Oh No!

[SkookumHntr]

I was at the GMAC meeting last month when Dave Ware briefed them on the permit change.  Essentially, you will have 4 anter choices and 4 anterless choices, and earn/loose points separately.  Meaning if you get drawn for an anterless hunt, you don't loose all the points you have accumulated on the anter permits.

And yes, it is about getting more money.

They are offering 15 more raffle deer tags this year.  It is actually only 5 tags, but with this tag you will be able to take a whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer; so they figure that is 15 possible tags.

It was unbeleiveable the amount of money they bring in from these raffle and auction tags.

That is just unbelievable! The worst draw system in the country looks like its going to get way worse! I cant believe it

[billythekidrock]

I'm trying to see what you are saying Bobcat, but I don't.  When limited, it makes people be more selective for what they choose.  Say for elk........there are 4 blues tags available rifle rut.  I choose two of them, not all 4.  My name is out of the running for the 3rd and 4th tag. 

deer rifle.  There are 4 methow units available, or 3 or 4 chelan units.  I have to choose which two I want.  If I miss being drawn for those two, I am out where I could pull my 3rd or 4th try, thus increasing the chance for the applicants for those 3rd or 4th choices. 

In some ways it does decrease your chance of a select unit as you have to put all your eggs in one basket.  If that is what you are meaning.   I am for 1st choice ONLY until all 1st choice applicants are done.  That system ROCKS.  It MAKES people put in for the unit they want, instead of 4 choices and then coming on here and saying I drew ALTA, can someone point out on a map where it IS.

Here is what I saw, first hand, over the years.

The Quinault bull hunt has had 5 permits for many years. Used to be rifle guys in with the general archery season in Sept.

You applied for a permit and if you weren't drawn you missed out on the first few days of the season. There were about 80 applicants every year.

Up the choices to 4 and immediately the the applicants went up over 350 for the same 5 permits and eventually the hunt was moved to October.

When the unit went to AHE the applicant total went down about 80 again. Now after a few years (and losing the Margaret AHE permit) the number of applicants is over 150.

It is not a big bull unit per say so most people put it as a third or fourth choice "hail mary" bull hunt. And many get it. Beating out those who only apply for that unit. Over the years I have seen many of the permits go to third or fourth choices and seen those same people online in a panic because they put in "for something to do".

If one third of the people want it as a third or fourth choice and F&G change it to two choices my odds go from 1 in 30 to 1 in 20. That is huge.

Make the people choose and some unit odds will go up and others will decrease.

[billythekidrock]

I was at the GMAC meeting last month when Dave Ware briefed them on the permit change.  Essentially, you will have 4 anter choices and 4 anterless choices, and earn/loose points separately.  Meaning if you get drawn for an anterless hunt, you don't loose all the points you have accumulated on the anter permits.

And yes, it is about getting more money.

They are offering 15 more raffle deer tags this year.  It is actually only 5 tags, but with this tag you will be able to take a whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer; so they figure that is 15 possible tags.

It was unbeleiveable the amount of money they bring in from these raffle and auction tags.

Crap! 

So now my $5 deer permit application will cost me $10 (if they don't raise the price) if I want to apply for antlered and antlerless hunts?

What if I get drawn for both? I am sure it would be my choice which to fill (but not both) so now there will be less permits available for other applicants?

Where do my current points go? Do I get to appoint them or do they get split between the two?

Not expecting answers. Just venting.

[bobcat]

I'm trying to see what you are saying Bobcat, but I don't.  When limited, it makes people be more selective for what they choose.  Say for elk........there are 4 blues tags available rifle rut.  I choose two of them, not all 4.  My name is out of the running for the 3rd and 4th tag. 

deer rifle.  There are 4 methow units available, or 3 or 4 chelan units.  I have to choose which two I want.  If I miss being drawn for those two, I am out where I could pull my 3rd or 4th try, thus increasing the chance for the applicants for those 3rd or 4th choices. 

In some ways it does decrease your chance of a select unit as you have to put all your eggs in one basket.  If that is what you are meaning.   I am for 1st choice ONLY until all 1st choice applicants are done.  That system ROCKS.  It MAKES people put in for the unit they want, instead of 4 choices and then coming on here and saying I drew ALTA, can someone point out on a map where it IS.

What I'm saying is that overall odds should stay the same, no matter how many choices on the application. Look at it this way. There was 48,274 people who applied for a special elk permit last year. There were 6,946 special permits issued. Odds would be about 1 in 7, meaning that 1 out of 7 people that applied for an elk permit was successful in drawing one. All I am saying, basically, is that if the number of permits and the number of people applying stays the same, the overall odds of 1 in 7 should stay the same.

[bobcat]

What if I get drawn for both? I am sure it would be my choice which to fill (but not both) so now there will be less permits available for other applicants?

In the past they have had doe tags available, that if you were drawn you could purchase a second deer tag to use with that doe tag. I think that may be the reason behind having the two different pools. They weren't getting enough applicants for these second tag doe permits because people didn't want to use their points on a doe tag. Now that you don't have to use your points that you've been saving up for a buck tag, applying for these doe tags could be a good option. Only thing is I'm not sure how many they'll have, if any, because it seems most of them were in the NE part of the state, and I think the last couple of winters have taken care of any excess deer that may have been present over there.

[Viszla]

What we need to do is to back 20 or 30 years ago when we bought an OTC any buck deer and/or any bull elk tag.  All you had to put in for  was a doe/cow tag.  Draw problem solved!  Just shorten the general seasons and let us shoot any buck/bull we want.  It worked great for years and years until the WDFW learned that they could get all that revenue from special permit apps.  They tell us "sure you can't hunt elk, but only a spike, you'll have to buy special permit apps for the next 10 years if you want a big one."

[bobcat]

You guys that keep saying they do the special permits just for the money, I don't think so. If they needed more money they could just raise license and tag fees.

[boneaddict]

I guess it depends how you want to look at the figures.  I see x amount of hats with 4 names in them and I see the same amount hats with two choices or names in them.  To me that would most likely increase my odds.  Think of elk alone.  Do you put your name in the hat with one choice only (blues tag) for that monster bull, or do you put it in there, in the next blues tag, one in the clock and one in the Yakima. 

[boneaddict]

or do both........

If they needed more money they could just raise license and tag fees.

[Skyvalhunter]

don't give them ideas like we expect it or they will. Better they just cut some of the funding to that online services vendor.

[bobcat]

Boneaddict,  Well I guess we will never find out, since it sounds like we're still going to have 4 choices.

[Skyvalhunter]

yea that won't change until the current policy is up in what 3 years.

[bobcat]

Well, they told us to expect changes to the draw system this year but apparently the changes are not to decrease choices but rather just to make separate pools for antlerless permits.

[boneaddict]

which will make odds even worse, because all those names that were being put into hats(the antlerless ones)...now they will be going into the antlered ones AND antlerless ones.   Then to top it off if they get drawn for both, get to choose.  Then what a second and third drawing like the multiseason tags........

[SkookumHntr]

I guess it depends how you want to look at the figures.  I see x amount of hats with 4 names in them and I see the same amount hats with two choices or names in them.  To me that would most likely increase my odds.  Think of elk alone.  Do you put your name in the hat with one choice only (blues tag) for that monster bull, or do you put it in there, in the next blues tag, one in the clock and one in the Yakima. 

Thats exactly how I see it too bone, pretty odvious to me, less names in the hat means better draw odds! I dont see how thats hard to understand, sure some hunts wont change much and it makes people really decide what they want!