Wolf Impacts, WA Wildlife

[bearpaw]

What impacts could wolves have on Caribou, Sheep, Goats, Columbia Whitetail and Humans?......This is what they put in the Draft Wolf Plan....Very interesting to read through the draft itself......

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/diversty/soc/gray_wolf/rev_wolfplan_cleanaug0309.pdf

A few paragraphs taken from Pages 83 through 97.

Line 12, Page 91
As with livestock and ungulates, the extent of wolf-related impacts on non-prey species and ecosystems in Washington will depend on where and how many wolves eventually inhabit the state. Many of the ecological effects of wolves described in this chapter are likely density dependent, with less dense wolf populations creating fewer impacts than populations at carrying capacity (Campbell et al. 2006).

Moose
Numbers of moose in Washington increased from about 60 in 1972 to about 1,500-2,000 in 2007 (S. Zender and H. Ferguson, pers. comm. in WDFW 2008), corresponding to an average annual increase in population size of 9.6-10.5%. This growth is the result of greater moose density in prime habitats and colonization of animals into new areas. Moose primarily occur in Pend Oreille, Spokane, Stevens, and Ferry counties (Figure 11). They are occasionally recorded in Chelan, Lincoln, Whitman, Okanogan, and Whatcom counties, with a few dispersing animals documented in more distant areas. A small colonizing population with about 20-30 animals is also present in the Blue Mountains (Figure 11; P. Wik, pers. comm.). Moose generally occurabove 3,000 feet in elevation (S. Zender, pers. comm.) and prefer dense thickets of willows and other hardwood shrubs that are frequently associated with 15-25-year-old clear cuts or thinnings on mesic sites (Base and Zender 2006). Forest successional conditions in northeastern Washington generally appear to be excellent for moose and will likely remain so over the next few decades, thus moose numbers are expected to continue at current levels or gradually increase for some time. Harvests are currently by permit only and have totaled about 90-100 animals annually in recent years (Base and Zender 2006; D. A. Martorello, unpubl. data). Moose occasionally become a nuisance or create problems for human safety, but agricultural damage has not been reported.

Bighorn Sheep
Washington’s population of bighorn sheep currently numbers about 1,500-1,600 animals distributed in 16 isolated herds distributed in the Cascades, northeastern Washington, and the Blue Mountains (Figure 12; WDFW 2007). Herd size averages about 95 sheep and ranges from about 10 to 275. Populations are stable to increasing in 13 herds and declining in three herds. The statewide population estimate is beneath the desired objective of 1,750-2,130 sheep, which is based on potential habitat capacity (WDFW 2008). Diseases and parasites from domestic sheep are the primary causes for decline (e.g., Fowler and Wik 2006), but many herds are also limited by habitat availability. Harvests are currently by permit only and have totaled about 20-25 animals annually in recent years (D. A. Martorello, unpubl. data).

Mountain Goats
Mountain goat populations have been declining in Washington for many years. Current numbers total about 2,400-3,200 animals, with nearly all populations located in the Cascade and Olympic Mountains (Figure 13; Martorello 2006; C. Rice, pers. comm.). A few populations appear to be stable or slightly increasing, including those in the southern Cascades, along the north shore of Lake Chelan, around Mt. Baker, in the Methow region, and in the Olympics. Historic overharvest, impacts of timber harvest on wintering habitat, degradation and loss of alpine meadows, and increasing human recreational use and disturbance of alpine habitat likely have had the greatest negative impacts on abundance. Hunting opportunity and total harvest have decreased with falling populations. Harvests are currently by permit only and total about 20 goats annually (D. A. Martorello, unpubl. data).

C. Wolves and Listed/Candidate Species
Gray wolves are likely to have few significant adverse impacts on any current federal or state listed (endangered, threatened, sensitive) or candidate species (see Appendix A) in Washington in the foreseeable future, with the possible exception of mountain caribou. Interactions with listed or candidate carnivores and birds of prey (i.e., grizzly bears, lynx, wolverines, fishers, bald eagles, and golden eagles) are briefly discussed in Sections A and B.

Mountain Caribou
Washington’s only population of mountain caribou, the Selkirk Mountains herd, spends most of its time in the British Columbia portion of its range, with members infrequently entering Washington. The herd increased from 33 caribou in 2004 to 46 caribou in 2009. Distribution in Washington is restricted primarily to the Salmo-Priest Wilderness Area in northeastern Pend Oreille County. The area is characterized by high elevations and extensive closed canopy forests, and therefore supports relatively low densities of other ungulate species. Hence, few wolves are expected to reside in the Salmo-Priest, meaning that predation on caribou would probably occur infrequently. Nevertheless, any wolf-related losses to the herd would have a significant impact on the population.

Recent declines of woodland caribou populations in British Columbia have been linked to the expansion of moose and the subsequent increase of wolves, which has resulted in greater predation on caribou (Wittmer et al. 2005, Stotyn et al. 2007). To reduce the threat of predation, woodland caribou attempt to isolate themselves from predators and other more abundant prey species by selecting old forests and alpine areas, and avoiding areas near roads during all seasons (Stotyn et al. 2007). However, loss of mature forests and fragmentation of winter habitat may compromise this strategy. Habitat overlap between caribou and wolves is greatest in the spring and calving season, resulting in increased risk of predation for caribou. Localized reductions of specific wolf packs and other large predators have been used to reduce the impact of predation on mountain caribou populations in the province (G. Mowat, pers. comm.), but regular use of this type of management may carry unacceptable ethical implications for the recovery of rare species in the United States (Wittmer et al. 2005).

Columbian White-Tailed Deer
In Washington, Columbian white-tailed deer occur along the lower Columbia River in Wahkiakum and Cowlitz counties (Figure 10). The population in Washington numbers about 600-800 animals and is generally located near human habitation. Predation levels on this subspecies by wolves are difficult to predict, but could potentially harm this deer’s recovery in the state.

A. Human Safety
Wild wolves generally fear people and rarely pose a threat to human safety. Attacks on humans by wolves are quite rare compared to those by other species. Since about 1950, wolves are known to have killed nine people in Europe (where current wolf numbers total about 10,000-20,000), eight in Russia (about 40,000 wolves), and possibly one in North America (about 60,000 wolves) (Linnell et al. 2002, Boitani 2003, NPS 2003, McNay 2007; P. Paquet, unpubl. data); injuries have also been extremely rare. Human deaths have also been reported in India, where conditions have deprived wolves of wild prey and livestock is heavily guarded (Fritts et al. 2003). By comparison, domestic dogs in the United States are responsible for 4.7 million bites resulting in 500,000-800,000 hospital visits and 15-20 fatalities per year (Sacks et al. 1996, Centers of Disease Control 2003). Dogs also are the single most important vector for the transmission of rabies to humans (Moore et al. 2000).

[NWBREW]

That was an interesting read;  thanks for posting that Bearpaw

[denali]

Mountain caribou  - "Localized reductions of specific wolf packs and other large predators have been used to reduce the impact of predation on mountain caribou populations in the province (G. Mowat, pers. comm.), but regular use of this type of management may carry unacceptable ethical implications for the recovery of rare species in the United States (Wittmer et al. 2005). "

I was hoping that the imminent threat to a species would bring some balance to the number of wolves in this State, but if i read the above paragraph correctly.... I would be wrong        seems to me the plight of the caribou needs more attention ,time and resources in Wash. and Idaho than the wolves?

[wolfbait]

Mountain caribou  - "Localized reductions of specific wolf packs and other large predators have been used to reduce the impact of predation on mountain caribou populations in the province (G. Mowat, pers. comm.), but regular use of this type of management may carry unacceptable ethical implications for the recovery of rare species in the United States (Wittmer et al. 2005). "

I was hoping that the imminent threat to a species would bring some balance to the number of wolves in this State, but if i read the above paragraph correctly.... I would be wrong        seems to me the plight of the caribou needs more attention ,time and resources in Wash. and Idaho than the wolves?

The wolf plan is the result of Defenders of Special Agendas, stacked with pro-wolf people, why would you expect anything else. The wolf is their main tool at this time and the WDFW are following along like sheep led to the slaughtering pens. This isn't a wolf plan, it is just another report lined with bias on how they will shove the wolves down our throats. Nothing will get in the way of the wolves, this has already been proven in the other states where game herds are being decimated and no control measures have been implemented.

[wolfbait]

Just a thought, But isn't there some way we could appeal their bias wolf plan? The imput people are stacked? The people who are writing the wolf plan will benifit from what they write it as. Conflict of interest?

[bearpaw]

The Draft Wolf Plan was put together by the WDFW Wolf Group and the Dept. The plan language is biased because the wolf working group was weighted heavily with pro-wolfers. If you read more pages than what I posted it is easy to see how they are manipulating people to think wolves will fit right in. "Defenders" is in so tight with WDFW that their links are on WDFW wolf pages and they are influencing the plan language.

The Plan will have to be adopted by the Wildlife Commission before it becomes law, thus the reason to write letters or messages to elected officials, civic leaders, and the wildlife commissioners now. Once the plan is adopted, then we are all stuck with the plan.

If anyone wants to try and make a difference, take 15 minutes and write an email message and send it to all the email addresses on this link:
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,31831.0.html

I doubt anything can be done once the plan is approved....

[Elkaholic daWg]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Big-green-machine-feeds-off-you-8319805-62870832.html



Does it make you feel better to know you are paying for both sides? NOT me!

[wolfbait]

Quite the eye opener, dandy article Elkaholic daWg,,We are paying them to destroy our hunting,,,,among other things.......

[bearpaw]

Elkaholic daWg...thanks for the post, that is good information...

[carpsniperg2]

great read but my vote stil stands

NUKE THE WOLVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

[goat]

Mountain caribou  - "Localized reductions of specific wolf packs and other large predators have been used to reduce the impact of predation on mountain caribou populations in the province (G. Mowat, pers. comm.), but regular use of this type of management may carry unacceptable ethical implications for the recovery of rare species in the United States (Wittmer et al. 2005). "

I was hoping that the imminent threat to a species would bring some balance to the number of wolves in this State, but if i read the above paragraph correctly.... I would be wrong        seems to me the plight of the caribou needs more attention ,time and resources in Wash. and Idaho than the wolves?

The wolf plan is the result of Defenders of Special Agendas, stacked with pro-wolf people, why would you expect anything else. The wolf is their main tool at this time and the WDFW are following along like sheep led to the slaughtering pens. This isn't a wolf plan, it is just another report lined with bias on how they will shove the wolves down our throats. Nothing will get in the way of the wolves, this has already been proven in the other states where game herds are being decimated and no control measures have been implemented.

Negative evidence is not evidence.Please provide positive evidence in your premise not just outlandish claims.

[PolarBear]

[mulehunter]

LOL I need several of this sticker!

Mulehunter 

[wolfbait]

Mountain caribou  - "Localized reductions of specific wolf packs and other large predators have been used to reduce the impact of predation on mountain caribou populations in the province (G. Mowat, pers. comm.), but regular use of this type of management may carry unacceptable ethical implications for the recovery of rare species in the United States (Wittmer et al. 2005). "

I was hoping that the imminent threat to a species would bring some balance to the number of wolves in this State, but if i read the above paragraph correctly.... I would be wrong        seems to me the plight of the caribou needs more attention ,time and resources in Wash. and Idaho than the wolves?

The wolf plan is the result of Defenders of Special Agendas, stacked with pro-wolf people, why would you expect anything else. The wolf is their main tool at this time and the WDFW are following along like sheep led to the slaughtering pens. This isn't a wolf plan, it is just another report lined with bias on how they will shove the wolves down our throats. Nothing will get in the way of the wolves, this has already been proven in the other states where game herds are being decimated and no control measures have been implemented.

Negative evidence is not evidence.Please provide positive evidence in your premise not just outlandish claims.

Goat lets hear some of pro-wolf ideas? Tell us how many wolves Washington needs? Tell us How many deer 15 bp's will eat per month? Did Defnders of wildlife send you on here?? Thought so...

[Ray]

goat is not coming back.

[wolfbait]

He left? So soon!  It was probably his turn to feed the wolves anyway.

[denali]

http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/info/archieve/newspapers/viewnews.cfm?ID=6046

Federal and State agencies busier than ever

not a long article and worth the the time too read, maps out were we are heading I'm afraid.  


An analysis from Montana's 2003 wolf management plan puts the state's annual cost for wolves in the $907,000 to $948,000 range. That includes about $456,000 for wildlife biologists, operations and monitoring; $157,000 for an enforcement staff and operations; $54,000 for conservation education; $50,000 for fiscal, legal and administration costs; $50,000 for proactive, preventative efforts; and $100,000 for depredation and predator control. Another $40,000 to $81,000 is estimated to be needed to pay for livestock compensation.

"Everybody is worried about the money, and that's a fair question and a conundrum for all of us to be thinking about and to get our arms around," Carolyn Sime, Montana's wolf coordinator, said last week. "License revenue, in the end, is not going to match what we have been spending on average in Montana."

[bearpaw]

good information denali....thanks

[old cracker]

Hello all, I hope October was a good month for you. This wolf push by the wolf lovers has been a source of irritation to me for years. Most of us old timers saw this crap coming when the gov first started talking up the reintroduction of the wolf.
It took our fore fathers a lot of years to ride the west of that piece of vermin (wolf). The deck is stacked against common sense in dealing with the wolf, too many people earning a living by perpetrating the need for the wolf and the courts are all too eager to rule in favor of this perpetration. Now that most are awake to the true threat, we should monitor the politicians ( local/state/federal) that help in this wolf push and mike sure the world know what a nut they are and so them the power of the vote.
Thanks, Old cracker

[Gringo31]

Did anyone go to the Seattle meeting?  The Richland one was very anti wolf.  Just curious how Seattle went.

[wolfbait]

http://saveelk.com/wolf_039.htm

[Little Dave]

Did anyone go to the Seattle meeting?  The Richland one was very anti wolf.  Just curious how Seattle went.

Sure, I went.  The Seattle meeting was a wolf love fest. 
Myself and a few members of the Washington Cattlemen's Association spoke from a standpoint of science, economics and safety.  Most of the rest of the comments were emotional and expressing a want for wolves rather than a need for wolves.  Here's some notes that I took:
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,37417.msg441084.html#msg441084

[wolfbait]

Washington could be the state that breaks the wolves back. Bangs said that wolves did not need to be reintroduced in every state. That being said, Washington with its lack of plenty of open space, more people, people who like to come to the country to, hike, hunt, fish, cross country ski,, that may be a problem with a wolf that has no fear of man kind. Wolves that have not been hunted for over 14 years,  protected by the endangered joke list.hmmmm, I don't think anyone on Wa. Hunting would enjoy seeing the head lines read: Wolves killed Three Cross Country Skiers Today in the Methow VAlley. But maybe then the real story would come out about the wolves. What would the pro-wolf people say then???

  *censored* we need to run that warm cuddly wolf pup thing agin,,, -------------

[wolfbait]

Historically and prehistorically moose were absent from most of western North America and eastern Canada, as well. Even in Alaska, moose were historically limited to a few, very remote areas. Since European settlement, however, moose numbers have exploded, as has the area occupied by those animals. There are more moose in North America today than at anytime in the last 12,000 years, except for the 1950’s-60’s when predator control was widespread and effective. Historically, caribou numbers were low and those animals so widely spaced that they could support only a few or no wolves. The addition of alternative prey, though, has allowed wolves to increase and the wolves then drive the more vulnerable caribou ever downward. That is to say, the addition of moose did not buffer, or reduce, predation pressure on caribou but instead increased predation on caribou, the exact opposite of what most people would predict.

That, however, is not the most intriguing part. Why were moose absent historically and prehistorically? According to Dr. Bergerud, moose, and to a lesser extent whitetails, have expanded in numbers and range due to climatic change and/or logging. In this, though, Bergerud erred. First, the expansion of moose occurred well before any global warming that may have occurred and second, based on fire-history studies there has always been a significant amount of the browse favored by moose and whitetails. Instead, as I have explained elsewhere, (see Kay, C.E. 1997. Aboriginal Overkill and the Biogeography of Moose in Western North America. Alces 33:141-164), native hunters extirpated moose over large areas, which allowed woodland and mountain caribou to persist. As native hunting declined, moose populations expanded, followed by wolves.

Two of the woodland caribou herds in most rapid decline lie not in Alberta’s heavily logged boreal forests, but rather in the remote wilderness of Canada’s Banff and Jasper National Parks. Why are caribou headed towards extinction in two national parks where there is no logging or other development? Wolves! Wolves that are maintained at too high a density by unnaturally large numbers of elk. Elk, that like moose, were historically kept at very low levels by native hunters. There are more elk on western ranges today than at anytime since the last glaciation.

All this has led Dr. Bergerud to conclude that there are only two ways to keep mountain and woodland caribou from going extinct. You either have to significantly reduce wolves or significantly reduce the number of moose or whitetails where the latter occur. Here we need to note that other studies have shown that wolves and bears routinely keep moose populations at only 10% or less of what the habitat would support in the absence of predation. Even at those low moose densities, though, there are still more than enough wolves to drive woodland and mountain caribou to extinction. So, if we were to significantly reduce the number of wolves, we would not only save the caribou, but we would also have more moose, which is a key issue among subsistence hunters in Alaska and the far north.

As I have explained in my previous articles on predation, all this is of critical importance to mule deer and mule deer hunters because the same thing, termed apparent or predator meditated competition, occurs with elk and mule deer. By preying mostly on the elk, wolves can/will take the more vulnerable mule deer to exceedingly low levels or extinction. The wolves that were turned loose in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming have preyed primarily on elk and there are data on how many elk each wolf kills per year––22 elk/wolf/year––but there is little data from those states or anywhere else on the effect of wolf predation on mule deer. To put it simply, mule deer decline so rapidly that there is nothing left to study!

Hunter harvest of black-tailed deer on Vancouver Island though, gives some idea of what will happen if pro-wolf advocates have their way. Before wolves arrived, sportsmen on Vancouver Island took home around 25,000 blacktails a year. Now that wolves have overrun the island, the figure has plummeted to less than 4,000 deer a year. Moreover, blacktails are now found in reasonable abundance only where they live in suburbs or cities; i.e., the deer have moved into towns to avoid predators.

And that is not the end of the bad news. Dr. Scott Creel, a professor at Montana State University, recently published a study in Science on predation risk and elk reproductive physiology. According to that research, elk in the Yellowstone ecosystem are being harassed by wolves to such a degree that pregnant cows are aborting or reabsorbing their unborn calves. Even studies of oil and gas development on winter ranges have never shown this level of harassment. If humans chased wildlife around the way wolves do, the humans would be in jail.

http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2008/09/05/wolf-predation-more-bad-news/

[wildebeast]

It will be a sad day if and when the wolves get into western WA, with all the brush they will never be able to keep under control.  I have seen what the cougars are doing to some areas where I have been studying the wildlife for years with my game cameras and it has been a rapid reduction in deer and the elk have been moving closer to humans for safety.

The only way we have a chance to slow down the wolves is for all the hunters to threaten to boycott buying hunting license, this will cut the money and make them consider the results of wolves in WA.  I know they are here already but must keep them out of western WA.

cliff

[Little Dave]

The only way we have a chance to slow down the wolves is for all the hunters to threaten to boycott buying hunting license, this will cut the money and make them consider the results of wolves in WA.

Well I don't agree that it is the only way.  In fact, this is what the PETA types would promote.

On the contrary, if substantially more people showed interest in deer and elk tags the department be motivated to preserve that revenue stream.  Simple supply/demand economics.  I figure most DFW biologists like their jobs, at least the state benefit packages, and will do what it takes to preserve their career.  This means maintaining supply for their revenue stream.

[alecvg]

Interesting read, thanks bearpaw!

[wildebeast]

Well, if you think buying more tags and filling the state coffers with more money will give you more power on the impact of wolves in our state, keep dreaming.  I will not give them a dime of my money for the support of wolves.

The hunters on here complain about wolves and yet they won't even start a petition to the state threatening to boycott the purchase of license and tags for a year to get attention on wolves on the west side.  If you don't, then you will get wolves and your money will help pay for them and their food.

I do hope you can find a way to solve the problem, but with the state in the red for money now would be the best time to squeeze them into believing they will loose more money next year.

Good luck

[mulehunter]

Well, if you think buying more tags and filling the state coffers with more money will give you more power on the impact of wolves in our state, keep dreaming.  I will not give them a dime of my money for the support of wolves.

The hunters on here complain about wolves and yet they won't even start a petition to the state threatening to boycott the purchase of license and tags for a year to get attention on wolves on the west side.  If you don't, then you will get wolves and your money will help pay for them and their food.

I do hope you can find a way to solve the problem, but with the state in the red for money now would be the best time to squeeze them into believing they will loose more money next year.

Good luck

  Thats what I told people about this.  Hunting Season Book just showed that INCREASE more PERMITS plus u still have to buy COMBO tags anyway. Probablly 50 Percent INCREASE PROFITS busniess for WDFW this year 2009-2010 Next year will be little HARDER for ANYONE as HUNTER to fill tag!
I Blame on WDFW for CHEAT on putting MORE Permits to get MORE money from all hunters. Plus Cougars closed to Most of us with out telling us and we dont expecting cougars closing after permit applied. Big LOSS for Deer Population will be HURT now before Next year.
Wolves are killing more everyday.
WILDEBEAST are right. We MUST CONTROL WDFW by OUR TAGS Money!  
Next year five in our family will NOT BUY TAGS. By the way that I am not LOUSY hunter. I am AWSOME HUNTER as everyone!  I Just dont want to SUPPORT WDFW Program No more until they OPEN TO WOLVES TAG!
 

Mulehunter  

[wolfbait]

At first I thought, hell no I won't be pushed out of huntin, but after this year in the Methow.  The only huntin I will be doing is predator. No more deer tags, no elk tags, only bear, cougar and, well you don't need a tag for the rest. 

[Little Dave]

I can understand a reactive boycott such as when the elk and deer populations decline... don't get a license for lack of opportunity.  We'll all be doing that.

A boycott right now (particularly without a letter) will at best be misinterpreted as your personal cost cutting choice.  There are over 200,000 hunters in the state.  You've got to have a better plan if you want to make a difference.

One way to get money to go for programs other than wolves is to form a foundation.  Provide funds to the department in the form of grants but designate as a contingency that none of the money can be used for wolf-related programs.  This would be the other half of the boycott idea.  My assumption is that the money you presently have earmarked for hunting licenses in the current year is part of your unending personal commitment to wildlife conservation.

[Special T]

LD i understand you desire to use the carrot and the stick approach by guiding the dept in the right direction. I think however  that you are right that we need to tell them in letter form and then with our pocket book. I will only buy my deer elk tags next year and spend much more time coyote hunting. when the fox is guarding the hen house, they can find a way to manipulate funds to accomplish their agenda.. 

[wolfbait]

I don't think it will take to long for the wolves to clean WA out. I also think it won't be to long before there are alot of people not hunting deer or elk, not because they are taking a stand but because there won't be enough to feed the wolves and hunters both, and the wolves will get first pick. WDFW are lying when they say we are just now starting wolf recovery. Washington was starting wolf recovery as far back as the 1980's. So now with  defenders of wildlife running the wolf show, how much of a chance is there for any honesty concerning how many wolves  Washington ends up with?

[M.Tumlinson]

What the hell?! There's moose in Washington? I swear I'm always the last to find out about these things lol.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Washington wildlife will be fine.  The WDFW is going to manage wolves (one way or another) because, as much as some of you don't want to admit it, they are wildlife and they belong do here.  The only questions left to answer are how many, where, and what tools will be used to manage them.  Wolves existance in Washington is not a question- it's happening and they will continue to repopulate the state despite the redneck sss agenda.  So, right now is your opportunity to make a difference with well written and intelligent comments to the WDFW in regard to the wolf plan. 

I underline well 'written and intelligent' because I presume that alarmist idiocy will get tossed pretty quick. 

[wolfbait]

Washington wildlife will be fine.  The WDFW is going to manage wolves (one way or another) because, as much as some of you don't want to admit it, they are wildlife and they belong do here.  The only questions left to answer are how many, where, and what tools will be used to manage them. despite the redneck sss agenda.  So, right now is your opportunity to make a difference with well written and intelligent comments to the WDFW in regard to the wolf plan.  

I underline well 'written and intelligent' because I presume that alarmist idiocy will get tossed pretty quick.  

The wolves are here and we have had wolves since the 1980's, thats a fact. Whether  Washington needed MORE imported Canadian wolves is another story. You do know that wolves do not have to be restored to every state don't you. Bangs said so himself. The big question is when will wdfw start telling the truth. The wdfw bring their lies to the wolf meetings, don't they know that the people are not going into wolf management in Washington blind. We have seen what has happened in the other state, we know what the wolves will do to our big game herds. We know about the relist/delist joke. You want us to trust people who point blank lie to our faces.  They know we know they are lying, and they just keep lying, now that takes some gutts, but wait, who is running the show? As far as the 3-sss, if Washington doesn't get a plan that the people can live with, then the people will be managing the wolves, just like in the other states.


I underline well 'written and intelligent' because I presume that alarmist idiocy will get tossed pretty quick.  

Alarmist idiocy, really wacoyote, The people who are sincerely conserned about what the wolves have done to their hunting in other states and what they will do to Washington have written letters that are outstanding. Once again you sell people short.

[WAcoyotehunter]

The wolves are here and we have had wolves since the 1980's, thats a fact. Whether  Washington needed MORE imported Canadian wolves is another story. You do know that wolves do not have to be restored to every state don't you. Bangs said so himself. The big question is when will wdfw start telling the truth. The wdfw bring their lies to the wolf meetings, don't they know that the people are not going into wolf management in Washington blind. We have seen what has happened in the other state, we know what the wolves will do to our big game herds. We know about the relist/delist joke. You want us to trust people who point blank lie to our faces.  They know we know they are lying, and they just keep lying, now that takes some gutts, but wait, who is running the show? As far as the 3-sss, if Washington doesn't get a plan that the people can live with, then the people will be managing the wolves, just like in the other states.

Wolves are State listed as well...they will need to be delisted here before we can do anything.

Tell me about these "imported canadian wolves" you keep mentioning.  how much does one weigh?  How much does the alpha male in the lookout pack weigh?

The $1000 bets still stand- show me proof that the WDFW has released wolves... or show me all these packs you know about...  finding the packs would be a boon for state management (and for you-$1000). If you're really interesting in helping you would share that information, unless of course, they simply do not exist.

If wolves have been here for so long and they are so bad for wildlife- how do you explain the current prey population being as high as they are?  Shouldn't the wolves have eaten them already?

[wolfbait]

The wolves are here and we have had wolves since the 1980's, thats a fact. Whether  Washington needed MORE imported Canadian wolves is another story. You do know that wolves do not have to be restored to every state don't you. Bangs said so himself. The big question is when will wdfw start telling the truth. The wdfw bring their lies to the wolf meetings, don't they know that the people are not going into wolf management in Washington blind. We have seen what has happened in the other state, we know what the wolves will do to our big game herds. We know about the relist/delist joke. You want us to trust people who point blank lie to our faces.  They know we know they are lying, and they just keep lying, now that takes some gutts, but wait, who is running the show? As far as the 3-sss, if Washington doesn't get a plan that the people can live with, then the people will be managing the wolves, just like in the other states.

Wolves are State listed as well...they will need to be delisted here before we can do anything.

Tell me about these "imported canadian wolves" you keep mentioning.  how much does one weigh?  How much does the alpha male in the lookout pack weigh?

The $1000 bets still stand- show me proof that the WDFW has released wolves... or show me all these packs you know about...  finding the packs would be a boon for state management (and for you-$1000). If you're really interesting in helping you would share that information, unless of course, they simply do not exist.

If wolves have been here for so long and they are so bad for wildlife- how do you explain the current prey population being as high as they are?  Shouldn't the wolves have eaten them already?

Well swifty, if you lived in the Methow you would know what the wolves have already done to our deer herd. How are you going to explain a very large wolf population in the next two years? Will you be then saying that the Canadian wolves that were released in Washington, find the air so refreshing that they multiplied 200%.

As far as the wolf info. we have right now it will be going to people who can use it to help get delisted right away, these are wolf packs that WDFW already know about, but are settin on it. When we get done everyone will know. You will just have to wait a bit longer like everyone else. Your buddies at WDFW and defenders of bullsh$it are going to have a little explaining to do.

As far as the prey population being high as you say, how would you know what the prey population is? Are you going by what s.fitkin says?

You are fighting for the wolf every way you know how. You can't give one good reason why wolves should be in Wa. All you ever do is try to steer the wolf talks into, we need to just manage better. When the wolves get done in Washington, there won't be anything left to manage.

As far as any bet with you, we already went through that a while back, or did you forget already. You need to open your eyes and your mind, visit http://washingtonwolf.info/ and saveelk,com  ,,, Read up on what the wolves have done in other states. Then trot back and tell us everything you have learned. We will be waiting!!!

[WAcoyotehunter]

Well swifty, if you lived in the Methow you would know what the wolves have already done to our deer herd. How are you going to explain a very large wolf population in the next two years? Will you be then saying that the Canadian wolves that were released in Washington, find the air so refreshing that they multiplied 200%.

As far as the wolf info. we have right now it will be going to people who can use it to help get delisted right away, these are wolf packs that WDFW already know about, but are settin on it. When we get done everyone will know. You will just have to wait a bit longer like everyone else. Your buddies at WDFW and defenders of bullsh$it are going to have a little explaining to do.

As far as the prey population being high as you say, how would you know what the prey population is? Are you going by what s.fitkin says?

You are fighting for the wolf every way you know how. You can't give one good reason why wolves should be in Wa. All you ever do is try to steer the wolf talks into, we need to just manage better. When the wolves get done in Washington, there won't be anything left to manage.

As far as any bet with you, we already went through that a while back, or did you forget already. You need to open your eyes and your mind, visit http://washingtonwolf.info/ and saveelk,com  ,,, Read up on what the wolves have done in other states. Then trot back and tell us everything you have learned. We will be waiting!!!

I can't remember the outcome of the last bet discussion- was it you deferring to the option becasue you didn't have the evidence and it would trounce your blathering about conspiricies and white vans?  A 200% population growth would be pretty simple for two animals. 

I'm not fighting for the wolf, I'm fighting for logical management of the wolf.  Extirpation is not an option, so I'm interested in seeing a plan that works for prey and predator species. 

If you want to save an elk or deer- spray some weeds, help with a controlled burn, help close a road...

[dontgetcrabs]

[/quote]
  If you want to save an elk or deer- spray some weeds, help with a controlled burn, help close a road...
[/quote]

OR...... Don't support introducing wolves into Washington!   

[wolfbait]

Its time for your nap wacoyote.

[WAcoyotehunter]

I think it's time for you to remove your tinfoil helmet and recognize that conspiricy theories and BS will not make a difference in the states wolf management.  Put together a logical and defensable argument and you could be taken seriously.

Dontgetcrabs...there has not been any introduction, nor has there been a plan for one...

[wolfbait]

I think it's time for you to remove your tinfoil helmet and recognize that conspiricy theories and BS will not make a difference in the states wolf management.  Put together a logical and defensable argument and you could be taken seriously.

Dontgetcrabs...there has not been any introduction, nor has there been a plan for one...

I support the minority plan. You are probably right wdfw can lie till they get caught, which might not be to far away.

[Little Dave]

Extirpation is not an option. 

Extirpation is not an option being considered in the current plan.

Since the outcome of the experiment is not known, matters of finance tentative, this plan seems to have more potential for failure than for success.  Worst case scenarios are realistic to expect.  Therefore, extirpation may be an option if some future remedial plan is needed.

[mulehunter]

First of all..... HOW CAN THIS FIRST PACK WOLVES CHOOSE TO ROOT IN TO McClurre MT area after I spotted in Early Spring 07  then more and more that I learned a lot more better and saw them on ROAD! I dont know how to EXPLAIN to you that NO ONE SEEN them UNTIL may 08 thur July 08 then More witness and more witness.. after Pack was confirmed by WDFW, SO Lets me explain about Between Spring 07, Maybe WDFW DID released them.  Hard part is this Wolves get uncomfortable at Early Spring 07 and later they start to learn how to be comfortable in this mountain of McClurre mt.

If Wolves arrival from Canadian Border, THERE WILL BE MORE WITNESS Between Border Canadan toward to South Twisp and WHY ARE WE ALL NEVER HEAR ONE WORD BY ANY PEOPLE from Spring 07 thur May 08 I dont hear ANY ONE see or NO ONE HEAR HOWLING a Fking one WOLF between Spring 07 until then When I first posted a WOLVES IN WA past Dec 07 on this Hunting-washington with evidences of mine pics and EVERYONE LAUGH AT ME CALLING ME ALL BSING!!!!    So I leave it alone until July 08 proved by WDFW and I was right after I waitted. I dont understand why they move DOWN THUR Brooth Canyon and Eldor Canyon instead not staying up North Hart Pass or North of Wintrop.  

OBVIOULY WDFW DID RELEASED WOLVES below Wintrop Or North Carlton!

I have HARD time believe this about this.  I am POSTIVE WDFW RELEASED WOLVES IN OKANAGON COUNTY!  I cant describe how Packs has already stay in this country for ONCE and NEVER MOVED for two half years now. ALWAYS STAY SAME AREA for long time! If there is TWO River between Wintrop and Twisp also Chelan lake, How can they got here that QUICK and NO ESCAPE!

I suggest you people to PUSH THEM TO PUT FOR LIE TEST! I remember Diamond Pack was captured by Biologlist and Gamefish people evidenced Pictured and show public and very helpful and it was from Idaho that travel thur Coville and stopped before Covillee river!! But I dont remember they Captured First Pack with no Pictures of Biologlist and Gamefish in it. Maybe they are WORRIED someone may witnessed them released with MATCH Wolves in pictures only pictures I see is TrailCamera and it doesnt show COLLAR ON IT because Maybe they dont want to show it clearly side of wolf that may show collar I only see only face wolf in WDFW Picture. Who got TrailCamera pic of Collar before july 08

Maybe they LIED that they already CAPTURED July 08 but they may have a CONTROL by VHS which already on Collar before you knew anything and they added GPS after to make it look SMOOTH!
NO PICTURE EVIDENCED ANYWHERE OBVIOULY THEY ARE HIDING FROM YOU PEOPLE!

Thats Explains why Scott Fitkin is TRYING HARD to call this all Wolf NOT KILL ANY livestock in this county of Okanagon!
No picture NOTHING pictures from Captured by group on first pack of Wolves in Wa. but only TrailCamera that they ever post in Newspaper! NOT ENOUGH!
But Dimaond Pack DID SHOW EVERYTHING to PUBLIC!



Mulehunter