If You Were To Give An Elk Seminar?

[Elknut1]

  It appears that there are many elk hunters dedicated to this Forum. That's very commendable! I have a question for you guys here. If you were giving a Seminar on Elk Hunting, what would you give one on?

  Think about it. It would be something you may know about or that you feel others really needed to know in order to help them be better elk hunters. Even if you don't know much about a subject, what is it if you had the knowledge that you feel is a subject not discussed enough that would better most hunters in their endeavors to be better elk hunters? This can apply to both Bowhunters & Rifle hunters. Getting a great draw area certainly helps but cannot be counted on so what is it others need to know to aid them in consistent success in the elkwoods?
  Your answer need not be long but what's missing at many of these Seminars?

  ElkNut/Paul

[WDFW-SUX]

Its pretty cool your lurking on this forum I have a great deal of respect for you level of elk Knowledge.  I hope you stick around so we can pick your brain about you unbelievable level of elk smarts.

The one thing that I really like in an elk seminar is when the person gives examples of cow call sequencing and at what point in the encounter to use the different noises / tones. 

The biggest thing that I have had problems with over the years  is getting a bull too close the distance gap between 65 yards to under 50.  Someone who can demonstrate effective tricks/ techniques on calling for bulls solo would be worth there wait in gold IMHO.

By the way what units are you hunting Rosies in this year?

[boneaddict]

(answering his question...not replying to you at all Passion)
I think there is too much emphasis on calling.  Also , most topics seem to be the ideal situation, where you might be alone in the woods, on private land somewhere in some super elk mecca where big bulls are rip roarin hot.  Not your typical hunting situation.

elk behaviors, how they react to pressure, more true case scenerio in hunting.  Course that would give everyone "my" edge, so I probably would talk about elk calling.

[PolarBear]

I totally agree with Bone on calling.  My philosophy is tone down the calling and be as quiet, stealth and scent free as possible.  Bugles should be used sparingly and only as a locator and not to draw them to you, mainly on heavily hunted public land. I see too many folks just standing on the side of a road blowing the crap out of a bugle and moving on when nothing screams back at them.  I got a kick out of watching guys buying bugles at Cabela's for late archery.  I also believe that more emphasis needs to be on hunting timber instead of parking on a clearcut and hoping that something will magically appear.  Hunting big timber can be pretty tough but pay off big time especially when there is hard hunting pressure.  Finally, you don't have to rely on drawing a special permit to bag a big bull, it is usually just a matter of a little homework and actually getting out of your rig and moving through the woods.

[Ironhead]

Bone and P-bear I respect you opinions, but my opinion is just the opposite as far as calling. You don't have to be on private ground or in an Elk mecca to make calling an advantage. Calling in lightly pressured areas (remote)
works well and should be a weapon in the arsenal of all Elk hunters. The obvious, wind in your face and as scent free as possible should be in the same bag , but calling in big smelly rutting bulls is big fun and effective in the right situations. I would not call bugleing off the side of a well traveled road calling I would call that educating the Elk.
 I  also like to watch undisturbed Elk behavior, and learn what the sounds they are making might mean. This is where Elknut can help those that don't know, he can explain what that sound means in a certain situatuion and how to use it to your advantage. I would bet Elknut is a lot like you Bone, in that he knows the animals in his woods, his photo gallery speaks for itself.
 As far as seminar material, I like to hear about what works for other people. When to call when not to call.The meaning of different Elk sounds. What makes you Successful in your area, just to name a few.

[Bigshooter]

I have been told a lot about elk hunting and think I know a little, but you don't really learn a lot until you are out in the woods.
So I would tell people to go hunting.  And spend time in the woods watching elk. That is when you really learn.

[high country]

My advice is this, recognize the fact that all elk are individuals and do what they want, when they want. a coyote that has been shot at from a car will run as soon as a car stops, an elk that has responded to the call to be harassed does also not forget. in wa we have way more elk hunters than the land can carry and the elk are concentrated in relativley small areas, so calling in wa, is often more harm then good. a coyote will respond to mating howls even if it has nearly cost him his life, but only during the exact right time of year.....elk are similar. I would encourage every washington elk hunter to know what elk like to eat, and key in on that, but really anything else can change like the weather.

find the food and water.

locate cover and travel areas.

be prepared for many more elk than you see, they tend to be herd critters

be prepared for them to change their mind and screw it all up at the last second.

that is my advice.

[lemondog]

I have taken 2 PnY class bulls here in WA by scouting travel patterns and placing treestands. Getting totally sent free and then Mewing from the stand. It can work out very well. It is a lot like hunting whitetail bucks but much warmer!!!

[Elknut1]

  Passion, thank you for the kind words, I really appreciate the support there!
   You'd love the Seminars then, I always do a segment on "Hung-Up Bulls" Why they do this & how to combat it. That is one of my favorite subjects for sure! (grin) Great idea you have there! I'm not sure of the unit for the Rosies, I just know it's about 30 miles from the coast & not sure of where that is either, there's another hunter who's setting it up.

  Boneaddict & PolarBear, I can certainly understand your feelings on calling, many these days are mis-using calls & overcalling for sure, I would not disagree with that at all. This is one good reason why it's so important to educate elk hunters & not educate the elk. So many times it's the opposite! I firmly believe & practice that to be a complete "elk hunter" you must be a versatile one. This means you should be able to handle any encounter with elk you may come across, this doesn't mean you will kill every elk you come in contact with but your odds will be better than not knowing what to do. A complete hunter should be a very good caller, he should know what sounds mean what, he should have a good idea what elk are saying or asking, he should be aware of elk sounds that require response/aid from other elk, he should know when not to call in varying encounters, he should be willing to adapt to any & all encounters that will give him the best odds for a given situation. He needs to know when to be aggressive, he needs to understand what makes elk tick! Not all encounters require calling.

  If a hunter is one dimensional he is missing out on one heck of a lot of opportunities & will not know what to do on many encounters that elk escape because of a lack of knowledge in different aspects of hunting elk.

  Let me give you a couple of examples.I'm referring to hunting elk in Aug-Sept-Oct, as this is the most popular times. Pre-rut--Peak-rut--Post-rut. Say you're a Spot & Stalk type of hunter, you spot a herd with a decent bull in it he can either be the only bull or there could be some sattelites hanging around the herd. You get to a spot where they're headed in an attempt to ambush this herd, you know the herd is still behind & to your left 200yds as you heard the bull minutes before. You come through a section of timber & brush to head them off & set a good setup/ambush spot with good wind, just as you round the timber there's 3 cows staring right at you not 40yds away, you stop & sink into the surroundings best you can, you know at least one spotted you & is really rubber necking it in your direction. What are you going to do? If you cow call to try & settle them down do you think they'll buy it? Most likely not, problem is the herd bull is still well behind them, how would a non-caller still get a great opportunity to kill this bull? This is a calling situation or else these elk will bust out of there most likely barking--Game Over--Some chalk that up to, Oh Well that's hunting! When actually they just let go a perfect encounter to bring that herd bull right to them!

  Call & Stalk--I'm sure you've used this as well. You get a bull bugling on his own & indian your way into him, everything is perfect, you're 60yds out & he doesn't have a clue you're there, you're also looking hard for any unseen cows, you don't see any so you slowly slip in trying to get to bowrange, all of a sudden you see a movement & there's a cow up above you that saw you moving, bummer, she bolts, the bull hears her then another runs, man you're so close. Now what?  What's your best chances still of killing that bull, after all you just spent an hour to get where you're at? Should you cow call or should you bugle or what, what is the most fitting sound that you can give that won't raise the "proverbial" red flag in this instance, remember you must act quickly & come up with the right decision!
  When things go right & proper in the 2 instances I mention then great! But when things go array you'd better be ready & have it under control & have the confidence that your next move is the right one!

  I bring up these things because we too only hunt Public Land, no draws, ranches or private areas, all OTC land. Understanding situations & elk sounds definitely comes from experience & being in real life encounters as someone mentioned. The thing is Seminars can help cut the learning curve immensely in these areas & tons others by understanding the many sounds elk make & what they expect to hear under various encounters if you're a real elk. Just a couple things to consider? (grin) By the way, what would you do in those situations?

  ElkNut1

   

 

 

[Coasthunterjay]

I think i would emphasize and instruct people on tracking downed or badly shot animals. I have more than a dozen times gone hunting with guys or friends. WE ALL ARENT PERFECT. and have seen them make questionable shots or just bad shots and have badly wounded the animal. In some situations the animal will die in minutes to hours but sometimes it doesnt. luckly on several situations i was there with a much less educated person and was able to track for them but if i hadnt been with my friends when these situations had happened i now that there would be alot less claimed animals that wouldnt have made it for another day. some people just dont now.....

Personally i dont like loosing animals so i think i would do a seminar on teaching people how to better prepare themselves for the shot they are going to take and how to track there animal in case a poorly placed shot was made......

[Elknut1]

 Bigshooter--Very true! Thing is, can you imagine how many years it would take to be a good elk hunter & successful one consistently taking elk with archery equipment if you were new & there was no info about it all anywhere?  It would take many years of trial & errors as one stumbles through the woods trying to learn on his own. These days we just don't have years, hunters want to be successful to some degree now! There's many ways to measure success. Having a great time & sharing stories to having close encounters are all pluses, but having an elk on the ground is icing on the cake, yet very achievable by taking time to read books, watch elk stuff, listening to others who are willing to share info with you on their methods of success. It's very important for others to "Pass It On"  doing this helps keep elk hunting & other facets of hunting alive & exciting. It gets to the point that one expects to take an elk everytime he goes out, now that's confidence in ones abilities & his knowledge of the animal.
  It doesn't happen of course everytime, but thinking it will shows the right die hard attitude that is needed in elk hunting. Too many are so concerned that if they share with others their knowledge that others may now know what they know & it could cut into their success rate. That's a terrible attitude to manifest. I'll bet at some point in their hunting adventures someone has helped them out in the past, yet they're not willing to share needed info with others. Thing is, if others hunted smart like they are they would actually hunt elk much smarter & not have the tendency to push elk out of areas because of not knowing any better, it could benefit all parties involved. Things to consider!! (grin)

  lemondog--Tresstanding elk is a great way to hunt elk, location,location,location!!!

  High country--Good Points for sure--I find that calling elk is the best way to finding their feeding,bedding,traveling,wallowing areas, etc. But not in the the way most hunters would think, I do this everyear in new or often hunted areas, it doesn't matter. And I can do this in a couple of days not a couple of years! It's all in the sounds you use & when, this will work on the cagiest elk around! Without a doubt the further away from heavily hunted areas you are the better. This doesn't mean there are no elk within a mile of roads because they are, it's all on your approach!!

  Coasthunterjay--Excellent idea!! I will incorporate a segment of that in the upcoming Seminars. Thank You!!

  ElkNut1

[boneaddict]

Excellent point big Shooter.
Ironhead...you are right....
You guys are saying what I meant. TRUST ME, I use calls as part of my arsenal, but I know how to talk to the elk, and use them to my advantage, just as it sound like Elknut does.  Each situation is different and you see how the animals are reacting.  There are so many fools out there that watch a seminar or a show on the tube then run out and buy a call or two and start blowing.  It doesn't work that way. As elknut stated...who is training who.  There are how many million guys out there all with a hoochie Mama strapped to their neck because its easy to "blow"  how many times do you think that bull elk that has been shot at for the last 8 years will be duped by that call.  soooooo "Typical Hunting Situation"  where you have teams of guys moving in on you while calling, the animals are call shy, stuff like that.  It was amazing the success I had in the Gila, while most of the guys were striking out, whining about how call shy the elk were.  As you guys have stated, you just hve to know when you should blow on that thing.   The other advantage I had was that I had a custom cow call in my pocket that none of those animals had heard. 

[high country]

I use an open reed or mouth call alot. I get a kick out of guys, as bone said with department store calls, that use them just like the videos.....it kills me. I suppose if you are dead set on teaching calling and want the audience to truely gain some good intel....teach them that many times bulls will respond to calls that are nothing all that close to elk calls....like the bulls that call back to the trains in the middle of the rifle season. the pressure heats up and the duration of vocalization gets shortened up a bunch. I have seen bulls rip out the quickest little chirp you can imagine. most guys would have sworn it was a bird, or ignored it all together.

All in all I think you have to know your area before you can adopt a calling strategy. I can tell you if you bust out your hoochie mama and primos power bugle anywhere within 50 miles of spokane during the season you will get that real lonely feeling.

I think the where and when dictates the how in calling or not calling.

[Elknut1]

  Very,Very good points guys! The Hoochie Mama/Pack Bugle rage, what else can you say??? (grin) It's so true that the better or more believable caller you are along with knowing when & where to use selective sounds is as big an issue as to being in a good elk area. Once you've located elk you need to know what to do with them. I find hunters who do little to no calling hunt this way for the most part because they're not good or confident at it. Too, there's so much more than calling elk that is involved such as natural elk movement/breaking things in many situations to "make it real". Bottom line here, the "classic bugle" just isn't going to get it done much pass locating them unless you're pulling in a few curious sattelites who don't know you by your sound.

  Bulls-- huff,pant,wheeze,snort,grunt,challenge,locate,chuckle,advertise themselves,cow call,call cows,huffing grunts,bark,nervous/popping grunts,glunk,round-up bugle etc.

  Cows--bark,nervous/poppinig grunts,social cow calls,invite bulls over,alarm chirps,mews,distress mews & whines,separated,lost sounds,pre-estrus whines,bugle,come this way calls,beg/plead,fighting sounds, etc.

  Yes elk make many sounds, key is to know what each sound means & when it's used. Elk know!! (grin) The more your calling fits an encounter the less likely elk are to be timid or very cautious in their approach or just getting a response, yes even in heavily hunted areas, overcalling or not knowing what you're saying is a bigger issue here than anything!

  For instance---You're heading in just before light to your hunting spot & you hear a bugle up ahead still several hundred yds out, do you say, oh there's a bull there, or are you more apt to pay close attention to WHAT he's saying. It will better your odds to know what he's saying so you now what you're going to do next! What if the bull was doing nothing more than calling cows or advertising his location, (do you know that sound) & you come back at him with a bugle followed with several grunts. You just challenged this bull & told him to get out of here he's not welcome. Did you know that? This bull most likely was not looking for a confrontation at all, just some loving! (grin) You blew the whole thing because you didn't understand the situation. More times than not a guy blames calling doesn't work on these bulls or he blames that he bugled way toooo big for him, that's nonsense!! What if you returned with a cow call but he wouldn't leave his position yet he tried his best to call you too him? Would you recognize that unique bugle? It's situations like this where bulls hang-up!

  Another one---You're bugling an area in hopes of locating a bull, eventually you hear one respond with nothing more than chuckling, (not grunts) what does this mean? I know many of you have been in this very situation, what does a guy do next? What's this bull saying? This bull is not responding to you!!! He's responding because of you!! His chuckling only, shows he's got cows & he's chuckling to gather them up quickly so they can move out if pressured by you or this new bull in the area. You could have received a challenge too, but apparently this guy is not in a defensive mood or his response would have been different. You're better off here to move in quickly on this bulls position & give some soft sweet mews, he'll think you were possibly with this other bull but you'd rather be with this group, there's a great chance he'll come to try & hook you up before the other bull  shows up.

  Here's 2 simple scenarios we've all been in, there tons more, imagine if you were very familiar with the various sounds elk make & when, this really gives you a leg up on what's going on & how to handle it from there! Think about the other sounds mentioned above, do you know when they are used?

  Feel free to ask about any one of them or one of your own.

  I appreciate all your great comments, you have good insight!

  ElkNut1

[high country]

elknut you are getting a little more respect out of me with each post you make. I like your enthusaism, and wish you well.