess an obvious assumption (obvious to me) is that wolves are not eating all of our deer, as the post title indicates.  There are other factors at work and until wolves are managed, there are things we can do to support more deer/elk for hunters.

The data sheet shows that elk numbers are above or within population objectives in 8 of 11 units.  It looks like wolves are pounding them in the Lolo, but all in all there are still lots of elk in ID.

My point is that a managed population of wolves can coexist with deer/elk/people just fine.   I think we'll see more elk units above population goals when the wolves start being killed.

[WDFW-SUX]

I dont think wolves are manageable in washington state.  We have too many restrictions on the manner of take to be effective.  I think its a pipe dream to suggest that healthy deer and elk herds can coexist with wolves see what has happened in Idaho and Wyoming if you need evidence There is no disputing what has happened in Idaho.

Washington state is like a fish bowl its far too small and the deer/elk are concentrated in to a very small area most of the year and when you add a wolf pack into the equation it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it will be a disaster.  The winter range in the methow is so small that one pack of wolves could easily kill 500+ deer from November to February and that will totally cripple the herd for decades to come.

This concept that wolves need to exist in every place that they existed 500 years ago is beyond crap....wolves are not an endangered species there are plenty of them in places that are capable of handling them.......washington is not one of them even if the wolf loving wacko's want to have field trips once a year to listen to them howl. 

I really don't understand why some of the Pollyanna's around here think that we need wolves...we dont...go to wolf haven if you want to cuddle with one.  They dont belong in our Eco system especially the non native species that we are getting shoved down our throats.

[wolfbait]

Well you may be right on all of that Kain. But here is an example of someone that actually saw 2 wolves go across the road in front of him just below the new wolf habitat. This guy not only took pictures of the wolves, which were as tame as housecats, but he reported his sightings to the proper people, and they turned it into an, I don't beleive him. People here in the valley, said there ya go.

Wolfbait - What are you basing this statement on ?  Can you clarify this please ?  Especially the "tame as housecats" comment ( sounds like you were there, or you have talked to the person directly ?? )  And how do you know the sightings were/were not reported to the proper people, and they "didn't believe him".  Help me out here.

There was an article in the Wenatchee World about the man who saw the wolves and that he did not have any problem taking the pictures. Of course, there was a lot of discussion about the event and the resultant hearsay as people spoke with him about it. Some are credible, some are not and that is pretty easy to wade through and discern. I was not there. The "tame as housecats" comment was a product of all the discussions (I regret inserting that bit of levity into a heavy and serious subject). However, my personal experiences with the wolves contributed to that humor. I have been shocked as we have encountered them how unafraid they were of us. In fact, they seemed to be very curious and actually kept approaching us at a very close distance. Sorry about the humor that may have caused any misunderstanding.  

[wolfbait]

[
My question is, Please show us your proof that canadian wolves have not had the devastating impact in the areas of idaho that everyone (including local residents) say the elk and deer herds have been decimated, including many F&G employees.

Great question.

 Response??

I never said they're not having an effect, but I'm not so sure that the wolf effect on elk is a devastating as some might say. Aside from anecdotal evidence (which goes a long way if you are anti wolf  ) there are some studies showing that wolves are not eating themselves out of prey.  

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/wildlife/manage_issues/ung/elkupdate.cfm

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/releases/view.cfm?NewsID=3156  

Roadkill...malnutrition...lions... why isn't anyone screaming about that?

The history of the Canadian gray wolves show that whenever these wolves move into an area they decimate the wildlife. As far as the anti-wolf comment, most of us like the wolves that were native to the lower 48. We do not like the wolves that were brought in because of the damage that they are doing. The ecosystem was balanced fairly well, and when it became one-sided it could be helped along with more hunting or less hunting. But with the introdution of the Canadian wolves, it is an ongoing slaughter. These wolves reproduce at a very successful rate. With no management of these wolves as there are with other wildlife, it does not take a genius to figure out where the wolf will be in the near future. The wolves, in the end, will eat themselves out of wildlife prey if they are not managed responsibly.

[boneaddict]

I've got all sorts of fresh data from geist.  It will jsut take me some time to get it on here when I am not at work.

By the way, they are also commenting that the wolves are increasing the roadkill because the deer feel safer on or near the road.   I never thought of that. 

[wolfbait]

Roadkill...malnutrition...lions... why isn't anyone screaming about that?


If the wolves don't start getting some management, the only road kill you will soon be seeing is people's livestock and wolves. Maybe at a later date we will be discussing our malnutritioned wolves. When the wolves get done with what's left of our elk, deer and moose, they will eat all the lions. How's that?  Mr. Wacoyotehunter, I believe I understand where you are with the wolf issue on this forum, here is an example: if your fingers were the wolves and somebody slammed the door on your fingers, you would argue till hell froze over it wasn't the door that smashed the hell out of your fingers!

[Kain]

Personally I like WAcoyotehunters comments and questions.  He is asking for exactly the same thing that the WDFW and any other organization and public will want.  Facts and proof.  Rumors and personal feelings will have no weight with the government and public.  The AR's will actually use them against you and say you have no proof and are just afraid of superstitions and wives tails.  They will diminish any valid point you have by pointing out any weakness in your argument.

WAcoyotehunter pointed out some credible links and asked good questions.  What do we do when we get two reports from credible sources that contradict each other?  Pete Zager says that elk hunter harvest is down 10000 elk per year since wolves were introduced and they had to reduce the number of tags for 2009.  But the report WAcoyotehunter posted says elk populations are above objectives.  What does this mean?  This is good for us to figure out.