Through Brush?

[Bullkllr]

An encounter with a big blacktail yesterday got me wondering about the effect of brush on a bullet. My rule has always been any brush in my sight line = no shot. So I've never tried. Anyone have any success through brush?(realizing it obviously depends on how much is in the way)

Here's the story.
I had been out since daylight. No deer seen. Got back to the trail to the rig, no more than 50 yds. I had stashed my keys under a log. As I bent down to retrieve the keys, a buck springs out of the brush in front of me. Threw my gun (muzzle loader) up, but no hope for a shot. Buck disappeared with another deer in the brush to my right. This was a big'un. Tall wide 3x3 with way more antler than any blackie I've taken.
I circled downwind of where he went and put on a sneak. Sure enough about 50yds infront of me I see antlers. I had to get closer to get any shooting lane at all. Got to within 30yards; took awhile as it was still frozen but dry and very crunchy.

Anyway I watched this buck and the spike he was with for about 15 min. at close range. I finally crept to what was almost a shooting lane. There was one small bush near me, and another(bigger) nearer the buck. I was crouched, and put my gun on him in case he moved a couple feet to the left where I had a good lane. He stayed put. I figured if I at least got past the small bush my odds would be better. So I eased up another 10 feet or so. My gun was on him. He was facing straight away. More minutes pass, and he turns right at me.
He got nervous and moved finally. For a split second he was broadside, but with the screen of brush in front of him I didn't pull the trigger as he turned and disappeared.

Even though the range was around 20 yards and I was loaded with a 420 grain Maxiball, I just didn't feel confident. And in case you're wondering, yes, this buck is now haunting my dreams!

[ICEMAN]

I was under the impression that brush that is very close to the target, cannot deflect the shot but by a few degrees. Brush closer to you can deflect the shot alot.  If you clearly have a defined target with a few twigs between you and your kill zone, and the twigs are really close to the game, I would take the shot. (I am sure I may get some crud for stating that...)

Anyway, that is what I would do.

We actually shot at targets thru brush once. Put paper targets behind bushes, not too thick, shots barely deflected an inch off point of aim, not much more...

[Mike450r]

Brush can do very little to bullet flight and it can do a lot.  The main thing it can do besides alter the path is slow momentum and change bullet shape enough to cause a non fatal wound.  I will not shoot through small alder branches without a good lane of about a square foot give or take but I have shot through fern and salal effectively.

[tlbradford]

I think you handled it perfectly.  At 20 yards I would try a kill shot at vitals that are not blocked (ie head, neck) rather than shooting through brush.  As far as the effect on the bullet at that range and that close to the deer, I am unsure.

[arrowflinger]

If you are going to do that make sure that it isn't your buddy, a horse or your kid. To many people are killed by shooting through the brush..........................Verify what you are shooting at. Other then that I would pass as you did.

[coonhound]

You did the right thing, it would be haunting you worse if you hit him and lost him.

Good Choice, we need more like you,
Coon

[Houndhunter]

glad i found this

this is the shots i were talking about when i said "take the shot you have" and alota guys freaked. if ya got a 20yrd shot broadside, a lil brush aint guna hurt a thing, IMO

[Mike450r]

I guess I should also clarify what I had said in my earlier post regarding ferns and salal.  In these cases I had visual identification of a buck where the heart/lung area was obsucured by some fern or salal which was no more than a foot in front of the deer. 

[Chesapeake]

I used to think a bullet would "buck the brush" if it was close to the animal.

A few years back I took a shot at a raghorn that was maybe 30 yards away and standing right behind a 10 foot tall fir tree. I aimed to just pass the bullet through the soft ends of the limbs on one side and into his shoulder. My 375 grain muzzle loader bullet hit that elk in the rear hip. I finaly got him after several miles in deep snow.

I've had a few other instances where an unseen limb or twig has caused clean misses with muzzleloader size (300 grain plus) bullets and less than 50 yard ranges.

Now my policy is "Clear shot, or NO shot!"

[boneaddict]

Chesepeake's advice of clear shot or no shot is way better advice than hound is giving you.  Sorry hound, but you're going to take flack over this one too. 

[jackelope]

Sorry hound, but you're going to take flack over this one too.   

yep..i gave you flack on that one, and i'm giving it on this one too...it just ain't worth the risk.

[Antlershed]

I was watching hunting shows on VS the other day and I couldn't believe I saw a guy shoot through brush at a Muley. His shot was fatal, but its one I would never take.

[Chesapeake]

Here is a link with a little smidget of info on tests of a bullets abillity to "Buck Brush".

http://www.chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm

[Alchase]

I believe the "brush gun" pertaining to caliber is a myth. There have been tons of ballistic tests that prove there is no way to determine how a deflection is going to effect a bullet in a given situation. It does not matter if you are shooting a .45-70 or a .223 there is no way you can determine the actual deflection. I sure as heck would not not to bet my own or someone Else's life on what some people "believe" to be a better brush caliber.
A deflection is changing the path of the bullet from it's original course, shooting through brush there is no way to calculate that.
When I was about 12 years old I had a conversation about this subject with my uncle who use to be a PH in Africa for years. He started laughing at me when I told him I wanted to by a lever action 30-30 for a brush gun. He said his customer had his .416 double rifle have two deflections while trying to put down a wounded Buff in tall grass. Neither of the bullets hit the target at 20 yards. He said they were really lucky his backup hit vital during the charge or he would be dead. He looked me straight in the eye and asked
 "is it really worth your life or possibly someone Else's life to shoot through brush?"
Now every time I read an article in hunting magazines about the best brush guns I remember his words.

[LongTatLaw]

I gotta go the other way boys. I fully agree that you dont shoot unless you are 110% sure of the target and the backstop area behind it.

After that, I have taken dozens of shots where the animal is right beside the bush..meaning shrub not 10 ft fir tree.

If the bush is more than 5 feet from the animal I wont take the shot.

Ive pushed dozens of bullets through brush into deer and boar. Id say its impossible to tell how much deflection will occur but caliber is not irrelevant as some have suggested.

Given whatever obstruction... a big heavy bullet wont deflect to the same degree as a light bullet. As in, a muzzle loader, 12 gauge slug, or 45-70 hitting a branch will deflect less than a 223 would shot from the same angle into the same branch.

However, its hard to gauge how much deflection you will get... In my experience the shift is marginal when the brush is small and very near the animal.

My concern wouldnt be whether or not the bullet is gonna kill the animal but rather how well you can identify the target and the area behind it.

From what ur describing...it sounds like there my have been a field pic of me with that buck but your never ever wrong for leaning in the direction of caution!

[high country]

no clean shot=no clean shot.

one thing the is being left out is the expansion of the bullet can be totally screwed by brush. if you take the ultimate performer, the barnes x and fill the nose with some wood, you have a solid bullet, no better than an FMJ. if you take a softy like a nozzy solid base, horny, or speer and poke it into brush.....it might be a pancake by the time it gets to your critter.........food for thought.

one thing is 100% consistent-shooting through brush is never 100% consistent.

[shag]

For me It depends on two things.  How big is the rack and how close and thick is the brush.  Shot through ferns and black berrys and into elk on two occasions with a 50 cal.  Both hit right where I wanted and both elk went less than 30 yards.  Now on these shots the brush was within 1 yard of the critter.

Back when i first started hunting we'd been chasing a stud 160 class whitetail.  Several of us saw him on several occasions.  I was walking into an area with a good friend one evening.  We were just getting ready to split up when at the top of the draw I spotted the buck.  I had a good rest on a tree branch.  100yds broadside.  I didn't feel good about the shot.  I told my buddy there was too much buck brush between us and the buck.  he said Bull *censored*t take the shot!  I deceide not to shoot.  Just seemed like alot of brush.  About the time I lower my gun my buddys says I'm shooting!  I told him if he did and he wounded it he was on his own tracking.  Told him no way in hell would I shoot.  About then Boom!!!!   Big buck down.  Boiler room.  bang flop.

To this day I still wouldn't take that shot.

If it feels right it prolly is.  If it dosen't feel right it prolly ain't

[bearhunter59]

You did the right thing.  I had my elk hunt ruined by a couple of young punk yahoos, who thought they could shoot this elk I was on, through some trees.  Eight days into wetside rifle season, walking 10-12 miles a day, and I finally get on a bull again. (Got my buddy on a bull opening morning and let him shoot and tag it...that's another story). I could see him through the trees, quartering away.  But, there was too many branches to shoot.  So I start to walk up  the trail to get a clear shot on the bull.  I hear these two clowns come up the trail behind me, so I put my hand up for them to stop and I signalled I was on a bull.  They stopped and motioned that they'd stay put, so I turned to get on the bull again.  I had my gun up and on him, but was walking up the trail to get a clear lane.  All of a sudden I hear two shots close by and the bull bolts.  I look back to where the two yahoos had been standing and they had moved off the trail and had even more branches between them and the bull, but they were bound and determined to shoot it before me.  Needless to say, neither one of them hit the bull.  I was so pissed.  I wanted to throttle those two clowns.  I just yelled to them that I hope they have fun chasing him the rest of the day, cuz they would never see him again, and I turned and walked the 4 miles back out an called it quits for the season.  I'd had enough of yahoos for the season.  Oh well...it goes that way some years...

Anyway, you did the right thing.

[Kent Hunter]

I've had two occasions where I have shot through brush and both have been favorable. The second biggest whitetail that I have shot I shot through brush and the biggest black bear that I have shot was also shot with small christmas tree limbs blocking the shot. Now both of these shots were taken at less than 75 yards, but they were both "bang flop" shots. I wouldn't take any distance shots through brush though.

[shag]

Like I said,

If it feels right it prolly is.  If it don't it prolly ain't.

But that goes for any shot.  If your not sure about the shot, you prolly shouldn't take it.  Would I do it again?  You're damn right I would!

As someone once said, "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take".

[high country]

  As someone once said, "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take".

ahh the ol' if there's lead in the air there's a prayer, accuracy by volume theroy......I am from a different camp.

[shag]

All high and mighty,

You gotta beleive in yourself and your weapon and know it's limits.  There's a fine line.  I've never not got an animal I've shot at!!  That's 100%!!  Can you say the same???

Trust me I've passed on way to many to many critters!  And will continue to do so if it don't feel right!

[high country]

not a high and mighty thing at all. to me ethics are decided in the field on the spot, if I go into the field with an attitude of "what is the worst that could happen" the likelyhood of making an unetical decision is pretty high. add to this the dangers of not being able to see your target and what is beyond and it seems pretty risky to me. what do you do if there is something/someone behind the target that you already can't see well?

as for believing in myself and my rifle, I am one of the most cofident and competent riflemen you may meet, but I still no when to wait for a better shot.

I hope that you "brush shooters" never miss anything and it always goes 100% for you. I know that every year in ID there is at least one "brush shooter" that shoots his buddy, brother, dad or son......don't be that guy.

as I stated I am from a differnt camp.

[shag]

  High,

So the shots you missed went where? 

[Chuethou_b18c5]

i've shot 2 deers through brushes and have been sucessfull. Both were at about 80-90 yards...I'm not saying its giong to work everytime, just that i've been lucky

[BrushChimp]

I personally would have taken the shot. At twenty yards, I could of killed that buck with a sling shot through brush. If you see 'nother buck that big, I'd let 'em have it.. Good luck next year.

[high country]

  High,

So the shots you missed went where? 

I'll let you know when I miss some day.


you better come out to the coyote tourney and we can have a little "shoot off"

[high country]

I really get a kick out of the comments about only shooting through brush at big bucks.......nice guys, nice.

[shag]

Thanks for the invite.    But I live to darn far away.  A good friend of mine and his son from N. Spokane will be there..   Beside that I hate seeing a grown man whine.  See I'd win.  Why?  Cause that one blade of stubble thats in the way ain't gonna stop me from shooting!!

[high country]

I'll be happy to give you a free 200yds if you can't make it this far you name any place you want. My only request is that we can shoot at least 1500 yds safely. got a pair?

[shag]

1500 yds?  I got a pair you wanta see them?

[high country]

sorry for the hijack fella's, I'll take it to the general discussion......c'mon over shag

[edmondshunter]

I hunt muzzle loader on occasion and I think you made the right choice.  Close or not, with a non-jacketed lead bullet from a muzz, even @ 400+ gr, I think its risky.  Modern cartridges are core bonded, jacketed, controlled expansion, ect. .  Sabot's, maxi-balls, ball rounds, just arent on the same level as a modern cartridge. 

Point #2 -  With a muzz, the round is slowing down as it leaves the barrel, opposite of the mod firearm.  Deflection is uncontrolable at any distance with a lower velocity/ft.lbs, and un-controlled expansion its even harder to put a perfect shot on anything behind brush

I heard a story in Whitefish Mt. about a muzz hunter that tried to shoot through brush at a buck.  He said they filmed it, and when they looked at the footage, he hit the buck in the high shoulder and watch the round trace the spine outside of the skin. Needless to say they didnt take that buck home, they couldnt find blood or the buck, and he had to live with the fact he prob. wounded that buck