Over shooting?⁹

[baldopepper]

Did a little final look around my general area yesterday. Saw 28 whitetails, not a single buck and, perhaps more alarming, only 4 fawns.  Been seeing that pretty much all year. Just way to many dry does and this time of year no bucks chasing em. Around the house I've got the usual herd of about 40 muledeer and there are 18 fawns and at least 4 bucks chasing the does. If it was just predators I'd see the figures more equal. Honestly, I think we're way overharvesting the whitetail bucks in the area.  Kids saw a few whitetail.bucks during the hunt, shot 3 decent ones but also said they saw a lot more does unaccompanied by a buck than usual. Saw 5 hunters with deer, 4  spikes and 1 small 3x.  Not sure if an apr would help, but I beleive our buck to doe ratio is way out of whack, and that's with seeing way less does than usual. Now we're gonna have another  go at em with a 20.day late archery hunt. Nearly 4 months of pressure on these bucks with a shoot any buck regulation is just too much in my opinion

 
 

 
 


 

 
 
 
 

[jrebel]

I would agree, except the buck to doe ratio is decent or above average in areas of large private tracts of land and the fawn recruitment is still garbage.   Predators are the bigger issue without a doubt.  I have pics to prove it. 

Kill predators and this problem will fix itself

[baldopepper]

Well, I know they're a problem but even on the large tracts of private property  vaugen and Dashiell properties, I'm seeing the same thing.  Way too many dry does and and way fewer bucks than in the past.  Mule deer ratios seem to be holding pretty steady.  Don't get me wrong, I know the lion population is way out of control around us, but these long seasons  of shooting any whitetail  buck are compounding the problem.

[hunter399]

Fawn survival is definitely a predator problem.
All other problems can be associated with human causes.

[baldopepper]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

[jrebel]

I guess this is where our experiences differ.  First year of owning our property only buck we had was a spike.   Literally…..only buck we saw on camera.   Had plenty of does, but only saw one spike, even during the rut.   

5-6 years later, the doe population is down (mostly from blue tongue) and the buck population is up substantially (not to where I would like it to be, but is significantly better than 5-6 years ago).  The does are pregnant and the babies are decimated within days to weeks of being born.  Fawn recruitment is stupid low in our area.   

Only change I have seen or been a part of is…..increased number of wolves, increased number of cats, increased number of bears!!  Landowners are still hunting them and average kill numbers are being reported.   We are not on public land so I know my perception is skewed, because we don’t have an over harvest issue.   

30 years ago this same area had more liberal hunting dates. As well it had a lot more hunters and the deer numbers were booming.  Only change between then and now was predators.   How would one explain this? 
 

[baldopepper]

Actually have a lot more hunters in the area now.  Never used to see archery hunters or muzzy hunters and the late hunt had maybe a third of what you see now.  Don't know how much you get out on the public pieces,  but they were packed this week. Side by sides and quads were everywhere, and all those recent little hunting cabin sites seemed to have at least 2 or 3 rigs parked around them. Used to see hunters on that late hunt, but not like these last few years

[bigmacc]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

The buck - doe ratio could be an issue but something else that goes with growing predator populations is the stress factors that a deer has to cope with 24/7/365. Stress and increasing stress does disrupt breeding. And can affect fawn crops, not only from predation of the fawns but does just not getting bred.

[hunter399]

Actually have a lot more hunters in the area now.  Never used to see archery hunters or muzzy hunters and the late hunt had maybe a third of what you see now.  Don't know how much you get out on the public pieces,  but they were packed this week. Side by sides and quads were everywhere, and all those recent little hunting cabin sites seemed to have at least 2 or 3 rigs parked around them. Used to see hunters on that late hunt, but not like these last few years

I agree pretty packed this last week. For sure

[hunter399]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

I'm not saying true or not.
But our biologist would have you believe every doe that goes into heat gets pregnant.

Even if that was true ,that every doe gets pregnant.
How many are aborted from many factors.
Predator,multiseason, just constant pressure,more recreational users throughout the year.
Closing down areas ,and locking roads for winter wildlife would be a start. I'm talking roads that are traditional open year round.

Predator season just started today in my mind
How many are planning trips to go predator hunting,just as they would deer hunting. How many hunters did you see today.
All the people that traveled here for deer are not coming back or sticking around for predator hunting.

We have the ability to fix some problems with seasons, regulations, predator hunting.

[baldopepper]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

I'm not saying true or not.
But our biologist would have you believe every doe that goes into heat gets pregnant.

Even if that was true ,that every doe gets pregnant.
How many are aborted from many factors.
Predator,multiseason, just constant pressure,more recreational users throughout the year.
Closing down areas ,and locking roads for winter wildlife would be a start. I'm talking roads that are traditional open year round.

Predator season just started today in my mind
How many are planningrips to go predator hunting,just as they would deer hunting. How many hunters didou see today.
All the people that traveled here for deer are not coming back or sticking around for predator huntinitg.

We have the ability to fix some problems with seasons, regulations, predator hunting.

All good points, lot of factors for sure.  While I'm not totally sold on aprs, I do know mule deer ratios are good and we saw a ton of small mule deer bucks this past week. Only thing different Round us is 3 point minimum on mule deer and any buck on whitetail. By far the majority of whitetails shot in our area are spikes or small forks.  I also know the number of hunters increased dramatically when they dropped the apr on whitetail
 
 
 

[hunter399]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

I'm not saying true or not.
But our biologist would have you believe every doe that goes into heat gets pregnant.

Even if that was true ,that every doe gets pregnant.
How many are aborted from many factors.
Predator,multiseason, just constant pressure,more recreational users throughout the year.
Closing down areas ,and locking roads for winter wildlife would be a start. I'm talking roads that are traditional open year round.

Predator season just started today in my mind
How many are planningrips to go predator hunting,just as they would deer hunting. How many hunters didou see today.
All the people that traveled here for deer are not coming back or sticking around for predator huntinitg.

We have the ability to fix some problems with seasons, regulations, predator hunting.

All good points, lot of factors for sure.  While I'm not totally sold on aprs, I do know mule deer ratios are good and we saw a ton of small mule deer bucks this past week. Only thing different Round us is 3 point minimum on mule deer and any buck on whitetail. By far the majority of whitetails shot in our area are spikes or small forks.  I also know the number of hunters increased dramatically when they dropped the apr on whitetail no
 
 
 

I'm not exactly sure what year mult-season kicked in.
2014 was the last year with an APR for WT.
Thought multiseason started just a few years before.
Even though your not seeing them,there are more bucks than the eye may see.
They have evolved a bit through the years to survive.
I can't say everything on this site.(hunting secrets)
Public land goes, can't hunt the rut if there are no doe on public.
Same goes ....
Even if a doe is hot , doesn't always mean there is a buck near by.
I'll try to explain best I can.
You know how the guys from the coast always say black tail are ghosts.
Same goes for WT ,the big ones are ghosts.
I mean to trail cams,trails ,patterns,daylight, breeding.all kinds of stuff. That's why you see the smaller one getting shot.
Just trust me when I say they have evolved to adopt to hunting season.
Give it a week or so, you'll start to see them move a bit.

[baldopepper]

Hope you're right, but they better not move to much because wdfw in their wisdom figured the archery guys needed another 20 days to chase em.

[buckcanyonlodge]

Well, I know they're a problem but even on the large tracts of private property  vaugen and Dashiell properties, I'm seeing the same thing.  Way too many dry does and and way fewer bucks than in the past. Mule deer ratios seem to be holding pretty steady.  Don't get me wrong, I know the lion population is way out of control around us, but these long seasons  of shooting any whitetail  buck are compounding the problem.

Mule deer ratios are NOT holding steady where I am...and that's only 6 miles to the north of you. There are only 7 does in the local herd that used to be 25 does.      3 fawns and NO bucks in the present herd. One traveling buck finally showed up (2 point) to breed the 7 does. I had one 3 point whitetail buck that disappeared the day before opening day and only 3 does. WAY down in numbers. I say limit the tags or close the season here to give the herds a breather..and open up predator kills. I have never seen so many hunters as I have seen this year. Even had 3 guys in orange set up 20 feet from my mail box.  looking toward my house. Had two encounters with house shooters in the early hunt.

[hunter399]

Hope you're right, but they better not move to much because wdfw in their wisdom figured the archery guys needed another 20 days to chase em.

Yup, archery starts right after Thanksgiving.
There still gonna be a little sketchy then.
By December they'll lose up a bit

[hunter399]

Well, I know they're a problem but even on the large tracts of private property  vaugen and Dashiell properties, I'm seeing the same thing.  Way too many dry does and and way fewer bucks than in the past. Mule deer ratios seem to be holding pretty steady.  Don't get me wrong, I know the lion population is way out of control around us, but these long seasons  of shooting any whitetail  buck are compounding the problem.

Mule deer ratios are NOT holding steady where I am...and that's only 6 miles to the north of you. There are only 7 does in the local herd that used to be 25 does.      3 fawns and NO bucks in the present herd. One traveling buck finally showed up (2 point) to breed the 7 does. I had one 3 point whitetail buck that disappeared the day before opening day and only 3 does. WAY down in numbers. I say limit the tags or close the season here to give the herds a breather..and open up predator kills. I have never seen so many hunters as I have seen this year. Even had 3 guys in orange set up 20 feet from my mail box.  looking toward my house. Had two encounters with house shooters in the early hunt.

I don't live on your side of mountain.
My side mule deer numbers are down.
I agree a lot of hunters this year.

[Lapua07]

Same on this side of the hump. Not many whitetail to look at even less with head gear. 40+ whitetail yesterday and 3 bucks. Fortunate enough to not hunt much public ground for whiteys. Buck to doe ratio is out of whack on both mule deer and whitetail. I fully agree on the over hunting for the actual population.  I'm pretty firm on the 4 point min for whitetail. Wish they implement it for mule deer as well. All honesty wish they'd go to draw only and 4 point min on muleys in the tri-county area. Best thing that's happened since the 4 point min was eliminating the any elk. .  But that's another conversation.

[jrebel]

Statewide.....hunters # are down. 

2013 statewide deer hunters.....123,928     Success 27.2%
2022 statewide deer hunters......94,143      Success 23.0%

Hunter numbers are down down 25%


District 1 #'s

2013 deer hunters......18,396     Success 26.7%
2022 deer hunters......14,166     Success 22.3%

Hunter numbers are down 23%

Assuming these numbers are correct, which I have to believe they are close......hunters numbers are down by a significant number.  Success is also down, which cold be contributed to a multitude of factors.  I tend to believe it is the increase in predator numbers.  I am not naive to believe that other factors don't influence deer populations....very clearly bad winters, blue tongue, poachers, APR's, likely have some influence.  BUTTTTT.....predator numbers are through the roof.  I see plenty of bucks all over District 1...well my trail cams see them.  I just don't believe the hunting pressure (day's afield) has that big of an impact.  Most hunters spend 4-10 days afield, regardless of how long the season is.  Of that...it is mostly on the weekends. 

[baldopepper]

Well, I know they're a problem but even on the large tracts of private property  vaugen and Dashiell properties, I'm seeing the same thing.  Way too many dry does and and way fewer bucks than in the past. Mule deer ratios seem to be holding pretty steady.  Don't get me wrong, I know the lion population is way out of control around us, but these long seasons  of shooting any whitetail  buck are compounding the problem.

Mule deer ratios are NOT holding steady where I am...and that's only 6 miles to the north of you. There are only 7 does in the local herd that used to be 25 does.      3 fawns and NO bucks in the present herd. One traveling buck finally showed up (2 point) to breed the 7 does. I had one 3 point whitetail buck that disappeared the day before opening day and only 3 does. WAY down in numbers. I say limit the tags or close the season here to give the herds a breather..and open up predator kills. I have never seen so many hunters as I have seen this year. Even had 3 guys in orange set up 20 feet from my mail box.  looking toward my house. Had two encounters with house shooters in the early hunt.
[/quote
I'd honestly say there are at best 1/3 the deer around us there were 20 years ago.  Our little herd of mules is pretty much isolated as my 20 acres and the approximate 200 acres around  me are private. We go down to the 1310 line but dont really have any boat hunters coming around anymore. Lot of irritating type hunters this year, they sit on hwy 25 with guns out the window scoping all the deer in the open field in front of the house. I agree, they need to either shut that area down for a while or put a strict apr on it.  I'd like to see a bounty on lions, maybe encourage more to hunt em. I said the ratios are holding steady, not the overall numbers.

[hunter399]

Statewide.....hunters # are down. 

2013 statewide deer hunters.....123,928     Success 27.2%
2022 statewide deer hunters......94,143      Success 23.0%

Hunter numbers are down down 25%


District 1 #'s

2013 deer hunters......18,396     Success 26.7%
2022 deer hunters......14,166     Success 22.3%

Hunter numbers are down 23%

Assuming these numbers are correct, which I have to believe they are close......hunters numbers are down by a significant number.  Success is also down, which cold be contributed to a multitude of factors.  I tend to believe it is the increase in predator numbers.  I am not naive to believe that other factors don't influence deer populations....very clearly bad winters, blue tongue, poachers, APR's, likely have some influence.  BUTTTTT.....predator numbers are through the roof.  I see plenty of bucks all over District 1...well my trail cams see them.  I just don't believe the hunting pressure (day's afield) has that big of an impact.  Most hunters spend 4-10 days afield, regardless of how long the season is.  Of that...it is mostly on the weekends.

That 2013 success number is from a 4pt min year.
Those are all 4pt mature WT, except probably a 100 mule deer.
Vs the 2022 success number is from an any buck year crop of dink bucks. With surplus being a few smart ones that made through.

If you can imagine that in 2013 .....3pt and smaller was WT was left on the landscape as surplus,breeder,just general more deer.

Think we do get a few more hunters than the numbers.
Just cause the way the reporting is.
Weekend here or a weekend there. If you report it,then it goes into how many days,and more questions.
Most people just want to report and be done,not 20 questions about it.
I do think the success rate is probably spot on
Tag soup guys are gonna pick a GMU,x number of day, done reporting. Not go into every hunting trip. Just a theory.
I would use the hunters numbers for a minimum. Alot of guys move around GMU during season,no reason to report it. If not successful.
I'm also saying it not far off, probably 5 percent more on both 2013 and 2022.

The difference in those years is onx map,hunters just basically following the deer numbers. Everyone wants to hunt where there are deer Vs hunting some crappy public land spot that not even a doe lives there during the season.

So I agree numbers wise, less hunters over the years.
But we are all bunched together in the better spots.which makes it seem like there is more .

Those are my theory.

[jrebel]

Statewide.....hunters # are down. 

2013 statewide deer hunters.....123,928     Success 27.2%
2022 statewide deer hunters......94,143      Success 23.0%

Hunter numbers are down down 25%


District 1 #'s

2013 deer hunters......18,396     Success 26.7%
2022 deer hunters......14,166     Success 22.3%

Hunter numbers are down 23%

Assuming these numbers are correct, which I have to believe they are close......hunters numbers are down by a significant number.  Success is also down, which cold be contributed to a multitude of factors.  I tend to believe it is the increase in predator numbers.  I am not naive to believe that other factors don't influence deer populations....very clearly bad winters, blue tongue, poachers, APR's, likely have some influence.  BUTTTTT.....predator numbers are through the roof.  I see plenty of bucks all over District 1...well my trail cams see them.  I just don't believe the hunting pressure (day's afield) has that big of an impact.  Most hunters spend 4-10 days afield, regardless of how long the season is.  Of that...it is mostly on the weekends.

That 2013 success number is from a 4pt min year.
Those are all 4pt mature WT, except probably a 100 mule deer.
Vs the 2022 success number is from an any buck year crop of dink bucks. With surplus being a few smart ones that made through.

If you can imagine that in 2013 .....3pt and smaller was WT was left on the landscape as surplus,breeder,just general more deer.

Think we do get a few more hunters than the numbers.
Just cause the way the reporting is.
Weekend here or a weekend there. If you report it,then it goes into how many days,and more questions.
Most people just want to report and be done,not 20 questions about it.
I do think the success rate is probably spot on
Tag soup guys are gonna pick a GMU,x number of day, done reporting. Not go into every hunting trip. Just a theory.
I would use the hunters numbers for a minimum. Alot of guys move around GMU during season,no reason to report it. If not successful.
I'm also saying it not far off, probably 5 percent more on both 2013 and 2022.

The difference in those years is onx map,hunters just basically following the deer numbers. Everyone wants to hunt where there are deer Vs hunting some crappy public land spot that not even a doe lives there during the season.

So I agree numbers wise less hunters over the years.
But we are all bunched together in the better spots.which makes it seem like there is more .

Those are my theory.

I get exactly what you are saying.....and the numbers are what they are.  We can only work with what is provided, but he overall hunter numbers are down.  I don't even disagree that pressure on our herds could be a problem....I just argue that the majority of the pressure if from predators. 

A 20 day archery season does not mean that every archery hunter is going to spend 20 days afield.  If you shortened the season, you would get he same number of "days afield" as you do with a 20 day season, just in a more concentrated time period.  Most hunters take "X" numbers of days off and don't hunt the entire season.  Predators on the other hand...apply pressure 365 days a year 24 hours a day. 

If you want to see moor deer...does and bucks alike....start killing predators.  We have made a concerted effort to kill bear in our normal areas.  We (3 of us) managed to kill 4 bears this year on one of our hunting areas.  This has to have a positive impact long turn.  We also managed one coyote.  I hope to spend some time looking for cougars and trapping bobcats this winter.  Point being....kill a predator, don't shorten a season.  APR's....well, I would have to think more about this.  I'm inherently am against, but could be persuaded....especially if they didn't apply to youth or 65/and over. 

[hunter399]

Statewide.....hunters # are down. 

2013 statewide deer hunters.....123,928     Success 27.2%
2022 statewide deer hunters......94,143      Success 23.0%

Hunter numbers are down down 25%


District 1 #'s

2013 deer hunters......18,396     Success 26.7%
2022 deer hunters......14,166     Success 22.3%

Hunter numbers are down 23%

Assuming these numbers are correct, which I have to believe they are close......hunters numbers are down by a significant number.  Success is also down, which cold be contributed to a multitude of factors.  I tend to believe it is the increase in predator numbers.  I am not naive to believe that other factors don't influence deer populations....very clearly bad winters, blue tongue, poachers, APR's, likely have some influence.  BUTTTTT.....predator numbers are through the roof.  I see plenty of bucks all over District 1...well my trail cams see them.  I just don't believe the hunting pressure (day's afield) has that big of an impact.  Most hunters spend 4-10 days afield, regardless of how long the season is.  Of that...it is mostly on the weekends.

That 2013 success number is from a 4pt min year.
Those are all 4pt mature WT, except probably a 100 mule deer.
Vs the 2022 success number is from an any buck year crop of dink bucks. With surplus being a few smart ones that made through.

If you can imagine that in 2013 .....3pt and smaller was WT was left on the landscape as surplus,breeder,just general more deer.

Think we do get a few more hunters than the numbers.
Just cause the way the reporting is.
Weekend here or a weekend there. If you report it,then it goes into how many days,and more questions.
Most people just want to report and be done,not 20 questions about it.
I do think the success rate is probably spot on
Tag soup guys are gonna pick a GMU,x number of day, done reporting. Not go into every hunting trip. Just a theory.
I would use the hunters numbers for a minimum. Alot of guys move around GMU during season,no reason to report it. If not successful.
I'm also saying it not far off, probably 5 percent more on both 2013 and 2022.

The difference in those years is onx map,hunters just basically following the deer numbers. Everyone wants to hunt where there are deer Vs hunting some crappy public land spot that not even a doe lives there during the season.

So I agree numbers wise less hunters over the years.
But we are all bunched together in the better spots.which makes it seem like there is more .

Those are my theory.

I get exactly what you are saying.....and the numbers are what they are.  We can only work with what is provided, but he overall hunter numbers are down.  I don't even disagree that pressure on our herds could be a problem....I just argue that the majority of the pressure if from predators. 

A 20 day archery season does not mean that every archery hunter is going to spend 20 days afield.  If you shortened the season, you would get he same number of "days afield" as you do with a 20 day season, just in a more concentrated time period.  Most hunters take "X" numbers of days off and don't hunt the entire season.  Predators on the other hand...apply pressure 365 days a year 24 hours a day. 

If you want to see moor deer...does and bucks alike....start killing predators.  We have made a concerted effort to kill bear in our normal areas.  We (3 of us) managed to kill 4 bears this year on one of our hunting areas.  This has to have a positive impact long turn.  We also managed one coyote.  I hope to spend some time looking for cougars and trapping bobcats this winter.  Point being....kill a predator, don't shorten a season.  APR's....well, I would have to think more about this.  I'm inherently am against, but could be persuaded....especially if they didn't apply to youth or 65/and over. 

I agree with ya..
Maybe keep posting those cougar pics.
People that want to hunt predators have to realize we have them
I know I'll keep trying,I'm not very good at it
When it's hot,there in your lap,when there not which is most the time ,it sucks.
I was also thinking about my trapping licence,I have the class part done,I just have to buy the license. I only have one cage.
But I might give it a try

[bigmacc]

Statewide.....hunters # are down. 

2013 statewide deer hunters.....123,928     Success 27.2%
2022 statewide deer hunters......94,143      Success 23.0%

Hunter numbers are down down 25%


District 1 #'s

2013 deer hunters......18,396     Success 26.7%
2022 deer hunters......14,166     Success 22.3%

Hunter numbers are down 23%

Assuming these numbers are correct, which I have to believe they are close......hunters numbers are down by a significant number.  Success is also down, which cold be contributed to a multitude of factors.  I tend to believe it is the increase in predator numbers.  I am not naive to believe that other factors don't influence deer populations....very clearly bad winters, blue tongue, poachers, APR's, likely have some influence.  BUTTTTT.....predator numbers are through the roof.  I see plenty of bucks all over District 1...well my trail cams see them.  I just don't believe the hunting pressure (day's afield) has that big of an impact.  Most hunters spend 4-10 days afield, regardless of how long the season is.  Of that...it is mostly on the weekends.

That 2013 success number is from a 4pt min year.
Those are all 4pt mature WT, except probably a 100 mule deer.
Vs the 2022 success number is from an any buck year crop of dink bucks. With surplus being a few smart ones that made through.

If you can imagine that in 2013 .....3pt and smaller was WT was left on the landscape as surplus,breeder,just general more deer.

Think we do get a few more hunters than the numbers.
Just cause the way the reporting is.
Weekend here or a weekend there. If you report it,then it goes into how many days,and more questions.
Most people just want to report and be done,not 20 questions about it.
I do think the success rate is probably spot on
Tag soup guys are gonna pick a GMU,x number of day, done reporting. Not go into every hunting trip. Just a theory.
I would use the hunters numbers for a minimum. Alot of guys move around GMU during season,no reason to report it. If not successful.
I'm also saying it not far off, probably 5 percent more on both 2013 and 2022.

The difference in those years is onx map,hunters just basically following the deer numbers. Everyone wants to hunt where there are deer Vs hunting some crappy public land spot that not even a doe lives there during the season.

So I agree numbers wise less hunters over the years.
But we are all bunched together in the better spots.which makes it seem like there is more .

Those are my theory.

I get exactly what you are saying.....and the numbers are what they are.  We can only work with what is provided, but he overall hunter numbers are down.  I don't even disagree that pressure on our herds could be a problem....I just argue that the majority of the pressure if from predators. 

A 20 day archery season does not mean that every archery hunter is going to spend 20 days afield.  If you shortened the season, you would get he same number of "days afield" as you do with a 20 day season, just in a more concentrated time period.  Most hunters take "X" numbers of days off and don't hunt the entire season.  Predators on the other hand...apply pressure 365 days a year 24 hours a day. 

If you want to see moor deer...does and bucks alike....start killing predators.  We have made a concerted effort to kill bear in our normal areas.  We (3 of us) managed to kill 4 bears this year on one of our hunting areas.  This has to have a positive impact long turn.  We also managed one coyote.  I hope to spend some time looking for cougars and trapping bobcats this winter.  Point being....kill a predator, don't shorten a season.  APR's....well, I would have to think more about this.  I'm inherently am against, but could be persuaded....especially if they didn't apply to youth or 65/and over.

👍some are figuring it out.

[baldopepper]

Obviously statewide:hunter numbers are down, but definitely not in our area.  For one thing the amount of people moving to the area, or at least building a seasonal place, is growing rapidly.  While some don't hunt, many are there because of the hunting and, of course, the proximity to the lake.  Many I run into admit they used to hunt the Westside, but say they don't like the crowds or lack of deer.  Also the Spokane area is growing rapidly and from there it's pretty easy day hunt.
Some like it because there's more area to ride their side by sides and quads (I think that's the real reason some come is to just ride around on em)  Whatever the reason, I know there are a lot more hunters around here than there used to be.  While success rates arent great, with more hunters it's logical they're overall killing more deer and the late hunt draws a lot if last chance hunters taking any legal deer they see.

[hunter399]

Obviously statewide:hunter numbers are down, but definitely not in our area.  For one thing the amount of people moving to the area, or at least building a seasonal place, is growing rapidly.  While some don't hunt, many are there because of the hunting and, of course, the proximity to the lake.  Many I run into admit they used to hunt the Westside, but say they don't like the crowds or lack of deer.  Also the Spokane area is growing rapidly and from there it's pretty easy day hunt.
Some like it because there's more area to ride their side by sides and quads (I think that's the real reason some come is to just ride around on em)  Whatever the reason, I know there are a lot more hunters around here than there used to be.  While success rates arent great, with more hunters it's logical they're overall killing more deer and the late hunt draws a lot if last chance hunters taking any legal deer they see. No

Well I know the mountain,you know which mountain.
Is a ATV ,SxS ,park all year long ,I mean all year long.
Snowmobile park in the winter.
It never gets a break. It's every weekend. From the time the snow melts ,still going now till the snow gets deep.
That place is always busy,year round.
It's the type of spot anymore,you can't even use the bathroom without someone watching you.

[jrebel]

Obviously statewide:hunter numbers are down, but definitely not in our area.  For one thing the amount of people moving to the area, or at least building a seasonal place, is growing rapidly.  While some don't hunt, many are there because of the hunting and, of course, the proximity to the lake.  Many I run into admit they used to hunt the Westside, but say they don't like the crowds or lack of deer.  Also the Spokane area is growing rapidly and from there it's pretty easy day hunt.
Some like it because there's more area to ride their side by sides and quads (I think that's the real reason some come is to just ride around on em)  Whatever the reason, I know there are a lot more hunters around here than there used to be.  While success rates arent great, with more hunters it's logical they're overall killing more deer and the late hunt draws a lot if last chance hunters taking any legal deer they see.

I'm definitely not trying to pester you.....but the above number show that hunters in the district 1 (NE corner) is down 22.3%.  In 121 using the same dates, it is down 6%.....So anecdotally in the finite spots you are looking, it may be more....but overall the numbers say it is decreased.  This would imply the hunting pressure is also down.   

2022....unit 121    4,089 deer hunters
2013....unit 121    4,346 deer hunters

That's a 6% decrease. 


At the end of the day.....I'm not willing to surrender any time to our WDFW / Commission.  If they are surrendered they will never come back.  Kill a predator and push the state, commission, feds, anyone that will listen....that predators have to be controlled if we want ungulates. 

[baldopepper]

Heck you're  not pestering me, just an interesting discussion. I don't know where they get their numbers, all I can go by is what I see.  To old to spend all day in the field, so usually drop the kids off where they want to hunt and then cruise around until time to pick em up. Cover fair amount of country  and often stop and talk to hunters when I see em.  Shot enough deer in my life so I really don't care if I ever shoot another one or not.  Often forget to take my gun lol. Might add that I used to often see a warden out and about, but haven't in at least 3 or 4 years now.

[hunter399]

I was out a bit during season ,all public land.
It was absolutely crazy in some spots,while other spots where vacant. So it definitely depends where your at on any given day.
Ya hunter numbers are down in every GMU.
But some spots are hot spots. Somebody seen a gamecam pic.
Or someone took a cell pic of a big buck in a Field. Or whatever ,that spot turns into hammered dog 💩.

Honestly I blame it on social media.
So many run cams,or just see something on the hoof.
Word of mouth through the cellular computer is strong.

A 200 acre stateland spot ,got 8 pickups there you better believe someone seen something. I can almost drive around look at the amount of hunters in any given spot and say yup there is a big boy somewhere.

[buckcanyonlodge]

Of those 4089 hunters at least half of them hunted the 1310 line in front of my house...which is only 100 yds wide.

[NOCK NOCK]

Curious about this.

Above numbers to me show that less hunters are killing more deer (by percentage)

[hunter399]

Curious about this.

Above numbers to me show that less hunters are killing more deer (by percentage)

Here is a chart.
Hunter numbers down
Harvest rate down.
That's for district 1 ,we traditionaly would stay about 5,000 deer a year harvested. That number dips way down from year to year.
Last year ,the numbers posted above,are the best they will ever get.
We had a very long late season last year,with snow.
I can almost bet the bank on it,that when you add in this year,short late season,with no snow . It will be a dramatic different than last year.

When I look at the numbers ,I see harvest down.
Most likely the same reason hunter numbers are down.
Nobody wants to buy a tag for a declining deer herd.
Even though I haven't added 2022 which is 4k ,like said above it was 4k for those reasons I listed above. And most likely will see a drop for this year ,same reasons.

[NOCK NOCK]

The hunters that are out there are more successful. Does that explain it better?   

With all things equal, 20% drop in hunters should also reflect 20% drop in kills.

[Mtnwalker]

The hunters that are out there are more successful. Does that explain it better?   

With all things equal, 20% drop in hunters should also reflect 20% drop in kills.

Which numbers are you referencing?

Per JReb's numbers on district 1

2013 had 18,396 hunters @ 26.7% success = 4911 kills
2022 had 14,166 hunters @ 22.3% success = 3159 kills

That means there was a 23% reduction in hunters but a 36% reduction in overall harvest. So the hunter to success ratio is going down, not up like you are stating

[baldopepper]

I wonder if the success rate is dropping at the same rate as the population decline. In other words, if the population drops 25% does the success rate drop by 25%?  Keep in mind also that I think in 2013 there were 2000 antleress tags in 121. 20,000 deer from a population of 100 000 is not as rough as 15,000 from a population of 50,000.  That's kinda what I wonder.

[10thmountainarcher]

Deer numbers have definitely taken a huge hit in the NE. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if it weren’t for the over abundance of predators though. Hunters obviously cause some stress on the herds, but the predators are putting extreme stress on them year round.

Edit to add: There was a wolf pack with over 20 wolves spotted a few weeks back in north 117. How many deer are they killing each day?

[NOCK NOCK]

The hunters that are out there are more successful. Does that explain it better?   

With all things equal, 20% drop in hunters should also reflect 20% drop in kills.

Which numbers are you referencing?

Per JReb's numbers on district 1

2013 had 18,396 hunters @ 26.7% success = 4911 kills
2022 had 14,166 hunters @ 22.3% success = 3159 kills

That means there was a 23% reduction in hunters but a 36% reduction in overall harvest. So the hunter to success ratio is going down, not up like you are stating

I'm using the same statistical process as WDFW's bonus point system.   

[hunter399]

The hunters that are out there are more successful. Does that explain it better?   

With all things equal, 20% drop in hunters should also reflect 20% drop in kills.

Which numbers are you referencing?

Per JReb's numbers on district 1

2013 had 18,396 hunters @ 26.7% success = 4911 kills
2022 had 14,166 hunters @ 22.3% success = 3159 kills

That means there was a 23% reduction in hunters but a 36% reduction in overall harvest. So the hunter to success ratio is going down, not up like you are stating

I'm using the same statistical process as WDFW's bonus point system.   

That's funny there.
I still don't understand the point system.
All I know is,I have points and never draw.  

[huntnnw]

I use to live in clayton years ago prior to the predator issue and peak of some great whitetail populations. I spent thousands of hours around Deer park, clayton, hunters and springdale and back then the buck to doe ratio around ag fields was way outta whack. I remember fields with 60-80 does and maybe 1 small buck at times. I lived on a 200 acre alfalfa field and we had near 80 deer out at times every night and maybe 12-15 bucks in its peak. One thing I noticed is when we got into the mountains to hunt the buck to doe ratios were very even and sometimes I had more bucks on cams than does. That still holds true today as I venture up away from farms there always seems to be a balance of bucks and does even if populations are down.

[hunter399]

I use to live in clayton years ago prior to the predator issue and peak of some great whitetail populations. I spent thousands of hours around Deer park, clayton, hunters and springdale and back then the buck to doe ratio around ag fields was way outta whack. I remember fields with 60-80 does and maybe 1 small buck at times. I lived on a 200 acre alfalfa field and we had near 80 deer out at times every night and maybe 12-15 bucks in its peak. One thing I noticed is when we got into the mountains to hunt the buck to doe ratios were very even and sometimes I had more bucks on cams than does. That still holds true today as I venture up away from farms there always seems to be a balance of bucks and does even if populations are down.

I agree with that assessment.