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Author Topic: Wolves eating all our deer  (Read 170293 times)

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #375 on: June 16, 2009, 01:09:25 PM »
The love the predator mentality has always been around.  Look how much energy was put into hawks etc. 

What bothers me is that hunting is NOT an effective way to control wolves.  Even Geist said it.  Mostly hunting only get the ones that are kicked out of the pack due to age and sickness.  What BC is doing well is reducing conflict with man because of their season of each hunter being able to shoot 3 of them.  All of the ones that pattern man or are humanized are SHOT.  All the wild ones stay out in the wild.  Isn't helping their deer and elk any, but at least they control that part of the equation.  Once a wolf starts patterning man, Lick the lips..... lunch.  We are sitll in deep with no trapping and other means of control.

Offline WDFW-SUX

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #376 on: June 16, 2009, 01:18:04 PM »
So if the fawn surveys start showing up blank how long until we are on a permit only / closed hunt in the valley?
THE WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND WILDLIFE SUCKS MORE THAN EVER..........

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #377 on: June 16, 2009, 01:36:49 PM »
So if the fawn surveys start showing up blank how long until we are on a permit only / closed hunt in the valley?

Don't have an answer to that but I would say it won't be long. The only reason I know about the fawn servey is through a friend who knows a certain wildlife biologist, the infromation was not put out to the public that I know of. back in the 80's I found a spot back in the Coal crick area where it was a fawn killing ground for the black bears, same with Bromus crick. Now with the wolves diggin in, it's anyones guess.

Offline WDFW-SUX

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #378 on: June 16, 2009, 01:39:28 PM »
I had herd that there was some concern last year over a low number....  I even herd the suggestion from the Bio that if it did not improve there would be some significant cut backs in the seasons.  winter and wolves =  very bad things.
THE WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND WILDLIFE SUCKS MORE THAN EVER..........

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #379 on: June 16, 2009, 04:00:54 PM »
This is something I found quite some time ago, and it is an example of what is perhapes going to happen here. The deer huntin will continue as if these wolves were just discovered last year in 08. the deer are doing just fine Blaw,blaw,blaw. I talk to someone just this afternoon, who said the same thing that plenty of locals are saying, the deer are gone. We see them around peoples places and in town, and even the town deer are down. So if these wolves were just discovered in 08, it could be said that the wolves had nothing to do with the deer population being so low. after all they swear up n down that these wolves just came in on their own, picked the Methow valley out of the whole state of Washington. :bash: :bash: :bash:




Crying Wolf Again - The Federal Cover-Up

Rep. Joe Balyeat
 

"Truth is violated by falsehood, but it is outraged by silence" (Henri
Frederic Amiel)

 

Federal wildlife biologists have taken much criticism lately for their sins
of commission-falsifying lynx evidence where there were no lynx. But even
more disastrous than their sins of commission, are their sins of omission.
MT House FWP Chairman Dan Fuchs has obtained hard evidence of the following:

1)The Feds have known since 1997 that elk calf ratios were being totally
decimated in areas of high wolf concentration.

2)When MT FWP personnel attempted to release this evidence to the public,
the Feds  aggressively barred MT FWP from doing so.

 

Beginning in 1997, Carrie Schaefer did a study of Yellowstone wolf/elk
interaction entitled "Spatial and Temporal Variation in Wintering Elk
Abundance and Composition, and Wolf Response." Amongst other things, her
study revealed that areas of high wolf concentration inside Yellowstone had
calf ratios dropping precipitously - 0 to 10 calves per 100, even while the
ratio outside high wolf concentration areas remained at 46 calves per 100!
When MT FWP biologist Tom Lemke and others made written request for
permission to release this data to the public; the Fed response to suppress
it was swift, aggressive, and sustained. On 2/18/99, Yellowstone
Supervisory Biologist Glenn Plumb wrote: "It is my position, after
reviewing Ms. Schaefer's investigation, that her raw data do not warrant
full distribution to the public" On 3/18/99, in an interoffice Memo, Plumb
again denied the request: "Regarding your request for elk classification
data generated through Carrie Schaefer's ongoing research.we were remiss in
presenting Ms. Schaefer's.data in the Yellowstone Wolf Project Annual
Report." And they were able to hide this striking wolf predation in the
annual reports because they only gave averages for the entire northern herd
- when the 0 calf ratios in high wolf areas were averaged with the 46 calf
ratios from elsewhere, the average was still up near the 30 calf ratio
needed to sustain herd viability.

Of course, the Feds rationalized their suppression by saying that
Schaefer's study was just raw data and still ongoing. Yet even after her
report was completed the Feds never publicized nor (to our knowledge) ever
gave permission to MT FWP to release the information. In fact, one MT FWP
biologist who is directly involved with decisions related to Yellowstone
elk has stated that the data was so well suppressed that he hasn't even
seen it. Rep. Fuchs only got a copy of Schaefer's study and the related
inter-agency letters after aggressively demanding copies of all documents
related to the incident.

Last winter when Fuchs, myself, and other officials did our own elk calf
survey we discovered the calf ratio had plummeted. The initial response
from amateur wolf advocates and some professional biologists was, "These
guys are hacks and don't know how to count". After the official elk census
came out and totally substantiated our claims, they changed their tune.
They said, "OK, they're right about the drop, but we can't prove it's due
to wolves. It could be drought or hard winters, etc."

Yet the Schaefer study strongly implicates wolves as the significant factor
in two different ways. First, geographically - during the course of the
same winter, she observed alarmingly low calf ratios in high wolf areas
even while calf ratios remained above average outside high wolf areas. This
mitigates against the notion that the low calf ratios are caused by drought
or hard winters.

Secondly, when coupled with current data for the entire Northern
Yellowstone elk herd; an alarming pattern is revealed. In 1997 and 98, the
low calf ratio was confined to areas of high wolf concentration - the Lamar
Valley, etc. In this last year or so, as dense wolf populations have
reached critical mass across the entire northern Yellowstone Range; we
"surprisingly" see the area of low calf ratio also expand to encompass the
entire herd.

Let's cut to the chase (pardon the pun). Our ancestors realized long ago
that the wolf is a unique critter - a killing machine and a breeding
machine all rolled into one. Alaskan studies reveal wolf population
increases of 34% annually, even while being aggressively hunted. Data from
the first few years of our Tri-state wolf experiment also verify this same
34% annual increase. It doesn't take a CPA (or a professional wildlife
biologist) to figure out that this rate results in a 1000% increase in
population size every 8 years!

If the Feds continue to break promises, suppress evidence, and drag their
feet for 3-5 more years; our wildlife and livestock may need to be placed
on the Endangered Species List by then (never mind our pet dogs, llamas,
and small children). I repeat - we are not calling for eradication of
wolves. We are simply saying that NOW is the time for the Feds to move
immediately to de-list the wolf; so that MT, Wyoming, and Idaho state Fish
& Game Departments can manage wolves like any other species. It's time for
the Feds to make up for past sins (of commission and omission) by turning
over wolf decisions to more trustworthy managers.

http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/may_2002/crying_wolf_again.htm







Offline WDFW-SUX

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #380 on: June 16, 2009, 04:02:29 PM »
Ugh.
THE WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND WILDLIFE SUCKS MORE THAN EVER..........

Offline jackelope

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #381 on: June 16, 2009, 04:16:31 PM »
wolfbait == the new linkman.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline WDFW-SUX

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #382 on: June 16, 2009, 04:20:33 PM »
wolfbait has some great info.  Thanks :tup:

I think this issue of low fawn ratio's is going to become really apparent in reduced or closed seasons very soon.  The same people who are pro wolf in the Vally won't shed one tear about it either. Sucks but I don't think there is anything that is going to be done to stop any of this either. :twocents:
THE WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND WILDLIFE SUCKS MORE THAN EVER..........

Offline sooperfly

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #383 on: June 16, 2009, 04:54:21 PM »
Well you may be right on all of that Kain. But here is an example of someone that actually saw 2 wolves go across the road in front of him just below the new wolf habitat. This guy not only took pictures of the wolves, which were as tame as housecats, but he reported his sightings to the proper people, and they turned it into an, I don't beleive him. People here in the valley, said there ya go.

Wolfbait - What are you basing this statement on ?  Can you clarify this please ?  Especially the "tame as housecats" comment ( sounds like you were there, or you have talked to the person directly ?? )  And how do you know the sightings were/were not reported to the proper people, and they "didn't believe him".  Help me out here.


There was an article in the Wenatchee World about the man who saw the wolves and that he did not have any problem taking the pictures. Of course, there was a lot of discussion about the event and the resultant hearsay as people spoke with him about it. Some are credible, some are not and that is pretty easy to wade through and discern. I was not there. The "tame as housecats" comment was a product of all the discussions (I regret inserting that bit of levity into a heavy and serious subject). However, my personal experiences with the wolves contributed to that humor. I have been shocked as we have encountered them how unafraid they were of us. In fact, they seemed to be very curious and actually kept approaching us at a very close distance. Sorry about the humor that may have caused any misunderstanding.  

Wolfbait,

I am the person mentioned in the article that had the encounter with the wolves.  I put up a little report here back when it happened. 

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,26507.msg303815.html#msg303815

Also, nowhere in the article do either the Federal or State biologists indicate they "don't believe him." Actually, it's the exact opposite.

Wenworld article here:  http://wenatcheeworld.com/article/20090508/NEWS04/705089996

And your comment about "not having any problem" getting their picture ?  Well, my camera ( a high performing sports/wildlife favorite ) is always turned "on" and sitting next to me in my truck with a large aperture telephoto lens attached.  Great for low-light encounters such as this one.  I'm confident if  I'd had a lesser camera/lens combo, my point'n shoot camera, or something like it I wouldn't  have been able to get much of a picture.  I lucked out by the wolves having to go up a steep hill, exposing them for a little bit.  As I said in my earlier posting, the adult never stopped.  When I made some sounds, the juvenile stopped a couple times, enabling me to get side profile pictures.

Also, in reference to the Wenworld article...  their are some gross inaccuracies in it.  Including me "bringing the photographs" to the biologists.  I've not met or talked to either of them. They have only viewed the pictures like everybody else on the slideshow, and received my report second hand.  I've not released any pictures to any of the government agencies that requested them.  Also, all of the local, state and national news organizations that have contacted me to do an interview and publish the pictures have been turned down. 

This was my second encounter face to face with wolves. The first was last year hiking with my dad in the Lake Chelan Sawtooth.  I posted it on nwhikers only, I'm not sure I knew hunting-wa even existed then!   :)       http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7968174&highlight=


Offline jackelope

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #384 on: June 16, 2009, 04:57:57 PM »
 :peep:
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #385 on: June 16, 2009, 05:36:20 PM »
Well its good to get it straight. There were several conversations going on about the article, and what exzackly took place. I suppose this is a good example of what hearsay can do in some instances. I received a farely good ass-chewing from my wife this morning for even mentioning the wolves that were seen, because I was going on what people told me rather than making sure of all the facts before I through it out there. Thank you for letting us know the whole storey. What is your idea on these wolves that we have here.

Offline Curly

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #386 on: June 16, 2009, 06:55:20 PM »
Sooperfly, thanks for the link to NWhiker.

Did you here is some of what they are saying over there:

Quote
wahiker88 wrote:
That conservation northwest site is very one sided.. 

Yeah, you sure couldn't say that about some of the hunting sites.   

Slider: One down seven to go!!!

ICEMAN: First poaching case I ever remember being glad to hear about.

HoundDawg: I hope they can somehow figure out a way to beat the rap. I'll just be clear on my position with all this stuff:
1 - **** the Feds
2 - **** the wolves
3 - **** their laws regarding the wolves
4 - **** Mitch Friedman and his Conserv. organization
5 - **** 'em all
I'm with the White's on this one, easiest call I've ever had to make.

Gutpile: They call it poaching. I call it community service.

509er: hopefully they were mailing it to Ashley Judd.

C-Money: To bad the guy did not get them all!

Colville: Hunters can't get a bad name for an illegal poaching act any more than legal gun owners get a bad name from armed robbery.

MichaelJ: If I ever meet the fellas that shot the wolves, I'll say "shame on you" then shake his hand...

or what about this quote:

Quote
Well, go check out Hunting Washington forum. Those *censored*es almost to a man support the poaching of these wolves. When the vast majority of a group supports poaching an endangered species, then what other conclusion can  you draw? Hunters will claim that "hunters" and "poachers" are two different things, but when you read their own words when they feel they are in safe company, then you quickly realize that they are, in many instances, one and the same. And those who don't actually poach support those who do.  "Our" idiot hunters seem to be a typical example, not some egregious outliers.

At least there is a guy named Wahiker88 that is defending hunters.  (And he has a great avatar too). :)

Here is another quote from a guy that is clueless:

Quote
Funny, I read other threads on that site that complained of the massive winter-kill and how the deer and elk are way over-populated. Yet those morons don't make any connection between a missing apex predator and a massively over-populated prey species. No, they just see some vague and undefined government and urban-hippie plot to deprive them of their god-given rights. 

Maybe a lot of you guys have already read this over at NWhiker, but I had not............ could be entertaining reading if you don't get too riled up over anything like that.
May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I am.

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Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #387 on: June 16, 2009, 07:31:31 PM »
One mistake does not hide the truth about the problems we are having with the wolves. I should have check the facts, that was a first and a last for me. This wolf issue will affect everyone sooner or later. Here's a little something to think about for those of you that take your dogs with you on your hikes. 

Wolf pack kills dog on N. Fork


By Carole Cloudwalker



This document was published online on Wednesday, June 10, 20     

 
 
It took Nick Roberts’ dog “Capone” an hour to die after he was attacked Saturday evening by a pack of eight wolves.

Unarmed and backpacking alone with Capone, the four-year-old companion he’d raised from a pup, Roberts was about eight miles from the Eagle Creek Trailhead on the North Fork when he reached the meadows.

“It started raining and I began setting up my tent,” Roberts recalled.

Capone was a friendly, curious Lab/border collie mix who weighed 65-70 pounds. He had bounded some 100 yards away from his master to investigate a site where someone with a large entourage had recently broken camp, leaving interesting scents for a happy young dog to investigate.

“He was just sort of wandering around,” Roberts said.

As Roberts went about establishing his own camp with the dog nearby, he heard some barking.

“I thought it was a bear at first,” Roberts said.

Fearing a grizzly had come to call, Roberts rushed to the old campsite where his dog had gone. He arrived only to see eight full-grown wolves circling something he realized with a sinking feeling must be his Capone.

“I couldn’t see the dog,” Roberts said. “There were some trees in the way, and the wolves were in a low spot. But I figured they’d already killed the dog.”

He yelled at the wolf pack, and the big animals ��“ each of which easily outweighed Capone ��“ froze in place.

“They stopped and just stared at me for a second, then they ran off,” Roberts said.

“I went to the dog. He was still alive, but he was torn up pretty badly.”

Initially, Capone was incapable of walking, having sustained two broken ribs, a large puncture in his belly and multiple other wounds that all were bleeding profusely.

“There were five places where chunks of skin were missing,” Roberts said.

He carried his bleeding dog back to the tent.

Roberts, who had minimal equipment for such chores, had only a jacket in which to wrap his dog and attempt to dry him to stop the stunned animal’s shivering.

At one point Capone recovered sufficiently to stand on all four legs, though at first his hindquarters did not appear to be functioning, his owner said. He thought the wolves possibly had injured the dog’s spine or hind legs.

“Finally his breaths got longer and longer. By then it was dark out,” Roberts recalled.

“It took him an hour to die.”

Roberts stood vigil, still fearing the blood the dog had spilled would attract a grizzly.

At sunrise, with no shovel, about three inches of new, wet spring snow on the ground and more falling heavily, Roberts said he was forced to leave the body of his dog behind and begin the long trek back to the trailhead.

“I ended up leaving him there,” he said. “I was nervous about getting out of there myself.”

Roberts, 25, lives in Cody and in the summer works as a seasonal fisheries technician for the Game and Fish Department. In the winter he works in construction.

An experienced backpacker, Roberts estimates the wolves “probably were there the whole time,” possibly led to the abandoned camp site for the same reasons Capone was drawn to it ��“ interesting smells and the possibility of something to eat.

But Capone had one motive the wolves likely did not, Roberts said.

“He thought the wolves were other dogs, and he wanted to play,” he said. “He’d seen wolves before but not up close. He was excited to go play with them. He liked to play with other dogs.”

Other G&F employees told him the wolf pack, when confronted by a lone dog, most likely attacked simply because “wolves hate dogs.”

Though Roberts has been backpacking many times, “That’s as far up as I’d ever been,” he said.

He does not blame the wolves for doing what comes naturally to them, even though it cost his dog’s life. But if he had it to do over again, he might carry a weapon, and “definitely I would have kept a closer eye on Capone,” Roberts said.

He planned to report the incident to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, which is in charge of wolf management.

Asked if he would have shot at the wolves had he been carrying a gun, Roberts carefully considered his reply.

“I’m not sure,” he said finally.

(Carole Cloudwalker can be reached at carole@codyenterprise.com.)

http://codyenterprise.com/articles/2009/06/10/news/doc4a3025e1676db293514511.txt
 
 
 

Offline WDFW-SUX

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #388 on: June 16, 2009, 07:34:57 PM »
Im kinda sad they left me out :rolleyes:
THE WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND WILDLIFE SUCKS MORE THAN EVER..........

Offline Curly

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #389 on: June 16, 2009, 07:41:42 PM »
Quote
Asked if he would have shot at the wolves had he been carrying a gun, Roberts carefully considered his reply.

“I’m not sure,” he said finally.

I know I would have  :guns:.   I bet he would have too, he just didn't want to admit it to the reporter.
May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I am.

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