2010 WDFW Spring Turkey Hunting Pamplet (2008 Harvest Numbers)

[PA BEN]

My Dads a wheat farmer, at harvest time the turkeys have eaten 30 to 40 ft edge around his fields. Every head of wheat gone, that's money out of his pocket. As far as Oat hay vs barley hay, go tell a beef rancher that and see what kind of answer you get. I'm not trying to bust anybody out on this but it's not that ez.     

[yelp]

My Dads a wheat farmer, at harvest time the turkeys have eaten 30 to 40 ft edge around his fields. Every head of wheat gone, that's money out of his pocket. As far as Oat hay vs barley hay, go tell a beef rancher that and see what kind of answer you get. I'm not trying to bust anybody out on this but it's not that ez.     

Your correct PABEN, The beef growers would have an issue with that.  I know the dairy farmers however have seen a difference with a reduced amount of hay bales that they see scratched apart.  Wild Turkeys are opportunistic feeders, but so are other wildlife.  I have seen wheat field edges in particular get hammered by deer as well as turkeys..so if they are going to get hammered because it is along the edge of habitat..which is why they see the damage in these parts..I say you do some work in this area to either plant more habitat, recrop, or utilize some type of compensation for damages caused..I would prefer these ideas than an enforcement officer simply using a kill permit to make a landowner happy.  That is why I said what I said.  I know it isn't a simple issue.  Some people have different ideas..like planting oak trees, etc..You know how many oak trees you would have to plant in NE WA for there to make a difference...millions, and it would take years before enough mast would even be available.  I would rather pay a landowner to leave a strip here and there for wildlife, where you can.  Even the hay fields..leave a strip..Just some ideas I have.    As a landowner and a local up there what suggestions would you have to reduce damage to hay or crop operations? 

[baldopepper]

PABEN is correct in saying it is a difficult situation-It's been a problem with all wildlife for the over 50 years I've been hunting.  I believe that farming and ranching is a damn tough way to scratch out a living and landowners should be compensated for wildlife damage or reimbursed for enhancing wildlife habitat. My only catch to that, is that they must allow some public hunting to receive it.  I know several large landowners who complain about wildlife  losses as they stand behind their NO TRESPASSING sign.  Hunting is, as we all know, one of the wildlife management tools and to ask to be compensated with no public hunting is asking for a meal without paying.  I'm not advocating throwing your property open to any and all comers, but at least some limited accsess is a must before any compensation should be handed out.

[Wacenturion]

A good portion of any nuisance wildlife problem is a lack of concern by the respective Fish and Wildlife agency.  In our case WDFW.  During the 90's, landowners with problems were taken care of by the removal of birds.  Funny thing was that almost every one of them had the same comment when the actual trapping operation was in place.  That was along the lines of....."don't take them all, I can deal with 50 or so, just not 150."  Pretty typical request...not all, but most.  Relations were good, turkeys were ok.  If a problem arose, they knew they could count on immediate help. 

However when you abandon the landowner who is an intregal part of the resource/recreation triangle(agency, sportsman and landowner), you essentially create problems.  They get pissed because they are trying to make a living and don't have the skills or time to mess with wildlife.  Then figure in that no one seems to get a rats ass about the problem and it goes nuclear.....turkeys become much worse than they are.  Not a good formula for success.

Again, these problems are caused by the politically correct direction of WDFW.  That agency for the most part avoids any physical management, rather opting for think tank operations....meetings and speculations of why things can't be done.  If you think I'm exaggerating, then look at an organization chart and tell me who, and in what numbers of staff are actually in place doing on the ground enhancements.  Don't count most biologists on the ground taking surveys, talking and making excuses, without having any equipment....like tractors, tillers, etc.    Don't count in the wildlife areas managers...they have no budgets and are sadly custodians without the resources to do anything.  There are only a few....a handful.  So just how do you actually think they are managing wildlife.  They're not.  What you will find though is a abundance of "chiefs", those in management positions, going to meetings their entire careers.  Enough said....you get my drift. 

The "safe" ground for most biologists is rhetoric.  They don't have put their money where their mouth is.  Talk is cheap.....the reason for this, the reason for that. bla, bla, bla.  Just so much baloney.  Those landowners have every right to expect more..............and so do you.   

[Wacenturion]

PABEN is correct in saying it is a difficult situation-It's been a problem with all wildlife for the over 50 years I've been hunting.  I believe that farming and ranching is a damn tough way to scratch out a living and landowners should be compensated for wildlife damage or reimbursed for enhancing wildlife habitat. My only catch to that, is that they must allow some public hunting to receive it.  I know several large landowners who complain about wildlife  losses as they stand behind their NO TRESPASSING sign.  Hunting is, as we all know, one of the wildlife management tools and to ask to be compensated with no public hunting is asking for a meal without paying.  I'm not advocating throwing your property open to any and all comers, but at least some limited accsess is a must before any compensation should be handed out.

Baldopepper.............You're absolutely correct, and as a matter of reference, WDFW did indeed have a program that did just that in the 90's.  It is still in place but has been essentially scaled back to a level that cannot do what it was intended to do.  Used to have 21 staff....now 5 or 6.  It offered assistance...i.e. habitat plantings, food plots, payments for various enhancements, access signing, bird releases (turkeys), and many other things in exchange for some form of public access....such as "Feel Free To Hunt", Hunt By Written Permission", Register To Hunt" etc.  Full staffing in rural locations with full compliment of tractors, trailer, tillers, trap and transfer equipment...whatever was needed to get the job done.  Landowners were the #1 priority, to the benefit of wildlife and the sportsman.  Too simple huh.

WDFW didn't think this was a priority when it reorganized it into it's Wildlife Management Division in late 1999 after which they scaled it back opting to do other things............LIKE HIRE MORE UPPER LEVEL STAFF TO GO TO MORE FREAKIN MEANINGLESS MEETINGS!  

Just so you all know, that program before it absorbed by Wildlife Management made turkeys happen, in spite of Wildlife Management.  Fact.

Ever wonder why the turkey faucet turned off....yep your buddies in Wildlife Management.  Apparently they are too busy with other priorities like....new big game permit drawing systems etc.....time well spent huh?

[Tom Tamer]

PABEN is correct in saying it is a difficult situation-It's been a problem with all wildlife for the over 50 years I've been hunting.  I believe that farming and ranching is a damn tough way to scratch out a living and landowners should be compensated for wildlife damage or reimbursed for enhancing wildlife habitat. My only catch to that, is that they must allow some public hunting to receive it.  I know several large landowners who complain about wildlife  losses as they stand behind their NO TRESPASSING sign.  Hunting is, as we all know, one of the wildlife management tools and to ask to be compensated with no public hunting is asking for a meal without paying.  I'm not advocating throwing your property open to any and all comers, but at least some limited accsess is a must before any compensation should be handed out.

In some of the instances we are doing just that and gearing it toward youth hunters, that has been helping. as far as the buffer areas, we are with the Bio studying using native plants along with some hybrids that can withstand our climates.

PABEN and any body that has those issues please contact Kurt Beckley the NWTF State President and I assure you he will do what he can to help. Kurt.beckley@yahoo.com

[Wacenturion]

I really don't want to discourage efforts, as they are worthwhile if nothing more than from an education standpoint and meeting new folks, but with that said, to think that NWTF or other habitat projects on a small scale are going to do much to alleviate nuisance problems is unrealistic.  As Yelp mentioned earlier on the idea of planting oaks and waiting for them to mature...well he explained it pretty well.  There's a whole lot more than planting plants....maintenance for one....weeding out competition, making sure in the case of small oaks seedlings, that they are not shaded out, and on and on, depending on what is planted.  It requires ongoing efforts. 

The small chapter type habitat project is a feel good exercise.  It gets people together, it sounds good, it give the local chapter, state chapter and National Organization statistics that look good in print.  However in reality unless there is a full time directed effort with full time staff with the right equipment doing full time habitat enhancement work in numerous areas, while at the same time maintaining it.....it does very little in benefiting or attracting turkeys away from damage sites.  Sorry.........just being realistic.

Oh, and if a biologist speaks in terms of native plant species, that sends up a red flag with me.  Nothing wrong with native plants depending on what they are and what they return for the effort, but there are a lot of non native plants that are more beneficial and pose no adverse threat to anything.  I call that "politically correct" management.  Is that bio even aware that turkeys are not native....I'll stop there...just one of my pet peeves.

[Tom Tamer]

While ys it is somewhat small in scale and it's not just planting Oaks, while I don't know all by name or can remember the Oak hybrid we look at are doing fine in place in Spokane right now and being a hybrid they have half the growth time of a normal Oak. But it's not just Oak, choke cherry and other winter mast and fruit bearing shrubs are being implementd along with cover foilage and with that granted it takes some time but the process isn't just planting. Effective uses of various hazing to get the Turkeys to use those areas rather than the feed lot are being practiced.

While again it's on a small scale......Oak grows from an Acorn. Starting small is al least starting. And may be more than a feel good, it can show landowners that we are serious about helping them while helping turkeys and that we're willing to do more than just beg to hunt their land. We can't get big scale with out starting somewhere and can't get started at all from the sidelines

[yelp]

While ys it is somewhat small in scale and it's not just planting Oaks, while I don't know all by name or can remember the Oak hybrid we look at are doing fine in place in Spokane right now and being a hybrid they have half the growth time of a normal Oak. But it's not just Oak, choke cherry and other winter mast and fruit bearing shrubs are being implementd along with cover foilage and with that granted it takes some time but the process isn't just planting. Effective uses of various hazing to get the Turkeys to use those areas rather than the feed lot are being practiced.

While again it's on a small scale......Oak grows from an Acorn. Starting small is al least starting. And may be more than a feel good, it can show landowners that we are serious about helping them while helping turkeys and that we're willing to do more than just beg to hunt their land. We can't get big scale with out starting somewhere and can't get started at all from the sidelines

TAMER..

My Opinion on this matter..no offense meant.


As a NWTF member and a past state and local NWTF chapter president,  I applaud you for the efforts with this matter.  Very tough issue. On a local site by site basis small projects may have some impact that show landowners that we care.  I suggest Wild turkey hazing and EDUCATION  may work better than these small habitat projects.  HABITAT Projects ..  In my opinion paying landowners to leave crops that turkeys frequent (OAT HAY FIELDS), PRESCRIBED BURNING can help create quality native plants available at different times of the year and possibly cost the NWTF less than establishing buffers that have the same overall benefits.

QUESTIONS TO ASK WA NWTF BIO...Turkey diets require lots of food. MAST...HOW MANY ACORNS or choke cherries WILL A WILD TURKEY EAT PER DAY?  (X) LOCAL TURKEY POPULATIONS...

I am going to make it as simple as I can...An example...Knowing turkeys the way I know them and habitat..OVERALL FOCUS/OBJECTIVE..To plant habitat that is attractive to Wild Turkeys to draw them away from a problem area..right?  So NWTF will convince a landowner that they have an idea to haze wild turkeys and plant lots of hybrid oak trees, choke cherry and others..that will reduce damage and draw turkeys away from his oat bales they are currently scratching apart?(common problem in the NE). 

Creating buffers...What you are doing in biological terms is creating edge. There are several ways to create it. Again in my opinion..the easiest way and the most effective way to deal with this problem.. by leaving field edges (where wildlife feels secure to frequent) 100' out or maybe whole field and pay the landowner to leave it, pay for him to seed it every year.  Make it worth his time. You could purchase OAT HAY from another source to replace what the strip normally produced..bale wise or what landowner uses needs?

Oak trees even hybrids will take a few years to produce some acorns..right?  So I would make sure that the landowners understand it isn't an immediate fix.  The wild turkeys that frequent the area will still seek out the oats period.  IT IS THE EASIEST EFFORT FOR THE HIGHEST REWARD! 

Understand..that efforts in the past netting, trap and transfer..worked.  Again not being critical, but realize that there are several ways to skin a cat.

My two cents on the matter eventhough they are from the sidelines..I have donated 12 years to the NWTF and lots of time and money more than you know.

[Wacenturion]

Just a thought on oaks.................

Oak species and weather

About 70 oak species occur within the United States.  These species are classified in groups as either "White Oaks" or "Red Oaks", based on their flowering biology and the time required to produce mature acorns.  Common species in the "White Oak" group include: white oak ( Quercus alba ), swamp white oak ( Q. bicolor ), burr oak ( Q. macrocarpa ), overcup oak ( Q. lyrata ), post oak ( Q. stellata ), chestnut oak ( Q. prinus ), and chinkapin oak ( Q. muehlenbergii ).  Common species in the "Red Oak" group include: northern red oak ( Q. rubra ), southern red oak ( Q. falcata ), black oak ( Q. velutina ), pin oak ( Q. palustris ), scarlet oak ( Q. coccinea ), and blackjack oak ( Q. marilandica ). 

Oak species vary in the age at which they produce their first acorn crop, the age and diameter at which they produce their largest crops, and how often they produce abundant crops (Table 2).  In general, most oak species produce their first crop of acorns when the trees are 20 to 25 years old.  They produce their largest crops when they are between 50 and 200 years old and when they are greater than 20 inches in diameter.  On average, most oak species produce an abundant acorn crop once every three to five years. 


   
   

[Wacenturion]

Tamer.........I hear what you're saying, and I'm am not trying to belittle anyone's efforts, just trying to make you understand that those warm and fuzzy conservation organization "marketing themselves as doing great things projects" are just that.......marketing to an audience.  Sorry to be blunt about it. 

Again there are some positive benefits, like going to banquets and being with and meeting new friends...having a good time.  So are habitat projects where folks come together for a common cause.
However...........what both really do for wild turkeys overall is questionable in my opinion.  But that's a whole other story.

[Wacenturion]

Yelp hit in on the head........................

"The wild turkeys that frequent the area will still seek out the oats period.  IT IS THE EASIEST EFFORT FOR THE HIGHEST REWARD!"

Kind of like the path of least resistance.  In winter time conditions, wildlife in general are going to utilize the food source with the biggest bang for the buck.  It's all about conserving energy and calories.  You could have tons of native species, that will be used, but in times of extremes the birds will bypass them for an easier food target.  One that requires less effort to get and uses less energy to actually consume it.

On a sidenote..............there are lots of native food bearing plants that already exist in these nuisance areas................that's why we have nuisance problems....the habitat is excellent.  Does that obviously shed some light on the issue?  Think on that one for awhile....kind of like a what came first "chicken or egg" debate.  Just food for thought........pun intended.  

[Tom Tamer]

I really appreciate both your opinions and havesome understanding of both of your pasts in the NWTF and Appauld both your sacrifices and knowledge on this area, again I'm no biologist and not nearly as affluent with Turkeys as both of you. As far as the things both of you brought up here, may already be being said by our Bio, I may have forgotten parts....A.D.D.. I do leave the " Heavy thinking" to those who have that knowledge while my contribution is more the heavy lifting part and trying to help get more involvment whether it from the NWTF side ( which I think you guys know from past threads I'm on the Side of the Turkey and not any one group) But if we can get more folks knowledgable and involved maybe we can make a difference with the WDFW....If we don't all will be lost because as you two are well aware of it's like But sooner or later we'll knock  a brick or two loose.
 Yelp and Wacent I do truly value both your opinions and am not taking any offense to these threads, I think the way we have had these in the past while may be rehashing some things, are positive. I fear if we( The People) Not just the NWTF don't keep vigilant on this the WDFW would let the turkeys go by the way side. And while I am now complete and udder Turkeynut....I also see it in my Daughter 8, and that's where my drive to help these birds lie. And I'm open to any suggstions as to what to do. As far as the NWTF is concerned I wonder how much of paying the landowners to grow crops directly for the turkeys would cost us annually. It may have to be a route we persue, case by case basis.
 I do agree that all animals are going to go after the easy food everytime, it's nature, but I think hazing and if we could get some hunters, albeit youth or not would help greatly.
  But let's keep the dialogue going I'm learnig and that's what I get on these forums for is to learn and meet new folks.

Thanks Travis

[yelp]

I really appreciate both your opinions and havesome understanding of both of your pasts in the NWTF and Appauld both your sacrifices and knowledge on this area, again I'm no biologist and not nearly as affluent with Turkeys as both of you. As far as the things both of you brought up here, may already be being said by our Bio, I may have forgotten parts....A.D.D.. I do leave the " Heavy thinking" to those who have that knowledge while my contribution is more the heavy lifting part and trying to help get more involvment whether it from the NWTF side ( which I think you guys know from past threads I'm on the Side of the Turkey and not any one group) But if we can get more folks knowledgable and involved maybe we can make a difference with the WDFW....If we don't all will be lost because as you two are well aware of it's like But sooner or later we'll knock  a brick or two loose.
 Yelp and Wacent I do truly value both your opinions and am not taking any offense to these threads, I think the way we have had these in the past while may be rehashing some things, are positive. I fear if we( The People) Not just the NWTF don't keep vigilant on this the WDFW would let the turkeys go by the way side. And while I am now complete and udder Turkeynut....I also see it in my Daughter 8, and that's where my drive to help these birds lie. And I'm open to any suggstions as to what to do. As far as the NWTF is concerned I wonder how much of paying the landowners to grow crops directly for the turkeys would cost us annually. It may have to be a route we persue, case by case basis.
 I do agree that all animals are going to go after the easy food everytime, it's nature, but I think hazing and if we could get some hunters, albeit youth or not would help greatly.
  But let's keep the dialogue going I'm learnig and that's what I get on these forums for is to learn and meet new folks.

Thanks Travis

What is the BIO's Name and contact info..if you have it?  Send me a PM if you will..I heard the last bio was fired recently??  ANy truth to that?  I appreciate your comments to Travis.  Keep the Faith.  Thanks.

[Wacenturion]

You mean the new biologist they recently hired, got fired........wonder why. Don't see him listed anymore on the NWTF for Idaho, Washington or Oregon.  I have a wild guess....